The skyPRAM. You know, for babies.
― Blog is a concept by which we measure our pain (Jon Lewis), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:14 (thirteen years ago) link
http://rgr-static1.tangentlabs.co.uk/images/bau/97819333/9781933368559/0/0/plain/bomb-the-suburbs-graffiti-race-freight-hopping-and-the-search-for-hip-hops-moral-center.jpg
― suburbaniatee (Aerosol), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:15 (thirteen years ago) link
i think the big thing about this thread is that the truth is that people choose to live where they do for inherently selfish reasons, this should not be a shock for anyone. some peeps flee to the suburbs for racist or city fear or whatever motiviations, some do it for safety or school reasons (still selfish), i did it because it gave me what i wanted and was actually and ecologically better choice (and btw eco-concerns are also selfish). when i lived in the city, i did it for totally selfish reasons too (proximity to shit going on, etc.)
the thing thats getting to people about iatee's argument i think is that it seems to be built on the idea that city-dwellers are making an altruistic/moral/selfless choice, which is disingenuous.
xxpost hahaha Jon otm!
― apparently not the band, but the lifestyle (jjjusten), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:15 (thirteen years ago) link
I live in NE, and never go to SW, so I just tend to forget the Skytram exists.
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:15 (thirteen years ago) link
There's so much stigma against buses in a lot of places. Is light rail an attempt to rehabilitate people's perceptions of PT as clean and modern without fixing the real problem(s)?
And I guess you don't want to just add buses if your streets are already overloaded, poorly planned, and not working in whatever sense...although in that case shouldn't you be spending the money on fixing your roads instead?
― the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:16 (thirteen years ago) link
we have one light rail line and i like it way better than bus. i just wish we had like 6 more of them.
― harbl, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:17 (thirteen years ago) link
People are reactionary, racist, and vain wherever they grow up; subdivisions don't make them so, no matter what Neil Peart might think.
I dunno if you reread what I've actually posted here, I've said basically nothing about race or culture w/r/t the suburbs. not that those things don't play a(n important!) role in the history of the suburbs, but I really have only been talking about the economic/political incentive structures + the environmental impacts - those are the things that matter to me on a personal level. I am a product of a suburb, so I don't think that suburbs make you evil.
― iatee, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:18 (thirteen years ago) link
The light rail here is a godsend, fyi.
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:18 (thirteen years ago) link
what city are you in harbl?
― cherry blossom, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:19 (thirteen years ago) link
baltimore
― harbl, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:20 (thirteen years ago) link
there's a lot of small bore stuff u can do to make bus experience better, like gps locators on buses keyed to subway-style "arrival in" displays at stops. make it more train-like and predictable and ridership increases (maybe)
― goole, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:20 (thirteen years ago) link
I never ride the bus here, except for maybe like once a month. Strictly bike and MAX for me.
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:22 (thirteen years ago) link
bus problems (breakdowns, lateness) take on a whole new meaning when you live in the frozen death hole that i call home xxposts
― apparently not the band, but the lifestyle (jjjusten), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:23 (thirteen years ago) link
Ok Darin, now that I'm actually reading you correctly, they extended the streetcar down to the South Waterfront, including the Skytram station. No idea what the bus situation there is cause I never go that way.
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:23 (thirteen years ago) link
light rail >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>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buses
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:24 (thirteen years ago) link
okay I should have avoided bringing this down to a personal level - I believe that the idea of the suburbs is selfish on a macroscopic human-sized level. I don't think many people think about these things when they decide where to live - 'selfish' was a poor (/troll-y) word choice. suburbs are 'inefficient to the point that they are not something that can exist on a global level, thus not something that we can act like we are 'owed' as a human on this planet'
― iatee, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:24 (thirteen years ago) link
buses suck because they are underfunded, they don't inherently suck. they can be fast and cheap and efficient.
― iatee, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:25 (thirteen years ago) link
iatee, what about rural dwellers? I'm pretty sure they use more energy than urban-dwellers, too. Should they all move to the city, too?
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:26 (thirteen years ago) link
Is light rail an attempt to rehabilitate people's perceptions of PT as clean and modern without fixing the real problem(s)?
Laurel is pretty much otm, I think that the main reason people were so interested in light rail is that buses are mediocre, seldom available, and have a bad rap around here. They're wisely relocating our transit mall (a block downtown where all of the bus lines converge) to a new station near the revitalized nightlife area, so I'm hoping that means that we'll have a lot more bus traffic in a decade. And, you know, a bus or two that runs after 7PM in a place I want to go.
Light rail is awesome but it doesn't exactly go anywhere useful unless you build long tracks throughout the already congested city.
― postmodern infidel(ity) (mh), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:27 (thirteen years ago) link
The light rail here goes all the way from one end of the metropolitan area to the other. It pretty much takes me 90% of anywhere I need to go.
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:28 (thirteen years ago) link
― goole, Wednesday, June 9, 2010 1:20 PM
these are great
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mildlydiverting/2449462/
― cherry blossom, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:28 (thirteen years ago) link
that, or we could continue spending billions of dollars building them their own bridges, roads and spending most of our homeland security money there.
which is, well, what we're gonna do, so,
― iatee, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:29 (thirteen years ago) link
dude that is completely insane
― apparently not the band, but the lifestyle (jjjusten), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:30 (thirteen years ago) link
(lol hooray for the senate)
― iatee, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:30 (thirteen years ago) link
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:31 (thirteen years ago) link
i am honestly unable to respond to what you seem to be arguing here at this point because i cant even take your points seriously anymore.
― apparently not the band, but the lifestyle (jjjusten), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:32 (thirteen years ago) link
fwiw most rural dwellers have pretty shitty roads and the only things that get maintained are interstates and major highways, the majority of which carry mostly semi traffic. Obviously what we need is REAL rail between rural areas.
― postmodern infidel(ity) (mh), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:32 (thirteen years ago) link
^^^
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:33 (thirteen years ago) link
IE Amtrak not pretending to be a for-profit entity but instead a public utility
― Blog is a concept by which we measure our pain (Jon Lewis), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:33 (thirteen years ago) link
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, June 9, 2010 3:26 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark
historically this is what rural dwellers have done all on their own!
― goole, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:34 (thirteen years ago) link
ha, well yeah
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:34 (thirteen years ago) link
Actually, just more freight lines between areas would be huge. Imagine what would happen if we could somehow convince Wal-Mart to do most of their warehouse->store distribution via freight train.
― postmodern infidel(ity) (mh), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:34 (thirteen years ago) link
anyway the "energy use" of rural life is sort of thrown out of whack since they are growing everybody else's food
― goole, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:35 (thirteen years ago) link
holy christ
― Filmmaker, Author, Radio Host Stephen Baldwin (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:35 (thirteen years ago) link
what is crazy about "rural americans have lifestyles that are massively subsidized by the federal government"?
― iatee, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:35 (thirteen years ago) link
we need robots to grow the food and package it for us
― harbl, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:36 (thirteen years ago) link
goole: true
lol @ afred's occasional incredulous interjections itt
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:36 (thirteen years ago) link
i don't get these light rail opinions
― harbl, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:37 (thirteen years ago) link
urban and suburban americans have lifestyles non-starvation options that are massively subsidized by rural dudes for starters xxxpost
― apparently not the band, but the lifestyle (jjjusten), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:38 (thirteen years ago) link
lol @ alfred being too left-wing for the democratic party and yet a status quo apologist w/ this stuff
― iatee, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:38 (thirteen years ago) link
also i am trying to imagine where you are going to put all these people in the city
― apparently not the band, but the lifestyle (jjjusten), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:39 (thirteen years ago) link
the idea that we'd all starve to death if the government didn't subsidize certain rural areas is also pretty lol. farmers around the world loling along.
― iatee, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:39 (thirteen years ago) link
you are like the king of strawmen!
― harbl, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:40 (thirteen years ago) link
i suppose we could just sprawl out and build some new urbs outside the city limits for them to live in
xxpost yeah see now you are just being willfully obtuse
― apparently not the band, but the lifestyle (jjjusten), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:40 (thirteen years ago) link
Cuz in your mind "left wing" and "status quo apologist" are irreconcilable? Lead the revolution into Costco.
― Filmmaker, Author, Radio Host Stephen Baldwin (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:40 (thirteen years ago) link
This is almost the case already? There isn't much farming done by farmers at this point in South Dakota where my Mom's family comes from.
― Blog is a concept by which we measure our pain (Jon Lewis), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:40 (thirteen years ago) link
no i mean literally robots
― harbl, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:41 (thirteen years ago) link
If there's anything the "left wing" got consistently wrong in the twentieth century, it's trying to change people's minds about perceptions, biases, and the other elements which make us human.
― Filmmaker, Author, Radio Host Stephen Baldwin (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:41 (thirteen years ago) link
"Rural" is a lot more nebulous than "suburban," guys. There are a lot of different sorts of rural, everything from living on a farm to living in a small town but not being directly connected to farming to just having an acreage and working elsewhere (or being retired).
― postmodern infidel(ity) (mh), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:42 (thirteen years ago) link
iatee, you are basically the urbanist equivalent of get-off-my-lawn type dudes who grouse about welfare queens taking all their tax dollars.
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:42 (thirteen years ago) link