Israel to World: "Suck It."

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Just to preempt, I think the whole Gaza situation is totally fucked up, and that there is a lot more Israel + Egypt could and should be doing for the people living there. Either/both governments should stepped forward to work with any humanitarian mission if they are that concerned about weapon/rocket smuggling. That neither did, and just told the mission that they can't deliver the aid, is super cold hearted and basically evil by way of Hannah Arendt thoughtlessness. That said, if you want to deliver aid to Gaza, and you already know it's likely that Israel will step in and stop you (at least an even shot, some shipments are allowed through, some are halted), don't carry weapons. That a) sets you up for a violent conflict and b) justifies what Israel was complaining about in the first place -- that you're bringing weapons into Gaza -- and totally undermines any humanitarian mission you might have. And if you're going to carry weapons (maybe you need them in case of pirates? idk), don't open fire on the freaking army. How could that possibly end well?

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

The statement quoted in Haaretz says they were attacked with live fire.

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

and protestors say they only passively resisted

ᵒ always toasted, never fried (crüt), Monday, 31 May 2010 07:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

NYT:

Channel 10, a private station in Israel, quoted the Israeli Trade Minister, Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, as saying between 14 and 16 people had been killed on one of the flotilla ships. He said on Israeli Army Radio that commandos boarded the ship by sliding down on ropes from a hovering helicopter, and were then struck by passengers with “batons and tools.”

I think you are missing the point of the flotilla. It's not simply a matter of delivering much-needed supplies to Gaza. The point is to violate the Israeli blockade. The point is to draw attention to Israel's policies.

Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

I guess it's possible commandos killed innocents only passively resisting, and then the army covered up for a bunch of psychos in their army, but sounds very unlikely to me. Israel has a functioning press. I don't think that's the kind of thing the government could get away with. (But I could be wrong!)

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

Considering it's just "he said she said" at this point and will probably stay that way, history is written by the victors, etc.

Fetchboy, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

I guess it's possible commandos killed innocents only passively resisting, and then the army covered up for a bunch of psychos in their army, but sounds very unlikely to me.

Have you no knowledge of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict?

xpost

Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

If the purpose was to provoke Israel into murdering civilians, then mission accomplished, I guess. It seems like a lot of strategy is provoking Israel to do something horrific and then hoping something changes because of it. Maybe this'll be the catalyst for complete change in the relationship between Israel and Gaza -- or maybe it'll just be another really tragic, morally repulsive moment in the Middle East that does nothing to change the status quo or make life better for the people living in Gaza.

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

Super Cub, I know plenty about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. Do you know how Israeli Press works? Most press in Israeli is very cynical and holds the government to account often. It seems unlikely to me that you could get away with lying about something like this.

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

Well, Ha'aretz is basically Israel's answer to The Guardian and is normally the go-to paper for a liberal viewpoint. But what they've done is to Xerox a government press release/statement without digging further, which may in itself be a comment on the behaviour of the military.

I eat truffle fries because my captors say they'll kill me if I don't (suzy), Monday, 31 May 2010 07:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I don't think the immediate report tonight will be the final story. But if soldiers opened fire on passive resisters, I imagine that'll be in Ha'aretz this week.

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

Well it only happened a few hours ago, miles out at see - not sure what kind of coverage you're expecting yet

Ismael Klata, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

um, sea

Ismael Klata, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

If you know a lot about Israel and this conflict, how is it inconceivable to you that the IDF could be covering up a botched operation that resulted in civilian deaths? The last 20 years are riddled with instances of alleged IDF abuses and accusations of cover-ups. It's a mainstay of this conflict.

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index_e.asp

xpost

Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

And yeah, this happened like 5 hours ago.

Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

idk Super Cub. Like I said, I guess it's possible they are lying about there being live fire resistance. Just super short-sighted to lie about something like that imo. There were a lot of people on the flotilla. It's not the kind of thing you can conspire about one way or another. I don't see all of the activists making up a story and sticking to it, and, as that website you just linked points out, it's hard to get soldiers to lie about their roles in a conflict.

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 07:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

tbh, I really hope there was live fire. If Israel killed those people, even if they were wielding batons or whatever, it's going to end up really fucked up. Especially if Raed Salah was a casualty. There could be another Intifada, and if you can't trust the Israeli army to handle the flotilla situation, you definitely don't want them trying to handle rioters and protesters all over the place. Things could get massively screwed up really quickly.

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 08:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

I don't want to debate you on this, so this is the last post I'll make on the subject.

I think you are woefully ignorant of the dynamics of this conflict. It's entirely possible that the IDF was fired upon, but it's ridiculous to say that the IDF wouldn't use grossly disproportionate force and then try to cover it up (or at least try and justify it). That is pretty much the IDF's standard operating procedure when it come to Gaza. That was the basic strategy in the Gaza War.

xpost

Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 08:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

suzy, one of several pieces in today's Haaretz bitterly criticising the Israeli military: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/gaza-flotilla-drives-israel-into-a-sea-of-stupidity-1.292959

Daniel Giraffe, Monday, 31 May 2010 08:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

"(or at least try and justify it)"

I don't disagree with this. But there's obv a huge gap between justifying something and covering it up.

Anyway, you're right. It's not worth debating over. The whole thing just has me sick to my stomach and it's 4:20 here when I should be sleeping instead of reading about this.

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 08:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

Oh, woah. It's 4:20.

Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 08:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

this is obviously completely fucked up

mordy otm itt

I think you are missing the point of the flotilla. It's not simply a matter of delivering much-needed supplies to Gaza. The point is to violate the Israeli blockade.

indeed: both israel and egypt said they would be fine with the supplies being landed and conveyed into gaza by truck

history mayne, Monday, 31 May 2010 08:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

I try to stay off these threads because Mordy is constantly defending all manner of inexcusable Israeli atrocities, but I strongly disagree with your defense of his blatant idiocy, and Super Cub is the one who's otm here.

bug holocaust (sleeve), Monday, 31 May 2010 08:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

i think it's too early in the day to call this an 'inexcusable atrocity' but perhaps you have fresh information

history mayne, Monday, 31 May 2010 08:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

up his sleeve

sir mountebank (velko), Monday, 31 May 2010 08:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

where the fuck do you see mordy's 'blatant idiocy' n e way? think you're just throwing down tough words

history mayne, Monday, 31 May 2010 08:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

Sleeve, Mordy brings a worthwhile perspective to these threads! Starting with a refusal to call others idiots for arguing for a different picture of the region.

I eat truffle fries because my captors say they'll kill me if I don't (suzy), Monday, 31 May 2010 09:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

Guardian's Jerusalem correspondent: http://twitter.com/harrietsherwood

I eat truffle fries because my captors say they'll kill me if I don't (suzy), Monday, 31 May 2010 09:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, Mordy's a lot of things, but captain save-an-Israel he's not. He might have more invested in it as a state than some of us, but the investment seems mainly of the "i hope one day they'll stop being assholes" variety, and in this case it's "I hope they're not killing unarmed people because that will lead to even more tragedy". A pretty reasonable position, imo.

Fetchboy, Monday, 31 May 2010 10:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

One of my very brightest Jewish friends from school is Israeli-born and heavily invested in Zionism (let's just say a cousin of hers has been in a coma for four years). I am reluctant to discuss it with her because her emotionalism around I/P is completely at variance to how coolly and logically she looks at any other issue.

I eat truffle fries because my captors say they'll kill me if I don't (suzy), Monday, 31 May 2010 10:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

I basically feel the same about those heavily invested in anti-Zionisim

Ismael Klata, Monday, 31 May 2010 11:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

so this isn't very good. also feeling more like IDF overkill.

Gee, Officer (Gukbe), Monday, 31 May 2010 14:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

hate to say it but we pretty much saw this coming, can't even for a minute begin to think of rationalizing or defending this massacre though

k3vin k., Monday, 31 May 2010 14:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

again, i'd wait till we had a clearer picture of what happened before trying to 'rationalize' it

if it's true that the israeli commandos landed on the ship and just began unloading into the sleeping civilians (as claimed), then indeed that would be indefensible

transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 14:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

it'd be indefensible imo even if the civilians weren't 'sleeping' - and it seems there have been a handful of posts itt that have already tried to justify and rationalize it

k3vin k., Monday, 31 May 2010 14:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

idk though like - up to 19 people on the boat killed w/ many more wounded compared to 2 attackers wounded - what did they have, slingshots?

k3vin k., Monday, 31 May 2010 14:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

pretty standard IDF casualty numbers imo

Gee, Officer (Gukbe), Monday, 31 May 2010 14:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

iatee, Monday, 31 May 2010 14:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

So it's not short for InDeFensible?

StanM, Monday, 31 May 2010 14:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

it'd be indefensible imo even if the civilians weren't 'sleeping' - and it seems there have been a handful of posts itt that have already tried to justify and rationalize it

― k3vin k., Monday, May 31, 2010 3:25 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

again, we really don't know what happened. according to the convoy's spokespeople, the civilians were asleep though.

transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 14:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

dude - by all accounts the IDF stormed a humanitarian aid boat, slaughtered 10-19 people and barely escaped with a scratch. i think it's pretty clear they fucked up somehow

k3vin k., Monday, 31 May 2010 14:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

oh well if they fucked up then clearly it's beyond rationalization

we must use the most emotive language possible in not defending it

transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 14:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

sounds like a pretty clean operation, actually.

May be half naked, but knows a good headline when he sees it (darraghmac), Monday, 31 May 2010 14:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev accused the leaders of the flotilla of looking for a fight.

"They wanted to make a political statement. They wanted violence," according to Regev, who said Israel wanted a peaceful interception of the ships trying to break Israel's blockade of Gaza. "They are directly responsible for the violence and the deaths that occurred."

k3vin k., Monday, 31 May 2010 14:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

so if they knew they are there to provoke, why attack them? Israel should know by now this kind of stuff plays straight in Gazan hands.

nevermind312, Monday, 31 May 2010 14:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

We don't know that they "attacked". They were enforcing an existing (admittedly bullshit) law. Do you seriously expect Israel to cave on it just because someone tested them? For every IDF disgusting abuse of power there's some really callous guerrilla strike by Palestinians or their sympathizers. We can get self-righteous when we know what actually happened, but being so ready to point fingers in such a historically-complex situation is rash. We can get self-righteous when we know what actually happened.

Fetchboy, Monday, 31 May 2010 16:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

think its probably more important at this point to take the helpful step of making heady accusations and questioning other peoples motivations

max, Monday, 31 May 2010 17:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

honestly, think the only way israel comes out of this not looking like psychos is if there was live fire or some other kind of legitimate threat posed by the activists. honestly wouldn't doubt there was non-passive struggling between some activists and the troops (ppl get hysterical, shit happens, not all activists are actually pacifists), but i find it deeply, deeply unlikely that what happened could justify the IDF acing 10-19 civilians

anyway RIP flotilla ppl, it's pretty horrible regardless who shot first

gbx, Monday, 31 May 2010 17:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

LOL @ drunken copy n paste double.

Fetchboy, Monday, 31 May 2010 17:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

um is there any book thats a pretty good non partisan (well...) overview of israeli/palestinian conflict for ppl who are sick of "not understanding the context" of shit that goes down there

plax (ico), Monday, 31 May 2010 17:13 (3 years ago) Permalink


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