Transport in London is shit

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i don't buy a monthly travel card!

but i only really use buses and not even daily -- i reckon so far i am up on the deal by some way though given the fierceness w.which they are policin the bendies now this will probbly have to change :(

mark s (mark s), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

Is it not, possibly, slightly contradictory to demand more people manning tube/rail stations and to complain about fares being too expensive?

theantmustdance (theantmustdance), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:03 (10 years ago) Permalink

No, I think that's sensible - at least sorting out the ridiculous cost of travelleling by rail across the UK.

I still have trouble understanding why/how Virgin charge £75 return to Manchester (with other return options reaching over £400) when you can fly several times the distance for half the price. And why does it take twice as long coming back? Can trains not tilt southbound?

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:04 (10 years ago) Permalink

i don't buy a monthly travel card!

we all know you arrived here just a few days ago from Kabul. the game's up, sonny chief.

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:04 (10 years ago) Permalink

I've not had any bad experiences travelling through and around London for a while now. I don't use the trains much but when I do they look and feel new, clean and seem to run fine. I am even cool with the Bendies, but only when they're quiet and you can get one of those big comfy seats (must face forward though).

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:07 (10 years ago) Permalink

The trains are really good, the tube is depressing.

Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:12 (10 years ago) Permalink

Is it not, possibly, slightly contradictory to demand more people manning tube/rail stations and to complain about fares being too expensive?

I don't know about the tube, but the rail companies apparently make over £100m profit a year in London, and the cost for providing staff is estimated to be between £2m to £4m a year.

Bob Six (bobbysix), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:14 (10 years ago) Permalink

T/S: Nationalisation vs. Privatisation

tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:15 (10 years ago) Permalink

Actually, we must have done that thread already...

tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:15 (10 years ago) Permalink

those big comfy seats

I don't find them comfortable in the slightest. They seem much harder than the seats on most other buses * and, into the bargain, the poor suspension on those vehicles gives a very bumpy ride in my experience.

* the notable exceptions to this that I've found are a few of the buses used on the 341 route which have purple seats with ridiculously thin upholstery; but these are not to be confused with some others on the same route which also have purple seats but which are wonderfully comfortable.

Oak (small items), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:18 (10 years ago) Permalink

the tube is depressing

Very true. Resolving as I did about 4 years ago not to travel on it any more was one of the best decisions I have ever made, in a number of ways.

Oak (small items), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:22 (10 years ago) Permalink

Flights, to anywhere in europe should never be CHEAPER than a rail ticket, advance or not.

fandango (fandango), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:27 (10 years ago) Permalink

Rotgutt (Rotgutt), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 01:38 (10 years ago) Permalink

No, pet. Transport in Los Angeles is shit. There is none to speak of. Come try it and see if you don't agree. If you don't have a car you're sk-rewed. If you DO have a car you're sk-rewed too since there are too many cars and not enough roads and freeways to move millions of cars holding ONE person per car. London transport rocks, comparitively. Off your thread topic, but lending my own obnoxious perspective - welcome or not.

Wiggy (Wiggy), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 01:53 (10 years ago) Permalink

Transport in London is LOTS better than transport in New York.

Is this actually true? I'd always thought received wisdom said the exact opposite.

Public transport in London is good, but wasn't really designed to serve a city that's growing this fast - seems to be where all the problems stem from.

Oak - are you the person I think you are? Something rings familiar here.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:15 (10 years ago) Permalink

transport in london (on the tube) is expensive.

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:18 (10 years ago) Permalink

My personal experiences weigh towards London being a little better than NYC.. on the other hand, I didn't need to get from one neighborhood to another after midnight in London... The "after midnight" factor makes the difference here, I think.

Dom iNut (donut), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:19 (10 years ago) Permalink

transport in london is great*

*maybe not if you use the northern line

kings cross - south wimbledon, last thursday, circa midnight = 100 minutes

but yeah, mostly its good. 24 hour tubes would be nice.

i am not a nugget (stevie), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:24 (10 years ago) Permalink

anyone who thinks London's transport system is bad has obviously never witnessed the sheer horror of transport outside of the M25.

outside london you can, you know, walk or cycle places.

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:26 (10 years ago) Permalink

how much is a monthly travelcard anyway?

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:44 (10 years ago) Permalink

outside london you can, you know, walk or cycle places.

you can do those things inside london too, you know.

i am not a nugget (stevie), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:48 (10 years ago) Permalink

death wish

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:50 (10 years ago) Permalink

the cost for providing staff is estimated to be between £2m to £4m a year

Eh? How many people do you reckon they employ?

James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:06 (10 years ago) Permalink

trains between countries in europe are always more expensive than flying! eg london > barcelona - train - 180 euros, plane 110 euros.

i cant see train travel getting much cheaper as a result of competition from air travel. maybe we should read my friends dissertation about rail/air competition for business travel between leeds and london. isnt the problem partly that franchising to an extent creates kinda flabby uncompetitive practice, where profits can be made in relative safety from predatory activity, if there isnt strong enough contractual arrnagements or tight enough regulation on the performance of the franchisee?

eg "we award you this contract but will continue to allow you to increase fares/reduce penalties for poor performance, and you can do this for the next 10 years" as opposed to "you have a guaranteed revenue stream for the next 10 years but oyu must ensure to do X Y Z and not do P Q and S"?

i dont really know anything about this anyways.

i guess in a sense i dont really compare london to other cities in europe so that gives me a warped sense of how good transport is in comparison to other UK CITIES (dear sirz, outside of london there are population sizes larger than Basildon, Letchworth, and Chorlton-cum-Hardy). but then again what other european cities are comparable? how does paris do? it might be hyperbole but what euro cities are comparable in terms of geograpohic spread, density of developemnt, population etc etc?

moscow was pretty awesome but they run everything on vodka there, or something. actually it was sort of shit outside the metro, but it depends what your criteria for "good public transport" are

ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:09 (10 years ago) Permalink

paris is a lot smaller than london, it's true. for me it's all about money. £2.50 for a tube journey is fucked.

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:13 (10 years ago) Permalink

The prices are ridiculous, thanks a lot Ken Fucking Livingstone

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:15 (10 years ago) Permalink

I thought the subway in New York was more confusing (all that fast train / slow train business, and the lines don't have nice names like Victoria and Piccadilly) but much, much cheaper - about a third of the cost.

When it comes to the 'after midnight' bit, in London that usually means walking through the rain then freezing at a bus stop for half an hour then sitting on a very slow nightbus full of nutters, or paying twenty-five quid to a random ex-convict with a 'taxi' who'll drive you home (eventually, after getting lost) while spouting reactionary nonsense at you the whole way. In New York there seem to be five yellow taxis waiting for you immediately at any time, they don't cost much, and with the grid system they don't get lost.

Tehrannosaurus HoBB (the pirate king), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:16 (10 years ago) Permalink

The bus service is great, but they're (now) far too expensive too

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:18 (10 years ago) Permalink

It's not perfect, but Wiggy is right, compared to LA it's the best transport system ever. I thought it was about the same as NYC although it is more expensive. The buses have got a lot better in recent years, and I think CCTV has made night buses a bit safer, at least I never see any trouble on them these days.

Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:26 (10 years ago) Permalink

lol lol lol!!!!!

again, its hard not to laugh when you are subject to the whims of a properly deregulated market outside of london. First Groups bus fares went up 4 times in a year in s yorks, now its 1.50 a single on first buses. still 1.20/30 in london?

as for tube fares, what is expensive about a 2.50 tube fare? in comparison to previous prices? or are you assessing the cost of labour, infrastructure, distance travelled etc etc and concluding that it is overpriced?

ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:30 (10 years ago) Permalink

as for tube fares, what is expensive about a 2.50 tube fare? in comparison to previous prices? or are you assessing the cost of labour, infrastructure, distance travelled etc etc and concluding that it is overpriced?

-- ambrose (ambrosewhit...), February 14th, 2006.

what's expensive is, it's expensive! let someone else do the math. but yes 'distance travelled' being about 2-3 miles, it does seem out of proportion.

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:33 (10 years ago) Permalink

I've never seen any trouble on a bus in London ever. If you think night buses in London are dodgy, you should have tried spending most of your adolescent Friday and Saturday nights getting the night bus from Glasgow to Paisley at George Square.

still 1.20/30 in london?

It's now £1.50. Considering that, what 4 years ago(?), local journeys were 70p, I'd say that is somewhat above the rate of inflation.

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:33 (10 years ago) Permalink

are you assessing the cost of labour, infrastructure, distance travelled etc etc and concluding that it is overpriced?

another factor to consider might be the *vast fucking profits* made by the operator too?

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:34 (10 years ago) Permalink

But Londoners moaning about having the best transport system in Britain is a bit boring, I agree

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:35 (10 years ago) Permalink

but maybe justified on a thread of this name?

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:36 (10 years ago) Permalink

It would tend to encourage that response

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:38 (10 years ago) Permalink

How does one get to this 'outside London'? Are you talking about the end of the Central Line or that Zone B nonsense at the end of the Metropolitan Line?

Bendy Bus 38 on diversion Saturday. Confused the hell out of me. KEN OUT! etc.

Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:41 (10 years ago) Permalink

It's now £1.50. Considering that, what 4 years ago(?), local journeys were 70p, I'd say that is somewhat above the rate of inflation.

But 80p on Oyster or Carnet.

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:42 (10 years ago) Permalink

... and what if you don't use public transport every day? If you're unemployed or an OAP (do they get concessions)?

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:42 (10 years ago) Permalink

my oyster seems to subtract £1 on the bus. must ask tfl.

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:43 (10 years ago) Permalink

... or a part time worker?

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:43 (10 years ago) Permalink

I just think it's a fucking crime the amount of money commuters are expected to pay. If I worked in London, it would cost me around about £16-£25 to travel a few miles from Hitchin into the capital every single day. This might just about be justified if the service was fast and efficient. However I abject to the fact that these people are swiping up to a third of commuters' wages for the privilege of standing* with some guy's armpit in their face and being *ahem* "whisked" along at a comparatively laconic rate over a very short distance. And that's if your train actually turns up**, or if the elusively crap ticket machine decides to give you a ticket as opposed to swallowing your cash card.
Why exactly does it cost so much just to traverse a small area of this tiny island? Why is it so unreliable? Why are there so few trains? Why, if I'm out in London, am I stranded if I decide to stay out after midnight? Why are the staff so rude all the time? Why don't they have a ticket barrier that stops people dodging fares? Why don't the ticket machines ever work? Why is there never more than one person selling tickets at a time? Why are the trains so slow?
Tear it down and start again, I reckon. Antiquated bollocks run by a bunch of retarded money-grubbing jerks.

*or sitting down on the floor where they get kicked
** for many people, they won't know their train isn't coming until several minutes after the fact since all the video terminals are fucked

Vintage Latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:44 (10 years ago) Permalink

£1 between 7:30am and 9:30am

OAPs get freedom passes and their are concessionary fares for Jobseekers/New Deal

Not having an oyster of some sort is foolish

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:44 (10 years ago) Permalink

Concessionary fares for Jobseekers/New Deal? Are you sure?

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:46 (10 years ago) Permalink

I rode the new DLR extension to George V t'other day. I love the DLR. I like the look of the new 'Millennium' park by the Thames Barrier.

Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:46 (10 years ago) Permalink

that's fkn typical that the fares are 20p higher *when you're most likely to us it*. it makes the 80p claim a load of old toss.

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:01 (10 years ago) Permalink

>> Concessionary fares for Jobseekers/New Deal? Are you sure?

I never heard of this when I was signing on, but that was a couple of years ago.

Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:01 (10 years ago) Permalink

I think you gradually become immune. It's every bit as shit as before, but I'm just another cockneyfied zombie now.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:01 (10 years ago) Permalink

I don't have a monthly Travelcard - I did for a few years but I figured with the monotony of my public transport usage (and tending towards going out in the car at weekends) I wasn't getting my money's worth, so I switched to Oyster Pre-Pay. Inbetween I had a spell of Bus Pass + Pre-Pay top-up, which worked nicely for the occasional Tube journey.

Now I just get the X68 both ways (long walk at the Zone 1 end, but I probably need it) and tend to spend around £30-35/month. (Z1-3 Travelcard is £100/mo, Z1-2 is £85/mo [would allow me to use buses outside Z2 but not rail], All Zone Bus Pass is £52/mo).

The capping of Oyster Pre-Pay so that you never pay more than an equivalent daily Travelcard or Bus Pass if you find yrself bus- and Tube-hopping is a nice feature. Now, if they'd just install Oystercard readers at SE London surburban rail stations...

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:03 (10 years ago) Permalink

Two things:

Times between ticket gate and platform on LU and DLR. (At stations with multiple lines and/or ticket offices, the highest value or combination is used. Entry point is used for stations without gates.)

Unsurprisingly the highest values are at major terminuses, though lol monument/bank obviously.

A London Reconnections blog on TfL's plans to pitch for devolved overground franchises when they come up for renegotiation.

Basically confirms what anyone who uses the overground london franchises already knows: they're shit. A couple of things from this one struck me. One is the comment on pricing:

That cost features so highly on the list of perceived problems is hardly surprising. One could perhaps argue that the issue of overcrowding was perhaps of greater concern (as frequency and capacity are both often manifestations of that) but even so the fact that over half of one’s customers identified price as a key issue would be damning in any industry, let alone rail.

The other is that commuter-belt councils, traditionally Tory/private enterprise heartlands, have finally given their support to Concessions with SLAs by TFL. It suggests that the cost and poor quality of transport into London from these commuter-belt regions is being considered serious disincentive for people thinking of moving there.

The point is made at the end that subsequent Concessions will be unlikely to have the impact of the ones completed so far (citing the difficulties with the Greater Anglia change). I'm not entirely clear from the article how TfL Concessions work where they need to work with another franchise outside of London. If TfL SLAs only apply to part of the route, how do they prevent them failing where the responsibility for the late-running/cancelled etc service lies with another franchise?

Fizzles, Monday, 26 October 2015 08:43 (6 months ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...

can i just say WOW re: covent garden stairs

alo lin (alomar lines), Saturday, 21 November 2015 20:21 (5 months ago) Permalink

i had no idea about the existence of london reconnections magazine - it is kind of a miracle publication

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Saturday, 21 November 2015 21:03 (5 months ago) Permalink

that's infuriating - i actually noticed it faintly working this morning as i attempted to walk up the stairwell at holborn.

i find this p sad. like cos so many people can't be bothered to walk up a stairwell, everyone must stand. holborn is a huge staircase but the fact there are like 20 people queuing just to stand is enough to mean i just walk up it every day.

japanese mage (LocalGarda), Wednesday, 25 November 2015 14:06 (5 months ago) Permalink

will they cope with the extra weight?

walking up escalators is the only exercise i get.

koogs, Wednesday, 25 November 2015 14:54 (5 months ago) Permalink

this is a bad and terrible idea

I don't have the time or energy to make a counterargument (stevie), Wednesday, 25 November 2015 15:10 (5 months ago) Permalink

also they hardly need three weeks to try it.

japanese mage (LocalGarda), Wednesday, 25 November 2015 15:15 (5 months ago) Permalink

As London is being sold to tourists etc etc.

xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 25 November 2015 15:21 (5 months ago) Permalink

i am my worst, most curmudgeonly self on the underground. do not stand on the left hand side.

I don't have the time or energy to make a counterargument (stevie), Wednesday, 25 November 2015 15:32 (5 months ago) Permalink

everyone is. i often wonder what london would be like if nobody had to use it and there was some easier teleportation system instead.

japanese mage (LocalGarda), Wednesday, 25 November 2015 15:50 (5 months ago) Permalink

Really going to go insane if this is introduced throughout the system.

xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 25 November 2015 15:53 (5 months ago) Permalink

Oh my god there would be mass violence on the tube if these dozy twunts were allowed to stand on the left!

La Düsseldork (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 25 November 2015 15:56 (5 months ago) Permalink

We'll all be driving electric cars soon, says Zac, so no worries.

Caput Johannis in Disco (Tom D.), Wednesday, 25 November 2015 16:03 (5 months ago) Permalink

I hope LU have actually done some modelling of data to test the hypothesis, and it's not just that the new intern in Operations has had a bright idea they've promised to try out.

quixotic yet visceral (Bob Six), Wednesday, 25 November 2015 16:05 (5 months ago) Permalink

Every time I go to another city and find they stand on the left I rend my garments and shout "Why! Why are you all doing this!"

ledge, Wednesday, 25 November 2015 16:20 (5 months ago) Permalink

another city or, say, Selfridges.

ledge, Wednesday, 25 November 2015 16:21 (5 months ago) Permalink

Another thing that happens at Holborn (I was there last night, and rrrrrrage) is the bunching, because the escalators are so long if you do get halfway up often there's a long stretch with no one at all standing on the right so if you get tired on the long walk up you can stop for a little rest. If everyone stands on the left as well you can't even walk past the bunched up but to get to the clear patches.

But christ I'm the person that wants to put pedestrian lanes on Oxford St for "walking in a hurry" and "standing gawking at the shops".

La Düsseldork (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 25 November 2015 16:27 (5 months ago) Permalink

i've walked home 4 times in the last 6/7 days at work - even walking home is difficult due to volume of people.

japanese mage (LocalGarda), Wednesday, 25 November 2015 16:30 (5 months ago) Permalink

Saw the first non-lunatic bridge proposal in ages this week - swinging foot and cyclist bridge between Canada Water and Canary Wharf. That would make walking home - or at least walking the busiest and most unreliable section - an actual possibility.

La Düsseldork (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 25 November 2015 16:43 (5 months ago) Permalink

Yeah that looked good. Don't get me started on the Garden Bridge, unless you have real & effective proposals for stopping it from getting built.

ledge, Wednesday, 25 November 2015 16:50 (5 months ago) Permalink

What was wrong with the Battersea Power Station/Nine Elms idea?

quixotic yet visceral (Bob Six), Wednesday, 25 November 2015 16:53 (5 months ago) Permalink

what do you mean? competition winner was announced today

conrad, Wednesday, 25 November 2015 17:22 (5 months ago) Permalink

though not everyone's keen

conrad, Wednesday, 25 November 2015 17:23 (5 months ago) Permalink

Thanks I'd missed that. A car free pedestrian and cyclists bridge looks good to me, though I'm aware of some active and strong local opposition (it's practically in my neighbourhood ).

quixotic yet visceral (Bob Six), Wednesday, 25 November 2015 17:35 (5 months ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

The end of the terrible, barely-fit-for-purpose South London rail franchises is finally in sight. Truly this is a joyous day.

Matt DC, Thursday, 21 January 2016 09:45 (3 months ago) Permalink

For all his being a Stealth Tory and that, my MP's tweetstream is just a steady stream of invective about Southern Trains, which has been quite amusing.

Liebe ist kälter als der Todmorden (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 21 January 2016 09:50 (3 months ago) Permalink

This could be brilliant. But will the lines get some proper names now? "Overground" is going to be way too broad a term, as is "TFL Rail". It'd be like if they called all the Tube services just "The Tube".

stet, Thursday, 21 January 2016 13:23 (3 months ago) Permalink

tfl rail will become crossrail i thot

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 21 January 2016 13:36 (3 months ago) Permalink

Property prices have just shot up 10% in the last hour.

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 21 January 2016 13:37 (3 months ago) Permalink

Hmm, TFL took over the line I use for work and have been shite, so I wouldn't get your hopes up.

Just noise and screaming and no musical value at all. (Colonel Poo), Thursday, 21 January 2016 13:41 (3 months ago) Permalink

xposts ah i see it is more complex after ahem cursory reading

which one? i have found the service from maryland to liverpool st IMMEASURABLY better since abellio greater anglia handed over to tfl

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 21 January 2016 13:46 (3 months ago) Permalink

Chingford -> Liverpool St line

Just noise and screaming and no musical value at all. (Colonel Poo), Thursday, 21 January 2016 13:46 (3 months ago) Permalink

Wasn't a lot of that underspending and fuck-all maintenance done by the old owners because they knew TFL were coming? Meant TFL arrived to a total shambles

stet, Thursday, 21 January 2016 14:03 (3 months ago) Permalink

yea

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 21 January 2016 14:15 (3 months ago) Permalink


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