That's it! The only ism I want to come out of your mouths is jism. Overacademic Bullshit Must Die.

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you never see people whine 'sports journalists just write for other sports journalists', and the average sports column assumes alot more of its readers intelligence and interest in sports than the average music column does of its readers interest in music

I'm sorry, the "average sports column" is total dreck! What are you thinking of here?

Kris (aqueduct), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:19 (twenty years ago) link

I think I would've had much better luck finding out through my teachers what happened during the Second Peloponnesian War.

These days even the teachers would have to google for that.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:20 (twenty years ago) link

I first heard about G.G. Allin through an article in my local paper about Squirrel Bait.

hstencil, Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:21 (twenty years ago) link

James, why are you so upset about this thread? Good lord. Don't worry, posting stills from the "Heartbreaker" video doesn't count as ludicrious psuedo-intellectualism. The whole thing about the sports column is bizarre, by the way, Kris is OTM.

Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:21 (twenty years ago) link

I think that article ran when I was like 11-12 or something.

hstencil, Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:22 (twenty years ago) link

So it wasn't as if I could look up "Robyn Hitchcock" as easily as I could look up "redoubtable" back then, just to name an example.

Hey, me neither, but that was part of the fun/mystique! You found out stuff however you could, bit by bit, maybe going through the microfiche Rolling Stone collection at the library, or reading a 100-word review in a Trouser Press guide.

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:22 (twenty years ago) link

"The only possible starting point: the strange fact of one's own invincible apathy—that if the proofs were proved and God presented himself, nothing would be changed. Here is the strangest fact of all.

Abraham saw signs of God and believed. Now the only sign is that all the signs in the world make no difference. Is this God's ironic revenge? But I am onto him."

Walker Percy (tracerhand), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:24 (twenty years ago) link

Math is hard!

Miccio Barbie, Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:25 (twenty years ago) link

Kris - I'm thinking of how the average page 2 column is gonna be fairly 'impenetrable' to anyone who doesn't follow sports, but how this doesn't hinder them since they assume that hey, if you're reading a sports column, just maybe you're actually interested in (and know something about) sports. They can take certain things as a given and move on from there. Meanwhile most (95% - Miccio: "not enough!") pop journalism is writing for 13 year olds.

James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:28 (twenty years ago) link

I did that too, Jody (microfiche, trouser press, under 12, all that). And I ended up as a rock crit person. So did you. Again, it has not been proven that non-rockcrits care to dig this deeply. Or should have to.

I want a miccio barbie so bad.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:28 (twenty years ago) link

My mo/ther died/when I/was five
And all/I did/was sit/and cry
I cried/and cried/and cried/all day
Until/the neigh/bors went/away

Madonna (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:28 (twenty years ago) link

dear Miccio,

I am not a rock critic. I post and read ILM. I don't really care if someone uses "overacademic bullshit" language or not. So quit assuming you speak for anybody else.

Thanks,

hstencil

hstencil, Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:31 (twenty years ago) link

Again, it has not been proven that non-rockcrits care to dig this deeply.

Was I a rockcrit when I was 12? No.

Anyway, your argt stinks. "I can't name any --> they don't exist."

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:31 (twenty years ago) link

Miccio, should there be NO music criticism geared toward people who are very interested in music?

James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:33 (twenty years ago) link

He states that the right of nature is a system of every man for himself: in essence, man is a self-serving beast at heart like any other, and he will do what is necessary within his own judgment to preserve his own power and existence , or as Hobbes puts it, without a sovereign power to uphold law, "the notions of right and wrong, justice and injustice have there no place." It is an existence of amorality by the standards of those living in a modern society, because in the natural state, man lives by his passions—appetite, desire, love, aversion, hate, joy, and grief—and these passions result in emotions like confidence, anger, covetousness, ambition, lust, and fear, not the more societal constructs of justice and injustice. In the natural structure, man's passions lead to a constant struggle to gain and retain the status of alpha male: "to have servants, is power; to have friends, is power" . The idea of gaining foothold over another human being is, in Hobbes's view, a deeply defined animalistic instinct held by all men equally.

Overacademic Bullshit (mlescaut), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:35 (twenty years ago) link

it should be written all good and stuff, Blount.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:35 (twenty years ago) link

(look at all the intellectuals squirm!)

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:36 (twenty years ago) link

(yeah you really got us now!)

hstencil, Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:37 (twenty years ago) link

(We look smarter when we write in brackets!)

Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:39 (twenty years ago) link

(they're parantheses)
/overacademic bullshit

(and like i was talking about you, hstencil)
/good-natured ribbing

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:41 (twenty years ago) link

James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:42 (twenty years ago) link

leave my Neuropsych. professor outta this!

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:44 (twenty years ago) link

Your professor is Fred Durst?! Sweet!

Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:47 (twenty years ago) link

Nope. My professor is that wig.

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:51 (twenty years ago) link

TS: Anthony DeCurtis vs. Skip Bayless?

A: Even my dad knows Skip Bayless is an idiot.

Kris (aqueduct), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 01:53 (twenty years ago) link

Page 2 is typical sportswriting like Freaky Trigger is typical pop writing.

Kris (aqueduct), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 01:56 (twenty years ago) link

However, I hear Skip Bayless's Mexican restaurants in Chicago are excellent.

oops (Oops), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 02:56 (twenty years ago) link

It's Taco Bell or nothing for me

Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 03:02 (twenty years ago) link

the worst is like, from my current vantage point within academia, the age of theory is over but unfortunately people are sloooow at accepting that b/c if you stake yr career on producing indecipherable postmodern readings that show poof!, the text deconstructs itself (and so what?), you have a pretty strong incentive to keep indecipherable postmodern theory around.
don't get me wrong though, I am all for having a big deleuze rave party inside(and outside) a baroque edifice so we can all revel in the flashing lights and allegories of perception.

daria g, Wednesday, 21 May 2003 04:16 (twenty years ago) link

dem is some big words, dem is

oops (Oops), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 04:19 (twenty years ago) link

The really fucking funny part is that nobody cited on this thread is "postmodern" in any usable sense.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 04:36 (twenty years ago) link

yeah, my sides are splitting

oops (Oops), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 05:02 (twenty years ago) link

What was meant as a firework thrown in the middle of a boring study hall TWO DAYS ago is now being treated like a serious stance that must be dealt with humorlessly.

If academia has proven anything, it's that throwing a firework into a boring study hall always produces more boring study halls than it does fireworks. Did you really expect us all to say 'shit, he's right!', throw the A through K section of our bookshelves out into the street and never come back?

And Daria, isn't theory the development of ideas? How can you get rid of that in an academic environment?

(and someone please answer one more question: what thread sparked this one? i want to read it)

Dave M. (rotten03), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 05:57 (twenty years ago) link

arguing with people who are afraid to say what their point is, classic or dud?

Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 13:21 (twenty years ago) link

Did you really expect us all to say 'shit, he's right!', throw the A through K section of our bookshelves out into the street and never come back?

YES. Do it, now.

Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 13:31 (twenty years ago) link

I LOVE intellectual, analytical writing about music and culture. But I admit I do get frustrated with some strains of that writing.

For instance, relying on jargon or buzzwords or theorists without taking the time to explain them to those who are not intimately acquainted with them. This doesn't mean writing for a 13-year-old: this simply means writing outside yourself. I'm looking forward to seeing Sterling's article on Jay-Z and Bakhtin -- but since I only have a cursory understanding of dialogism, I'm hoping that he'll elucidate Bakhtin's theories somewhat to get me more interested and involved in the piece. (It will also allow him to better support his argument.) There's also just plain bad writing that's dense or labored or whatever, and I think we all agree that Xgau, in his attempts to be pithy and allusive, sometimes fails to communicate his basic message.

Often this all comes across as elitist because readers think I-don't-get-it-I-guess-I'm-dumb, but too often it's just the critic's laziness (or unwillingess) to explicate. And if we are indeed talking primarily about journalism (instead of academic criticism that's explicitly written for an inside crowd), then this seems worthy of critique.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 15:24 (twenty years ago) link

Also: Orwell and Adorno to thread.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 15:28 (twenty years ago) link

(Or was I being too allusive there?)

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 15:30 (twenty years ago) link

And a shout-out: The ILXor who best exemplifies what I want out of music writing (i.e. well-explicated AND very insightful) = Nabisco. (Apologies to those of you who I haven't read enough of.)

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 15:34 (twenty years ago) link

Nabisco's some sorta reasoning demigod, even if he must suffer for invoking me (and Miccio!) when talking about Chuck Klosterman.

James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 15:40 (twenty years ago) link

jaymc is OTM, that is exactly what Miccio was saying to me that prompted me to dare him to start this thread (I admit it!). It's not a matter of actually using "big words" (OOER clever on everyone to pretend Miccio can't read) or obscurities, it's a matter of just throwing out these things for no good reason and making it to the point that no one can figure out whether or not the bastard likes what he's writing about.

Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 16:03 (twenty years ago) link

I ask again, and then I duck out for my doctor's appointment: What does it mean to like something, and why is it so important have a clear stance on that?

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 16:07 (twenty years ago) link

duh, cuz the ONLY point of criticism is to tell the reader whether to spend money on something or not

James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 16:17 (twenty years ago) link

It's not important to like something, but it is important to have some sort of angle on a record/movie/tv show/book/whatever cultural artifact. In this age of 75-word reviews, those angles have been abbreviated to a shorthand of keywords, references and the like. It's rare that you'll find a writer engage with a record enough to achieve anything close to "overacademic bullshit." Anyway, maybe the hardest thing to do as a writer is to approach a record with an academic/theoretical/high-falutin mindset without sacrificing the energy of the writing. For many scribes, once a name from the Frankfurt School appears all of the piece's momentum gets sucked out. So the key is a balance between playful/energetic writing and a smart angle. It's rare to find.

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 16:18 (twenty years ago) link

What does it mean to like something,

That's a whole new thread I don't even want to touch yet.

and why is it so important have a clear stance on that?

It depends on what your ultimate goal is. If you are an evaluative critic, the kind that gives points and letter grades, then it's important to let the reader know how and why you liked something, to give them some sense of where you're coming from so they can better predict if they'll like it or not.

If you're more of an analytical critic, I don't think it's as important to state your personal likes or dislikes. But I think it's still important to have a well-defined perspective or approach, so the reader knows whether you actually agree with Derrida's point and find it useful, or if you're just being gratuitous.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 16:28 (twenty years ago) link

(x-post) Yanc3y = OTM

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 16:30 (twenty years ago) link

the problem with a word like (let's say) "reification" is two-fold: one (which falls into two bits) it's ugly and not common coin, so lots of people will not understand it, and two, it tends to be used by the people who DO understand it — academics, scholars — as a sneery shortcut dismissal of people other than themselves (eg even though a tremendous wagonload of "reification" goes on *within* the academic world, but the sneering is only directed outwards, ie at all the reifications you dumm non-academics get up to)

the potential helpfulness of such a word — of any jargon word — is that it compacts all into one place a lot of apparently different activities/concepts not otherwise so gathered: and the gathering may be laborious and you don't want to do it all over again, so you use the word as a shortcut for "go see the work [x] did categorising/arguing this, which is very telling, and i wd only spoil it if i tried to summarise"

i am v.naughty when it comes to citing ppl as if it's obvious to all what they think and say: this is (partly) because i am pathologically bad at precis, and get in a terrible panic if i am asked to summarise a paragraph ("unless i read every word ever written in the english language, i do not truly understand this sentence and must let it stand for itself")

i am not in fact quite so naughty when it comes to words like "postmodernism", which i mainly think are failed attempts at genre-marketing and NOT handy codifications of related ideas

i think the shortcut is fair enough (explaining things everyone present already knows can be tedious and offputting — or just look silly cf "the popular beat combo supergrass"), but i think asking for the longer version is completely fair enough also

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 16:32 (twenty years ago) link

it is important to have some sort of angle on a record/movie/tv show/book/whatever cultural artifact

I suppose my only real worry these days is the (self-imposed) idea that everything is up for grabs and has to be listened to and talked about. (In terms of angle? Honestly, after dealing with theory for years, I don't want to think what I'm supposed to be doing on that front.)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 16:33 (twenty years ago) link

I agree with Mark (it's very easy to agree with Mark and bask in the reflected glow of his sensibleness; likewise Nabisco). But one thing that irks about many of Sterling's posts is the vaguely self-congratulatory feeling let off by his repeatedly bringing the most recondite critical theory to bear on the most populist subjects one can imagine. It's as if the resulting alchemy will produce immediate revelation rather than the kind of rote conclusion typically reached via any sort of research project. That said: there's nothing wrong with such a method per se, but it has assumed a place of large importance in contemporary cultural studies to the point where it's not surprising (and indeed welcome) that people would balk at it.

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 16:38 (twenty years ago) link


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