turkey goin ham
― ᵒ always toasted, never fried (crüt), Monday, 31 May 2010 18:59 (2 years ago) Permalink
o shi
― transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 19:00 (2 years ago) Permalink
xpost. I really enjoyed 'Power, Faith, and Fantasy: America in the Middle East: 1776 to the Present' by Michael B. Oren. yet it concerns it's self with america's involvement with the middle east as a whole. But israel and palestine are both explored in depth in the book.
― Jacob Sanders, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:06 (2 years ago) Permalink
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/books/review/Rodenbeck.t.html here's the nytimes review of the book.
― Jacob Sanders, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:07 (2 years ago) Permalink
Geez, if I made a list of things I wish I could delete from this board, idealistic talk about Israel/Palestine from when I was just getting out of college would be #1.
This, though, I think we talked about this kind of thing somewhere else:
"They wanted violence. ... They are directly responsible for the violence and the deaths that occurred."
This totally reactive, stop-hitting-yourself position sometimes seems like the entire intellectual bedrock of the IDF. "We didn't kill you; you committed suicide by doing something we asked you not to." Just pretending to be robotically morally neutral, agency-free.
― oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Monday, 31 May 2010 19:23 (2 years ago) Permalink
yeah that's certainly the most infuriating part -- "we had no choice!!"
― J0rdan S., Monday, 31 May 2010 19:27 (2 years ago) Permalink
I never really know what press to turn to when these I/P conflicts arise--everything is just so deeply partisan and emotive either way unlike few other topics. It's hard to know precisely what to believe.
Like in Europe, so many people are flooding to the streets protesting, which just doesn't happen when other countries commit war crimes (e.g. North Korea sinking that ship last week). Does it touch such a nerve with people because of the whole bitter religious backdrop, or just because people know the U.S. (and therefore the UN) will do fuck all about it, so they feel that have to make a huge noise?
― nevermind312, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:27 (2 years ago) Permalink
Sometimes they even manage to sound aggrieved and annoyed about it, like it's so burdensome how people keep making them kill them. "Can't a guy get through a single day of stopping basic resources from reaching people without someone coming along and forcing us to kill them? It's just so rude."
― oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Monday, 31 May 2010 19:28 (2 years ago) Permalink
I call it Look What You Made Me Do syndrome - total abuser MO.
― I eat truffle fries because my captors say they'll kill me if I don't (suzy), Monday, 31 May 2010 19:29 (2 years ago) Permalink
why can't we have both
― gbx, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:30 (2 years ago) Permalink
Sometimes they even manage to sound aggrieved and annoyed about it, like it's /so burdensome/ how people keep making them kill them. "Can't a guy get through a single day of stopping basic resources from reaching people without someone coming along and /forcing/ us to kill them? It's just so rude."
nabisco is otm
― gbx, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:31 (2 years ago) Permalink
It's the Bull Connor school of law enforcement
― Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:31 (2 years ago) Permalink
anyone i've ever met who has a real bee in their bonnet about palestine has been anti-american, far-left, and/or muslim; europe has a lot of people like that.
― No disre but maryanne hobbs is peng trust me (jim in glasgow), Monday, 31 May 2010 19:31 (2 years ago) Permalink
Does it touch such a nerve with people because of the whole bitter religious backdrop, or just because people know the U.S. (and therefore the UN) will do fuck all about it, so they feel that have to make a huge noise?
not really: the UN is doing fuck-all about north korea torpedoing a warship/90 people being blown up in pakistan on friday/____________ but for some reason I/P engages people in a special way
on the matter of press releases, neither side really covers themselves in glory, but this is kind of a side issue
― transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 19:31 (2 years ago) Permalink
There are a number of obvious reasons why Israel is held to a higher standard than say North Korea.
1. The USA supplies large amounts of arms and aid to Israel
2. Israel proports to be a democracy that respects human rights
3. Israel was founded on principles of human rights and a need to give an oppressed people a safe haven
And more beyond that, I'm sure.
― Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:37 (2 years ago) Permalink
4. china is on the security council
― transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 19:38 (2 years ago) Permalink
Israel was founded on principles of human rights
:/
― ᵒ always toasted, never fried (crüt), Monday, 31 May 2010 19:38 (2 years ago) Permalink
Israel does seem to be heading toward greater isolation and rogue status, a la North Korea.
― Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:39 (2 years ago) Permalink
― ᵒ always toasted, never fried (crüt), Monday, May 31, 2010 7:38 PM (31 seconds ago)
Maybe I should say, Isreal's inception coincided with a desire to increase human rights.
― Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:40 (2 years ago) Permalink
i hope the UN security council, comprising moral giants like um the UK(!), US(!!), russia(!!!), and china(!!!!), condemns israel pdq
― transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 19:43 (2 years ago) Permalink
I think if israel was founded on a desire to increase human rights they must've have turned a blind eye towards those who already were living there, much like how america was founded.
― Jacob Sanders, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:43 (2 years ago) Permalink
tbf, Israel's has a good human rights record for its own citizens--it's very much a liberal democracy (gay rights, free speech/press, fair judiciary etc.). It's just how it treats Gaza...
― nevermind312, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:44 (2 years ago) Permalink
― Jacob Sanders, Monday, May 31, 2010 8:43 PM (27 seconds ago) Bookmark
undeniably, but also a lot like other instances of forced expulsions of ethnic groups much closer in place and time to the mandate of the late 1940s -- iraq, egypt, libya, etc
― transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 19:47 (2 years ago) Permalink
tbf the USA shares almost all the same faults as Israel, although not in quite so glaring a way. In the matter of human rights criticism, it surely acts as a proxy and a buffer state for the USA, as it does in so many other ways.
― Aimless, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:52 (2 years ago) Permalink
Being a democracy is pretty important here - means that what happens in this pretty brutal part of the world gets scrutinised in Israel and not so much in other countries. They still crucify and behead people in Saudi Arabia, but you never hear much about it.
― Ismael Klata, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:53 (2 years ago) Permalink
Israel's has a good human rights record for its own citizens
Members of this Israeli government have advocated fundamentally reducing the civil/human rights of Israeli Arabs.
From what I understand, the situation in Israel is quite different than say ten years ago. The secular, liberal segment of Israeli society is losing. The orthodox, extremist segment is winning. The "middle" has shifted pretty far right. Democracy in Israel may well be dying.
― Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:55 (2 years ago) Permalink
aipac sent out an email with this subject line:
Subject: Ynet: Israeli troops ambushed at Sea - Ron Ben Yishai details clash aboard Gaza-bound vessel
― max, Monday, 31 May 2010 20:03 (2 years ago) Permalink
oh, aipacws
― ᵒ always toasted, never fried (crüt), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:09 (2 years ago) Permalink
not to be confused with "oh, ws aipac"
― ᵒ always toasted, never fried (crüt), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:12 (2 years ago) Permalink
wait wait there's no problem gaza's markets are crammed fullhttp://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/6044639/peace-convoy-this-was-an-islamist-terror-ambush.thtml
― stet, Monday, 31 May 2010 20:18 (2 years ago) Permalink
― oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Monday, May 31, 2010 3:23 PM (59 minutes ago)
yeah this is so otm
― k3vin k., Monday, 31 May 2010 20:29 (2 years ago) Permalink
― spud webs (am0n), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:30 (2 years ago) Permalink
― Super Cub, Monday, May 31, 2010 8:55 PM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark
doubt many people would deny that israel has a particularly shitty government right now
but "democracy in israel may well be dying"? really?
― transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:33 (2 years ago) Permalink
My dad's been wanting me to read this for a couple of years.
― Filmmaker, Author, Radio Host Stephen Baldwin (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:38 (2 years ago) Permalink
And if the commandos were attacked with bars, (or throwing people off boats at some point in the altercation) how many people do you think you would have to shoot with assault rifles to make them stop?
― textbook blows on the head (dowd), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:39 (2 years ago) Permalink
That's an ugly scene, no doubt. It's totally understandable that the soldiers feared for their lives. IMO, that doesn't change the basic issue. Storming an aid flotilla full of protesters is not okay. It's not an acceptable way of dealing with this situation.
That also looks like a very poorly conceived operation. Dropping soldiers into the arms of an angry mob is not what I'd call a precision, surgical raid.
― Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 20:40 (2 years ago) Permalink
xpost
― textbook blows on the head (dowd), Monday, May 31, 2010 9:39 PM (2 seconds ago) Bookmark
what's your answer, to the nearest decimal point?
indeed, but, well, it's a bit different than the "they landed and opened fire on sleeping civilians" line put out by the convoy earlier
― transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:41 (2 years ago) Permalink
1?
― textbook blows on the head (dowd), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:43 (2 years ago) Permalink
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v25/n16/judith-butler/no-its-not-anti-semitic
one thing, and like sorry if this is totally born out of ignorance on my part, but one of the things that I have never understood abt the yoking of anti-semitism w/ palestine conflict issues is that it seems to me at least to suppress how anti-arab/muslim sentiment might factor into western perception. In a) Israel's seemingly increased responsibility as a comparatively "western" middle eastern country versus a more exoticized Palestine whose cultural strangeness diminishes responsibility, although at the same time b) rendering Israelis more identifiable (for one thing you always meet loads of them staying in youth hostels, i guess american universities) as against the Palestinian population who still feel like a population that is "out there" and whose reality seems somewhat neutralised by cultural difference/geographic distance? Like "is this a thing" is what i mean?
― plax (ico), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:50 (2 years ago) Permalink
Dropping soldiers into the arms of an angry mob is not what I'd call a precision, surgical raid.
yeah, srsly
― i tried to think of a pas/cal pun but then i got bored (Tape Store), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:55 (2 years ago) Permalink
right. I'm not sure what has happened to the IDF's skill in operations--it used to do some fucked up things for sure, but it always managed to carry things out well. Now it just botches everything. idgi.
― nevermind312, Monday, 31 May 2010 21:10 (2 years ago) Permalink
MPAC keeping things reasonable i see
― former moderator, please give generously (DG), Monday, 31 May 2010 21:31 (2 years ago) Permalink
Shocking that anyone would confuse anti-Israel sentiment with anti-Semetic sentiment.
― Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 21:35 (2 years ago) Permalink
Btw, lol @ Sleeve above calling me an idiot Israel defender a few posts after I quote Arendt on Eichmann (!!) to describe Israel's relationship to Gaza. Like holy shit.
― Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 21:39 (2 years ago) Permalink
ugh at the swastika. i fucking hate the equating of what israel does with nazism - it's so blatantly anti-semitic.
― nevermind312, Monday, 31 May 2010 21:39 (2 years ago) Permalink
yeah im not saying its not a thing, just something i don't really understand the roots of (beyond the obvious but still) and wondering how I can understand it w/in a broader elaboration of cultural intolerance etc.
xxp
― plax (ico), Monday, 31 May 2010 21:39 (2 years ago) Permalink
radio 4 just had SAS novelist andy mcnab on, criticising the idf's tactics: "see, what you want to do is swamp the ship, not drip-feed your soldiers in, get it over quicker, safer for everyone".
― naglpuss (c sharp major), Monday, 31 May 2010 21:42 (2 years ago) Permalink
plaxico, what's your question? You realize that there's a super long historical history of anti-Semitism that predates Israel's creation by many many years, right?
― Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 21:46 (2 years ago) Permalink
Ugh at using a fucking octopus again. At least it keeps the brand identity going I guess. The blue octopus is Churchill, by the way - not sure why he gets the star halo, other than it being a nazi poster and therefore maybe not entirely logical.
― Ismael Klata, Monday, 31 May 2010 21:50 (2 years ago) Permalink