Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

Didn't mind that we knew the negotiations would be shot to shit - just added to the gloomy view of humans in this one

yeah, this is dramatic irony – something old who used to be big on, pre rusty era

That said: I didn't react to this episode as strongly as the rest of you. The only scenes that really bothered me were

1) the abortive vivisection
2) rory's dying words. for godssakes, just let him kick the bucket. either he'll be back (ehh) or he won't (ehh) but the impact of his death was mitigated by his last gasping platitudes.
3) the rushed negotiations. if more had been done to convey lengthiness, rigor, or great debate i would have been convinced of the necessity of these scenes. but Amy's bored-ass slouching on the table only undermined the seriousness of the goal and highlighted the character's immaturity (though this, i wonder, might not be out of place if timey-wimeyness and Amelia are somehow implicated)
4) the stupid sonic screwdriver/gunplay crap

http://imgur.com/wUsp3.gif

The ending was great (TARDIS-through-crack, not Rory's Best Bits in dream sequence flashback that was horrible), the rest not so much.

Really wanted to punch Amy in the face for being terrible zingmonster all the way through ("Clingy much?"), but DeadRory seemed to bring her back round again, though now she's forgotten him, it'll all be shite again.

haven't seen any of this series but really not getting the amy-hate

I don't get it either. Maybe her prettiness is affecting my judgment.

She's annoying as fuck and doesn't do anything except zing and sass about, even in mortal danger. And she's mean to lovely (dead) Rory.

Which of the classic serials on YouTube are worth watching?

http://www.youtube.com/show?p=Ps0e32nFzs0&s=1

I've seen Sensorites, Krotons and Carnival of Monsters.

Androzani probably the best of those. Twin Dilemma for lolz only. Mandragora also good, and I quite like Full Circle.

haven't seen any of this series but really not getting the amy-hate

Try watching, you might get it.

Masque of Mandragora! Full Circle is pretty good even though it introduced Adric, and Caves of Androzani is really good too. Planet of the Spiders is way overlong but the last episode is wonderful.

On Amy, I feel like she's nearly a brilliant portrait of a kind of troubled personality I've met - manic-energetic, curious, restless, up for things; but suddenly sullen and aggressive. Dangerous to those around them, and solipsistic. (I don't think I'm trying to describe bipolar; maybe one of those Borderline PD/Narcissism things that everyone's always calling everyone else nowadays). But it isn't really working if that's what's intended (because of her acting? script trouble? the need to make her conventionally likeable?), and I can't tell if it even is intended - maybe she's just meant to be hotlegs the zing machine. I really liked her early on; now my hope is waning.

However, I like looking at Karen Gillan very, very much.

She's annoying as fuck and doesn't do anything except zing and sass about, even in mortal danger.

I agree with second point, but not the first. I find her zinging and sassing entirely bearable.

She basically pokes about in dangerous places, is not even remotely fazed by tootling about space and time with a bloke she met in her kitchen when she was 7, deals with danger by quipping sassily at the bringer of danger, manages to solve and understand everything really really quickly and cleverly when wiser men/timelords than her faff about ineffectively going "umm..." because we are met to thing she is all ZOMG AMAZING just like what Rose was, and she wears tights to go to Rio so she is clearly mental.

She's very pretty though, yes. But sarky intelligent zingers, even hott ones, don't work as kissograms, do they? I also have HUGE issues around her relationship with Rory.

i think of her as the genetic average of donna and rose. but i sort of liked rose, so go figure.

Matt Smith's jumper is making me want a tube of refreshers.

met to thing

meant to think, obv. Amy has used up all the common sense and ZOMG AMAZINGness for the entire population of Inverness, leaving me a gibbering fool.

yeah i didn't mind amy at all until she started being an asshole to rory, who may be a boring doofus but is otherwise, a sweetheart. Really annoying in this episode in particular.

James' gif needs more love, Ladytron.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGf4MzMYIXs

let's be fair though, what the heck is so likeable about Rory? he's mostly another boring hangdog clingy guy, he doesn't he even have half the spirit of Mickey as far as likeable losers go

He's normal and nice. The Whoniverse needs more normal and nice people in it (it's why I used to like Jackie Tyler more than Rose as well)

I really liked Meera Syal in this one, btw.

let's be fair though, what the heck is so likeable about Rory? he's mostly another boring hangdog clingy guy, he doesn't he even have half the spirit of Mickey as far as likeable losers go.

This is why I have problems with people who think he's "lovely" -- he seems massively codependent, it's not like I dislike the guy but he doesn't seem particularly admirable in any way either.

Just watched, no real problems. Hardly amazing, but I'm still looking at what this series brings - some hard messing around with time (in a constructive way, not the vague and almost indifferent RTD way), underground cities/forests in spaceships/vampires/slight sense of dislocation and mystery in the series arc (so so much better than the f'ing Bad Wolf stuff), genuine chills (first ep of this one was better for that), and the focus on the adventure rather than the emo stuff. I know the emo stuff is kind of part of it now, but the adventure and strangeness shd always be the priority imo.

Much better than the Glam Who and the Supervillain Roadshow of RTD era.

It's not all amazing, but I mind the way it's bad (this slightly trudgy episode for instance) than when the last series was bad.

I quite like the old Davidson/Pertwee feel to it as well. (Those tin gas guns were pure old skool).

Still like Matt Smith v much as well. Amy -

manic-energetic, curious, restless, up for things; but suddenly sullen and aggressive

This, totally. How she is portrayed feels v natural to me, like a few girls I know (in a good way), and I think it's pretty intentional. And I think it works quite well with the Doctor persona - stroppiness, uncertainty, cavalier unthinking courage, working under the teacherly Doctor, as if she's not sure what's fun and what's serious.

Music is utterly dreadful.

glad they killed off Gary Neville

Actually, I thought some of Amy's zings (especially the totally inappropriate "clingy" one) were quite funny and well-delivered. And I sort of like the idea that she half-loves, half-patronises Rory and hasn't quite made up here mind about him, because (to me at least) that strikes me as quite a realistic portrayal of how some relationships work (as opposed to Rose getting googly-eyed over David Tennant). Whether that's appropriate for Doctor Who, and whether the writing and the acting quite sell the idea, I'm not sure. But I do like her Larry David foot-in-mouthiness.

Incidentally, while that cut scene from Confidential was pretty incidental to the plot, I thought that bit of the Doctor saying "I really like him" about Rory was very sweet, and it might have given more gravitas to the death scene if they'd kept it in.

Also, Matt Smith still totally charming, if not quite always-not-wooden.

And I sort of like the idea that she half-loves, half-patronises Rory and hasn't quite made up here mind about him

She's supposed to be getting married to him in some version of tomorrow, she should have decided by now!

(Actually, that's the bit I find the most true-to-life.)

Yeah, the problem with the story so far is that the viewer probably needs the expository scenes and isn't getting enough of them for a grasp on why Amy acts the way she does. I don't necessarily have any issues with her diffidence or sarcasm, or the way she seems to hedge bets on her relationship. She's insecure on so many levels.

Something annoying on Confidential is how the actors have this wooden/corporate way of referring to episodes which weirds me out, since previous actors seemed to be in geek heaven compared to these.

I guess she's insecure because the doctor pissed off and forget to come back for her for years (twice!) and she doesn't appear to have a family or anything, I get all that. Doesn't make her any more likeable or watchable though.

I think Rory is really irritating, but that's because they gave the guy only one dramatic concern: insecurity about Amy actually liking him after the Doctor showed up. It's kind of unfair to only present him this way & expect us to be sentimental about him when he dies.

I'm actually quite pleased whenever Rory turns up, but it's hard to get sentimental about him when you know he's going to come back in the finale (I'm guessing)...

SPOILER ALERT:

not too big a spoiler

but

but

My husband tells me he's listed in the cast for the finale on IMDB. For whatever that is worth.

it didn't help that they just killed rory off two episodes ago, so the drama of the moment was a bit undercut by "what, this again?"

i'm also still annoyed that "amy's choice" copied dead-boyfriend lines from torchwood, because when it comes to being sad over your dead boyfriend, amy doesn't hold a candle to gwen.

Haven't thought this through much, but has Rory been important to stuff that will unravel now that he's been wiped from existence? None of the stuff in Amy's Choice actually happened, but the Vampires of Venice stuff wouldn't have panned out had he not been around, same with The Eleventh Hour, surely?

I doubt they're going that far, at least with the style of timey-wimey wiped-from-existence stuff that's been going on this season. Those things still happened, just sidestepping his involvement. (Ignoring the likely deus ex machina where everybody lives we'll probably get at the end.)

Oh, I'm sure he's coming back.

I had missed the whole Amy's clock going wrong thing (went from 11.59am on 25 June to 12.00pm on 26 June) and the thing about Rory's ID card (NHS staff card issued in 1990, when he'd have been 8 if we're in 2010, which I think we possibly are again, though I'll defer to aldo if I'm wrong there), so I don't think it's outwith the realm of possibility that there's weird time shit going on and that'll let him come back.

The NHS card I'm pretty sure was revealed to just be a prop goof, not intentional. Very Lost!

aah, but was it? There was a close-up and everything!

Moffat claimed he had no idea about it and it must have been a mistake.

Or, as those watching the episode might call it, the place you've just been negotiating to live in and have spend the whole story talking about going to and/or the place you've been going to already.

They're a) soldiers, who do what they've been trained to, and b) total deadshits. And again giving Chibnall too much credit, once hibernated, an infected 'lurian isn't going to spread the infection any further.

PS woooow that is way too much JNT on that Youtube channel! MOAR PERTWEE, ADD HINCHCLIFFE AND WILLIAMS

Rory did have a pretty circa 1990 idea of what cool hair is like in the dream episode.

it didn't help that they just killed rory off two episodes ago, so the drama of the moment was a bit undercut by "what, this again?"

OTM, was the only lame item out of what I thought was a great episode ending. When Rory comes back - and I can't imagine he wouldn't - I'm looking forward to his showing newfound maturity by kicking Amy to the curb. It's no wonder he's so useless when she lives to tear him down.

Effects, makeup and costumes really nice in this episode!

i'm enjoying this season but seriously, this is the most neurotic i've ever seen this show get - everyone's letting their issues take over! they need to land on a psychiatrist planet. i think the crack in the wall/space/time might close up with some shock therapy and zoloft.

Emo Who for realz.

Was mightily impressed by Amy's meltdown...very affecting. Though it does bug me that she would show such a reaction supposedly borne of love when she is so seemingly not in love with him when he's around. Irritatingly flighty I think is how I would characterize her.

Bit pleased with myself for calling Ambrose as the lizard-killah. And boy she really did manage to get even less likeable, amazed, wasn't sure i could like old sourface less...but oh how I did. Bleh. Poor Elliot. Leave home as soon as you can kid, your mam is a bint with a silly name.

I suspect I may have overprimed myself by thinking that Stephen Moffat running Doctor Who was going to result in the best TV ever made. But still very much enjoying it all--though the distant waving Amy/Rory stuff seemed very underdeveloped. And I still don't get what was so important about that deleted scene. Can somebody please explain to dense me?

I thought it was just that the Doctor said that he liked Rory very much, something that hasn't been evident from anyone really except for when he keeps dying all the time and Amy suddenly realises he's OK (only to go back to zinging and not caring when he came back after the dreamlord death).

The waving Rory/Amy was just to show that timey wimey stuff can change the future - they'd seen future them and then when Rory died it was just her seeing future her.

I'm so nicking "hotlegs the zing machine" for future use.

The important thing about the deleted scene is the "time is not fixed wrt you" bit the Doctor says to Amy.

It's still worth remembering the Amy (and Rory) we see waving in the distance are wearing their clothes from Amy's Choice. Other things to remember: Amy's stairwell in front of the door she can't see in The Eleventh Hour. The Doctor's jacket when he comes out of the forest in the Weeping Angels one. The graveyard just before Elliot disappears. Amy's memories of the Daleks.

There are no ducks in the duck pond.

Yeah, the doctor's jacket suggests he went back and told wee Amelia something then nipped back to comfort Amy in the forest. Waht is graveyard thing? I presume the daleks have gone into that crack (but why does she remember the clerics?)

btw, I have to go out, so won't see any answers until later, but these are things that puzzle me.