Israel to World: "Suck It."

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dude - by all accounts the IDF stormed a humanitarian aid boat, slaughtered 10-19 people and barely escaped with a scratch. i think it's pretty clear they fucked up somehow

k3vin k., Monday, 31 May 2010 14:34 (4 years ago) Permalink

oh well if they fucked up then clearly it's beyond rationalization

we must use the most emotive language possible in not defending it

transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 14:38 (4 years ago) Permalink

sounds like a pretty clean operation, actually.

May be half naked, but knows a good headline when he sees it (darraghmac), Monday, 31 May 2010 14:38 (4 years ago) Permalink

Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev accused the leaders of the flotilla of looking for a fight.

"They wanted to make a political statement. They wanted violence," according to Regev, who said Israel wanted a peaceful interception of the ships trying to break Israel's blockade of Gaza. "They are directly responsible for the violence and the deaths that occurred."

k3vin k., Monday, 31 May 2010 14:40 (4 years ago) Permalink

so if they knew they are there to provoke, why attack them? Israel should know by now this kind of stuff plays straight in Gazan hands.

nevermind312, Monday, 31 May 2010 14:49 (4 years ago) Permalink

We don't know that they "attacked". They were enforcing an existing (admittedly bullshit) law. Do you seriously expect Israel to cave on it just because someone tested them? For every IDF disgusting abuse of power there's some really callous guerrilla strike by Palestinians or their sympathizers. We can get self-righteous when we know what actually happened, but being so ready to point fingers in such a historically-complex situation is rash. We can get self-righteous when we know what actually happened.

Fetchboy, Monday, 31 May 2010 16:58 (4 years ago) Permalink

think its probably more important at this point to take the helpful step of making heady accusations and questioning other peoples motivations

max, Monday, 31 May 2010 17:03 (4 years ago) Permalink

honestly, think the only way israel comes out of this not looking like psychos is if there was live fire or some other kind of legitimate threat posed by the activists. honestly wouldn't doubt there was non-passive struggling between some activists and the troops (ppl get hysterical, shit happens, not all activists are actually pacifists), but i find it deeply, deeply unlikely that what happened could justify the IDF acing 10-19 civilians

anyway RIP flotilla ppl, it's pretty horrible regardless who shot first

gbx, Monday, 31 May 2010 17:04 (4 years ago) Permalink

LOL @ drunken copy n paste double.

Fetchboy, Monday, 31 May 2010 17:04 (4 years ago) Permalink

um is there any book thats a pretty good non partisan (well...) overview of israeli/palestinian conflict for ppl who are sick of "not understanding the context" of shit that goes down there

plax (ico), Monday, 31 May 2010 17:13 (4 years ago) Permalink

i mean zionism and the connection b/w jewishness is something that i only get on a very basic level that doesn't really resolve much between what happens in the old testament and what's on the news now also

plax (ico), Monday, 31 May 2010 17:16 (4 years ago) Permalink

honestly, think the only way israel comes out of this not looking like psychos is if there was live fire or some other kind of legitimate threat posed by the activists. honestly wouldn't doubt there was non-passive struggling between some activists and the troops (ppl get hysterical, shit happens, not all activists are actually pacifists), but i find it deeply, deeply unlikely that what happened could justify the IDF acing 10-19 civilians

anyway RIP flotilla ppl, it's pretty horrible regardless who shot first

― gbx, Monday, May 31, 2010 6:04 PM (56 minutes ago) Bookmark

having looked at a number of vids, it does seem basically that the israeli soldiers were attacked immediately on landing on the boat. now, landing on the boat unprotected was probably not a good idea, but then hitting soldiers with metal poles is also p stoopid. so i think there was a legitimate threat to the soldiers, but it's still a complete clusterfuck.

transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 18:02 (4 years ago) Permalink

There's talk that Turkey will send navy boats with the next convoy, but the only sources are Indian TV, so I don't know how likely it is. Be a hell of an escalation if they did.

stet, Monday, 31 May 2010 18:46 (4 years ago) Permalink

the rich-historical-irony-o-meter wd p much go through the roof

transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 18:54 (4 years ago) Permalink

turkey goin ham

ᵒ always toasted, never fried (crüt), Monday, 31 May 2010 18:59 (4 years ago) Permalink

o shi

transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 19:00 (4 years ago) Permalink

xpost. I really enjoyed 'Power, Faith, and Fantasy: America in the Middle East: 1776 to the Present' by Michael B. Oren. yet it concerns it's self with america's involvement with the middle east as a whole. But israel and palestine are both explored in depth in the book.

Jacob Sanders, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:06 (4 years ago) Permalink

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/books/review/Rodenbeck.t.html here's the nytimes review of the book.

Jacob Sanders, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:07 (4 years ago) Permalink

Geez, if I made a list of things I wish I could delete from this board, idealistic talk about Israel/Palestine from when I was just getting out of college would be #1.

This, though, I think we talked about this kind of thing somewhere else:

"They wanted violence. ... They are directly responsible for the violence and the deaths that occurred."

This totally reactive, stop-hitting-yourself position sometimes seems like the entire intellectual bedrock of the IDF. "We didn't kill you; you committed suicide by doing something we asked you not to." Just pretending to be robotically morally neutral, agency-free.

oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Monday, 31 May 2010 19:23 (4 years ago) Permalink

yeah that's certainly the most infuriating part -- "we had no choice!!"

J0rdan S., Monday, 31 May 2010 19:27 (4 years ago) Permalink

I never really know what press to turn to when these I/P conflicts arise--everything is just so deeply partisan and emotive either way unlike few other topics. It's hard to know precisely what to believe.

Like in Europe, so many people are flooding to the streets protesting, which just doesn't happen when other countries commit war crimes (e.g. North Korea sinking that ship last week). Does it touch such a nerve with people because of the whole bitter religious backdrop, or just because people know the U.S. (and therefore the UN) will do fuck all about it, so they feel that have to make a huge noise?

nevermind312, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:27 (4 years ago) Permalink

Sometimes they even manage to sound aggrieved and annoyed about it, like it's so burdensome how people keep making them kill them. "Can't a guy get through a single day of stopping basic resources from reaching people without someone coming along and forcing us to kill them? It's just so rude."

oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Monday, 31 May 2010 19:28 (4 years ago) Permalink

I call it Look What You Made Me Do syndrome - total abuser MO.

I eat truffle fries because my captors say they'll kill me if I don't (suzy), Monday, 31 May 2010 19:29 (4 years ago) Permalink

why can't we have both

gbx, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:30 (4 years ago) Permalink

Sometimes they even manage to sound aggrieved and annoyed about it, like it's /so burdensome/ how people keep making them kill them. "Can't a guy get through a single day of stopping basic resources from reaching people without someone coming along and /forcing/ us to kill them? It's just so rude."

nabisco is otm

gbx, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:31 (4 years ago) Permalink

It's the Bull Connor school of law enforcement

Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:31 (4 years ago) Permalink

Like in Europe, so many people are flooding to the streets protesting, which just doesn't happen when other countries commit war crimes (e.g. North Korea sinking that ship last week). Does it touch such a nerve with people because of the whole bitter religious backdrop, or just because people know the U.S. (and therefore the UN) will do fuck all about it, so they feel that have to make a huge noise?

anyone i've ever met who has a real bee in their bonnet about palestine has been anti-american, far-left, and/or muslim; europe has a lot of people like that.

No disre but maryanne hobbs is peng trust me (jim in glasgow), Monday, 31 May 2010 19:31 (4 years ago) Permalink

Does it touch such a nerve with people because of the whole bitter religious backdrop, or just because people know the U.S. (and therefore the UN) will do fuck all about it, so they feel that have to make a huge noise?

not really: the UN is doing fuck-all about north korea torpedoing a warship/90 people being blown up in pakistan on friday/____________ but for some reason I/P engages people in a special way

on the matter of press releases, neither side really covers themselves in glory, but this is kind of a side issue

transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 19:31 (4 years ago) Permalink

There are a number of obvious reasons why Israel is held to a higher standard than say North Korea.

1. The USA supplies large amounts of arms and aid to Israel

2. Israel proports to be a democracy that respects human rights

3. Israel was founded on principles of human rights and a need to give an oppressed people a safe haven

And more beyond that, I'm sure.

Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:37 (4 years ago) Permalink

4. china is on the security council

transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 19:38 (4 years ago) Permalink

Israel was founded on principles of human rights

:/

ᵒ always toasted, never fried (crüt), Monday, 31 May 2010 19:38 (4 years ago) Permalink

Israel does seem to be heading toward greater isolation and rogue status, a la North Korea.

Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:39 (4 years ago) Permalink

Israel was founded on principles of human rights

:/

― ᵒ always toasted, never fried (crüt), Monday, May 31, 2010 7:38 PM (31 seconds ago)

Maybe I should say, Isreal's inception coincided with a desire to increase human rights.

Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:40 (4 years ago) Permalink

i hope the UN security council, comprising moral giants like um the UK(!), US(!!), russia(!!!), and china(!!!!), condemns israel pdq

transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 19:43 (4 years ago) Permalink

I think if israel was founded on a desire to increase human rights they must've have turned a blind eye towards those who already were living there, much like how america was founded.

Jacob Sanders, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:43 (4 years ago) Permalink

tbf, Israel's has a good human rights record for its own citizens--it's very much a liberal democracy (gay rights, free speech/press, fair judiciary etc.). It's just how it treats Gaza...

nevermind312, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:44 (4 years ago) Permalink

I think if israel was founded on a desire to increase human rights they must've have turned a blind eye towards those who already were living there, much like how america was founded.

― Jacob Sanders, Monday, May 31, 2010 8:43 PM (27 seconds ago) Bookmark

undeniably, but also a lot like other instances of forced expulsions of ethnic groups much closer in place and time to the mandate of the late 1940s -- iraq, egypt, libya, etc

transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 19:47 (4 years ago) Permalink

tbf the USA shares almost all the same faults as Israel, although not in quite so glaring a way. In the matter of human rights criticism, it surely acts as a proxy and a buffer state for the USA, as it does in so many other ways.

Aimless, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:52 (4 years ago) Permalink

Being a democracy is pretty important here - means that what happens in this pretty brutal part of the world gets scrutinised in Israel and not so much in other countries. They still crucify and behead people in Saudi Arabia, but you never hear much about it.

Ismael Klata, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:53 (4 years ago) Permalink

Israel's has a good human rights record for its own citizens

Members of this Israeli government have advocated fundamentally reducing the civil/human rights of Israeli Arabs.

From what I understand, the situation in Israel is quite different than say ten years ago. The secular, liberal segment of Israeli society is losing. The orthodox, extremist segment is winning. The "middle" has shifted pretty far right. Democracy in Israel may well be dying.

Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 19:55 (4 years ago) Permalink

aipac sent out an email with this subject line:

Subject: Ynet: Israeli troops ambushed at Sea - Ron Ben Yishai details clash aboard Gaza-bound vessel

max, Monday, 31 May 2010 20:03 (4 years ago) Permalink

oh, aipacws

ᵒ always toasted, never fried (crüt), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:09 (4 years ago) Permalink

not to be confused with "oh, ws aipac"

ᵒ always toasted, never fried (crüt), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:12 (4 years ago) Permalink

wait wait there's no problem gaza's markets are crammed full
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/6044639/peace-convoy-this-was-an-islamist-terror-ambush.thtml

stet, Monday, 31 May 2010 20:18 (4 years ago) Permalink

This totally reactive, stop-hitting-yourself position sometimes seems like the entire intellectual bedrock of the IDF. "We didn't kill you; you committed suicide by doing something we asked you not to." Just pretending to be robotically morally neutral, agency-free.

― oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Monday, May 31, 2010 3:23 PM (59 minutes ago)

yeah this is so otm

k3vin k., Monday, 31 May 2010 20:29 (4 years ago) Permalink

spud webs (am0n), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:30 (4 years ago) Permalink

Members of this Israeli government have advocated fundamentally reducing the civil/human rights of Israeli Arabs.

From what I understand, the situation in Israel is quite different than say ten years ago. The secular, liberal segment of Israeli society is losing. The orthodox, extremist segment is winning. The "middle" has shifted pretty far right. Democracy in Israel may well be dying.

― Super Cub, Monday, May 31, 2010 8:55 PM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark

doubt many people would deny that israel has a particularly shitty government right now

but "democracy in israel may well be dying"? really?

transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:33 (4 years ago) Permalink

xpost. I really enjoyed 'Power, Faith, and Fantasy: America in the Middle East: 1776 to the Present' by Michael B. Oren. yet it concerns it's self with america's involvement with the middle east as a whole. But israel and palestine are both explored in depth in the book.

My dad's been wanting me to read this for a couple of years.

Filmmaker, Author, Radio Host Stephen Baldwin (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:38 (4 years ago) Permalink

And if the commandos were attacked with bars, (or throwing people off boats at some point in the altercation) how many people do you think you would have to shoot with assault rifles to make them stop?

textbook blows on the head (dowd), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:39 (4 years ago) Permalink

That's an ugly scene, no doubt. It's totally understandable that the soldiers feared for their lives. IMO, that doesn't change the basic issue. Storming an aid flotilla full of protesters is not okay. It's not an acceptable way of dealing with this situation.

That also looks like a very poorly conceived operation. Dropping soldiers into the arms of an angry mob is not what I'd call a precision, surgical raid.

Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 20:40 (4 years ago) Permalink


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