Transport in London is shit

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i don't buy a monthly travel card!

but i only really use buses and not even daily -- i reckon so far i am up on the deal by some way though given the fierceness w.which they are policin the bendies now this will probbly have to change :(

mark s (mark s), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

Is it not, possibly, slightly contradictory to demand more people manning tube/rail stations and to complain about fares being too expensive?

theantmustdance (theantmustdance), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:03 (8 years ago) Permalink

No, I think that's sensible - at least sorting out the ridiculous cost of travelleling by rail across the UK.

I still have trouble understanding why/how Virgin charge £75 return to Manchester (with other return options reaching over £400) when you can fly several times the distance for half the price. And why does it take twice as long coming back? Can trains not tilt southbound?

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:04 (8 years ago) Permalink

i don't buy a monthly travel card!

we all know you arrived here just a few days ago from Kabul. the game's up, sonny chief.

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:04 (8 years ago) Permalink

I've not had any bad experiences travelling through and around London for a while now. I don't use the trains much but when I do they look and feel new, clean and seem to run fine. I am even cool with the Bendies, but only when they're quiet and you can get one of those big comfy seats (must face forward though).

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:07 (8 years ago) Permalink

The trains are really good, the tube is depressing.

Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:12 (8 years ago) Permalink

Is it not, possibly, slightly contradictory to demand more people manning tube/rail stations and to complain about fares being too expensive?

I don't know about the tube, but the rail companies apparently make over £100m profit a year in London, and the cost for providing staff is estimated to be between £2m to £4m a year.

Bob Six (bobbysix), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:14 (8 years ago) Permalink

T/S: Nationalisation vs. Privatisation

tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:15 (8 years ago) Permalink

Actually, we must have done that thread already...

tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:15 (8 years ago) Permalink

those big comfy seats

I don't find them comfortable in the slightest. They seem much harder than the seats on most other buses * and, into the bargain, the poor suspension on those vehicles gives a very bumpy ride in my experience.

* the notable exceptions to this that I've found are a few of the buses used on the 341 route which have purple seats with ridiculously thin upholstery; but these are not to be confused with some others on the same route which also have purple seats but which are wonderfully comfortable.

Oak (small items), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:18 (8 years ago) Permalink

the tube is depressing

Very true. Resolving as I did about 4 years ago not to travel on it any more was one of the best decisions I have ever made, in a number of ways.

Oak (small items), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:22 (8 years ago) Permalink

Flights, to anywhere in europe should never be CHEAPER than a rail ticket, advance or not.

fandango (fandango), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:27 (8 years ago) Permalink

Rotgutt (Rotgutt), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 01:38 (8 years ago) Permalink

No, pet. Transport in Los Angeles is shit. There is none to speak of. Come try it and see if you don't agree. If you don't have a car you're sk-rewed. If you DO have a car you're sk-rewed too since there are too many cars and not enough roads and freeways to move millions of cars holding ONE person per car. London transport rocks, comparitively. Off your thread topic, but lending my own obnoxious perspective - welcome or not.

Wiggy (Wiggy), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 01:53 (8 years ago) Permalink

Transport in London is LOTS better than transport in New York.

Is this actually true? I'd always thought received wisdom said the exact opposite.

Public transport in London is good, but wasn't really designed to serve a city that's growing this fast - seems to be where all the problems stem from.

Oak - are you the person I think you are? Something rings familiar here.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:15 (8 years ago) Permalink

transport in london (on the tube) is expensive.

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:18 (8 years ago) Permalink

My personal experiences weigh towards London being a little better than NYC.. on the other hand, I didn't need to get from one neighborhood to another after midnight in London... The "after midnight" factor makes the difference here, I think.

Dom iNut (donut), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:19 (8 years ago) Permalink

transport in london is great*

*maybe not if you use the northern line

kings cross - south wimbledon, last thursday, circa midnight = 100 minutes

but yeah, mostly its good. 24 hour tubes would be nice.

i am not a nugget (stevie), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:24 (8 years ago) Permalink

anyone who thinks London's transport system is bad has obviously never witnessed the sheer horror of transport outside of the M25.

outside london you can, you know, walk or cycle places.

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:26 (8 years ago) Permalink

how much is a monthly travelcard anyway?

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:44 (8 years ago) Permalink

outside london you can, you know, walk or cycle places.

you can do those things inside london too, you know.

i am not a nugget (stevie), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:48 (8 years ago) Permalink

death wish

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:50 (8 years ago) Permalink

the cost for providing staff is estimated to be between £2m to £4m a year

Eh? How many people do you reckon they employ?

James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:06 (8 years ago) Permalink

trains between countries in europe are always more expensive than flying! eg london > barcelona - train - 180 euros, plane 110 euros.

i cant see train travel getting much cheaper as a result of competition from air travel. maybe we should read my friends dissertation about rail/air competition for business travel between leeds and london. isnt the problem partly that franchising to an extent creates kinda flabby uncompetitive practice, where profits can be made in relative safety from predatory activity, if there isnt strong enough contractual arrnagements or tight enough regulation on the performance of the franchisee?

eg "we award you this contract but will continue to allow you to increase fares/reduce penalties for poor performance, and you can do this for the next 10 years" as opposed to "you have a guaranteed revenue stream for the next 10 years but oyu must ensure to do X Y Z and not do P Q and S"?

i dont really know anything about this anyways.

i guess in a sense i dont really compare london to other cities in europe so that gives me a warped sense of how good transport is in comparison to other UK CITIES (dear sirz, outside of london there are population sizes larger than Basildon, Letchworth, and Chorlton-cum-Hardy). but then again what other european cities are comparable? how does paris do? it might be hyperbole but what euro cities are comparable in terms of geograpohic spread, density of developemnt, population etc etc?

moscow was pretty awesome but they run everything on vodka there, or something. actually it was sort of shit outside the metro, but it depends what your criteria for "good public transport" are

ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:09 (8 years ago) Permalink

paris is a lot smaller than london, it's true. for me it's all about money. £2.50 for a tube journey is fucked.

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:13 (8 years ago) Permalink

The prices are ridiculous, thanks a lot Ken Fucking Livingstone

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:15 (8 years ago) Permalink

I thought the subway in New York was more confusing (all that fast train / slow train business, and the lines don't have nice names like Victoria and Piccadilly) but much, much cheaper - about a third of the cost.

When it comes to the 'after midnight' bit, in London that usually means walking through the rain then freezing at a bus stop for half an hour then sitting on a very slow nightbus full of nutters, or paying twenty-five quid to a random ex-convict with a 'taxi' who'll drive you home (eventually, after getting lost) while spouting reactionary nonsense at you the whole way. In New York there seem to be five yellow taxis waiting for you immediately at any time, they don't cost much, and with the grid system they don't get lost.

Tehrannosaurus HoBB (the pirate king), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:16 (8 years ago) Permalink

The bus service is great, but they're (now) far too expensive too

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:18 (8 years ago) Permalink

It's not perfect, but Wiggy is right, compared to LA it's the best transport system ever. I thought it was about the same as NYC although it is more expensive. The buses have got a lot better in recent years, and I think CCTV has made night buses a bit safer, at least I never see any trouble on them these days.

Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:26 (8 years ago) Permalink

lol lol lol!!!!!

again, its hard not to laugh when you are subject to the whims of a properly deregulated market outside of london. First Groups bus fares went up 4 times in a year in s yorks, now its 1.50 a single on first buses. still 1.20/30 in london?

as for tube fares, what is expensive about a 2.50 tube fare? in comparison to previous prices? or are you assessing the cost of labour, infrastructure, distance travelled etc etc and concluding that it is overpriced?

ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:30 (8 years ago) Permalink

as for tube fares, what is expensive about a 2.50 tube fare? in comparison to previous prices? or are you assessing the cost of labour, infrastructure, distance travelled etc etc and concluding that it is overpriced?

-- ambrose (ambrosewhit...), February 14th, 2006.

what's expensive is, it's expensive! let someone else do the math. but yes 'distance travelled' being about 2-3 miles, it does seem out of proportion.

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:33 (8 years ago) Permalink

I've never seen any trouble on a bus in London ever. If you think night buses in London are dodgy, you should have tried spending most of your adolescent Friday and Saturday nights getting the night bus from Glasgow to Paisley at George Square.

still 1.20/30 in london?

It's now £1.50. Considering that, what 4 years ago(?), local journeys were 70p, I'd say that is somewhat above the rate of inflation.

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:33 (8 years ago) Permalink

are you assessing the cost of labour, infrastructure, distance travelled etc etc and concluding that it is overpriced?

another factor to consider might be the *vast fucking profits* made by the operator too?

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:34 (8 years ago) Permalink

But Londoners moaning about having the best transport system in Britain is a bit boring, I agree

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:35 (8 years ago) Permalink

but maybe justified on a thread of this name?

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:36 (8 years ago) Permalink

It would tend to encourage that response

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:38 (8 years ago) Permalink

How does one get to this 'outside London'? Are you talking about the end of the Central Line or that Zone B nonsense at the end of the Metropolitan Line?

Bendy Bus 38 on diversion Saturday. Confused the hell out of me. KEN OUT! etc.

Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:41 (8 years ago) Permalink

It's now £1.50. Considering that, what 4 years ago(?), local journeys were 70p, I'd say that is somewhat above the rate of inflation.

But 80p on Oyster or Carnet.

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:42 (8 years ago) Permalink

... and what if you don't use public transport every day? If you're unemployed or an OAP (do they get concessions)?

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:42 (8 years ago) Permalink

my oyster seems to subtract £1 on the bus. must ask tfl.

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:43 (8 years ago) Permalink

... or a part time worker?

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:43 (8 years ago) Permalink

I just think it's a fucking crime the amount of money commuters are expected to pay. If I worked in London, it would cost me around about £16-£25 to travel a few miles from Hitchin into the capital every single day. This might just about be justified if the service was fast and efficient. However I abject to the fact that these people are swiping up to a third of commuters' wages for the privilege of standing* with some guy's armpit in their face and being *ahem* "whisked" along at a comparatively laconic rate over a very short distance. And that's if your train actually turns up**, or if the elusively crap ticket machine decides to give you a ticket as opposed to swallowing your cash card.
Why exactly does it cost so much just to traverse a small area of this tiny island? Why is it so unreliable? Why are there so few trains? Why, if I'm out in London, am I stranded if I decide to stay out after midnight? Why are the staff so rude all the time? Why don't they have a ticket barrier that stops people dodging fares? Why don't the ticket machines ever work? Why is there never more than one person selling tickets at a time? Why are the trains so slow?
Tear it down and start again, I reckon. Antiquated bollocks run by a bunch of retarded money-grubbing jerks.

*or sitting down on the floor where they get kicked
** for many people, they won't know their train isn't coming until several minutes after the fact since all the video terminals are fucked

Vintage Latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:44 (8 years ago) Permalink

£1 between 7:30am and 9:30am

OAPs get freedom passes and their are concessionary fares for Jobseekers/New Deal

Not having an oyster of some sort is foolish

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:44 (8 years ago) Permalink

Concessionary fares for Jobseekers/New Deal? Are you sure?

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:46 (8 years ago) Permalink

I rode the new DLR extension to George V t'other day. I love the DLR. I like the look of the new 'Millennium' park by the Thames Barrier.

Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:46 (8 years ago) Permalink

that's fkn typical that the fares are 20p higher *when you're most likely to us it*. it makes the 80p claim a load of old toss.

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:01 (8 years ago) Permalink

>> Concessionary fares for Jobseekers/New Deal? Are you sure?

I never heard of this when I was signing on, but that was a couple of years ago.

Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:01 (8 years ago) Permalink

I think you gradually become immune. It's every bit as shit as before, but I'm just another cockneyfied zombie now.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:01 (8 years ago) Permalink

I don't have a monthly Travelcard - I did for a few years but I figured with the monotony of my public transport usage (and tending towards going out in the car at weekends) I wasn't getting my money's worth, so I switched to Oyster Pre-Pay. Inbetween I had a spell of Bus Pass + Pre-Pay top-up, which worked nicely for the occasional Tube journey.

Now I just get the X68 both ways (long walk at the Zone 1 end, but I probably need it) and tend to spend around £30-35/month. (Z1-3 Travelcard is £100/mo, Z1-2 is £85/mo [would allow me to use buses outside Z2 but not rail], All Zone Bus Pass is £52/mo).

The capping of Oyster Pre-Pay so that you never pay more than an equivalent daily Travelcard or Bus Pass if you find yrself bus- and Tube-hopping is a nice feature. Now, if they'd just install Oystercard readers at SE London surburban rail stations...

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:03 (8 years ago) Permalink

iv) this person has personal experience or empathy which means the context of this "hilarious" and "obvious" post might read really rather differently. See Stevie's post, please.

This is toxicity in its purest form: someone asks you about something questionable that you said, and your response is to cast aspersions at THAT person and their motives, and proceed to make the entire thing ALL ABOUT YOU and how wounded you are by these terrible allegations that something you said might have been ableist, rather than just saying "OK, yeah, sorry I could see how that could read badly, I'll try to be more careful."

"righteous indignation shit" (Branwell Bell), Friday, 7 February 2014 09:29 (2 months ago) Permalink

the above could apply both ways to be honest

^ 諷刺 (ken c), Friday, 7 February 2014 09:31 (2 months ago) Permalink

e.g. consider the following passage

poster a: bus drivers are just fucking cunts
poster b: yeah, i fucking hate them
poster c: yeah fucking right, oh my god the black ones are the fucking worst

now, if the above happen anywhere from a BNP/KKK forum, would you seriously think poster c is genuinely making a racist remark?

now re-think if you have known poster c for several years and not a stranger.

The only conditions under which I could ever think that Poster C was not acting in a racist way would be if Poster C was actually black him/herself, (and had a history of using irony in order to make commentary on racism). If it is not your burden to bear, it is not your joke to make.

This kind of humour is incredibly difficult to pull off, even among people who know one another well. The internet is not your living room, and "OMG, my intent is MAGIC you should have just KNOWN that it was ~supposed to be funny~" is not some magic wand you can wave to cover your ass.

And as to context, this is not the first time that LJ has got into hot water over this kind of thing, and not the first time he has freaked out at people who called him on it. Context exists in more ways than just "Oh, x is my buddy, they're not a bigot" when they have form on this kind of thing. If you guys are thinking I'm just doing this because I don't like LJ, you might stop and consider *why* and how someone could have built up a long-term distrust of a person, instead of doing this handwaving "Calm down, dear" bullshit.

"righteous indignation shit" (Branwell Bell), Friday, 7 February 2014 09:37 (2 months ago) Permalink

i) this person thinks so low of me that i'm not given the benefits of 99% doubt (see 1/) that i'm not some ableist bigot?

This. To not get a joke that obvious (and one obviously not at the expense of disabled people) you'd have to have a shockingly low opinion of LJ and a tin ear for sarcasm.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Friday, 7 February 2014 09:41 (2 months ago) Permalink

Wow, OK, the boys are going to pull together yet again and circle their wagons to defend their so right on he can just call people "retards" with a free pass "bantz, lads" buddy. Quelle surprise.

I'm done guys. Enjoy your LOLs.

"righteous indignation shit" (Branwell Bell), Friday, 7 February 2014 09:43 (2 months ago) Permalink

It's pretty obvious here, who the "shockingly low opinion" is of, and it isn't Louis.

"righteous indignation shit" (Branwell Bell), Friday, 7 February 2014 09:44 (2 months ago) Permalink

No, "retards" was unacceptable. You know that's not what I was referring to. Tbh I find LJ maddening more often than not.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Friday, 7 February 2014 09:46 (2 months ago) Permalink

who exactly are "the boys"? why is this now suddenly the boys?

^ 諷刺 (ken c), Friday, 7 February 2014 09:47 (2 months ago) Permalink

anyway i was hoping for some understanding on both sides but clearly this was a futile exercise. i'm going to take my own advice. sorry for any inconvenience caused to all readers of this thread

^ 諷刺 (ken c), Friday, 7 February 2014 09:50 (2 months ago) Permalink

Does anyone else find Branwell's posting style intimidating?

the Shearer of simulated snowsex etc. (Dwight Yorke), Friday, 7 February 2014 09:58 (2 months ago) Permalink

Don't think its nice to comment on someone elses posting style in third person on a thread that they read

^ 諷刺 (ken c), Friday, 7 February 2014 10:03 (2 months ago) Permalink

Ok, I find her posting style intimidating. Branwell, I find you somewhat intimidating.

the Shearer of simulated snowsex etc. (Dwight Yorke), Friday, 7 February 2014 10:10 (2 months ago) Permalink

Ken OTM

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Friday, 7 February 2014 10:18 (2 months ago) Permalink

ridic

conrad, Friday, 7 February 2014 11:27 (2 months ago) Permalink

Yo stevie, ty for gracious semi-climbdown and apologies if I caused you any distress with what I said before you posted (defend my right to call u names in the aftermath tho). I know you're probably not going to agree with this, but I would like to refute an absence of any sense of irony - I introduced, if you'd bear to revisit it, the word 'retard' with the phrase 'how's about this for some ableism' - I know it is a Bad And Ableist Word, and in any other circumstances would not use it (nowadays, at least) - you must trust me on this. However, I was moved to deconstruct the entire premise of BB's accusatory vitriol in that particularly graphic way - I know it was not big or clever of me, but this was not about being big or clever, it was about conveying frustration. Perhaps - indeed, probably - I should have chosen a less problematic method, but in this case I was done with the treading-on-eggshells self-justifying absurdity of the position I'd have been forced into otherwise. Going 'nuclear', they say - you want some ableism, well have some. Frightfully immature I'm sure we can all agree, and apologies again if my use of the word caused genuine offence.

Absolutely nothing to say to BB's latest screeds. You can all read what everyone wrote yourselves.

zinging of a fuckboy (imago), Friday, 7 February 2014 12:06 (2 months ago) Permalink

Stevie, fair play

lj- ^ genuinely, that was all that was called for

cyfytlapdbfr? (darraghmac), Friday, 7 February 2014 12:10 (2 months ago) Permalink

xxp yeah this thread took a funny turn.

Two 56s arrived at the same time this morning, meaning I was able to get a seat all to myself! Living the dream.

Kim Wrong-un (Neil S), Friday, 7 February 2014 12:19 (2 months ago) Permalink

Did free Tube travel happen this morning?

baked beings on toast (suzy), Friday, 7 February 2014 12:25 (2 months ago) Permalink

hang on.. so freetube will only work where the stations are controlled by RMT staff then?

^ 諷刺 (ken c), Friday, 7 February 2014 13:14 (2 months ago) Permalink

wasn't the case at archway or warren street :(

^ 諷刺 (ken c), Friday, 7 February 2014 13:16 (2 months ago) Permalink

BB = not intimidating
LJ = a good lad

Eats like Elvis, shits like De Niro (Tom D.), Friday, 7 February 2014 16:00 (2 months ago) Permalink

Revenue strike would presumably put everyone in breach of contract and therefore much more sackable, right?

Matt DC, Friday, 7 February 2014 16:25 (2 months ago) Permalink

matt i didn't understand how it works either - if you're paid to work that day don't know how it works with not performing certain duties are there union laws that cover it?

^ 諷刺 (ken c), Friday, 7 February 2014 16:46 (2 months ago) Permalink

someone on londonist commented that even striking is a breach of contract and it's the union immunity that covers it, and it presumably also covers this? i know next to nothing about it

^ 諷刺 (ken c), Friday, 7 February 2014 16:52 (2 months ago) Permalink

there's also lol this - don't know how robust is the source
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/06/tube-strike-boris-johnson-union-eu-law

^ 諷刺 (ken c), Friday, 7 February 2014 16:55 (2 months ago) Permalink

I *think* the revenue strike would be official but unprotected action, so the employer either has to sack all or none of the participants. Proper strike is protected action so sacking a striker would be unlawful even tho it is legally a breach of contract.

(this might be bollocks tho so don't go relying on it)

oppet, Friday, 7 February 2014 17:26 (2 months ago) Permalink

is that how TFL are going to manage the change without voluntary redundancy?

^ 諷刺 (ken c), Friday, 7 February 2014 17:42 (2 months ago) Permalink

without involuntary redundancy obvs

^ 諷刺 (ken c), Friday, 7 February 2014 17:43 (2 months ago) Permalink

Every time I've been on strike the union ballot paper makes it clear that going on strike will breach your contract and could lead to dismissal.

If it was up to the unions we still have stream trains (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Friday, 7 February 2014 21:12 (2 months ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

Blimey, Bob Crow has died

stet, Tuesday, 11 March 2014 10:07 (1 month ago) Permalink

blimey indeed

conrad, Tuesday, 11 March 2014 10:15 (1 month ago) Permalink

52, no age

Angkor Waht (Neil S), Tuesday, 11 March 2014 10:31 (1 month ago) Permalink

Ken Livingstone on Bob Crow: "The only working-class people who still have well-paid jobs in London are his members.”

you are clinically deaf and should sell you iPod (stevie), Tuesday, 11 March 2014 11:19 (1 month ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

I stand by my post during the last strike. After spending most of that week having to go back and forth to the hospital and seeing what a strike does to people in a similar situation - fuck 'em
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
In response to plans to modernise and improve your Tube service, and despite us offering significant changes, the RMT union has called a further five days of strike action.

If the strikes go ahead, Tube services will be affected from:
• Around 21:00 on Monday 28 April until the morning of Thursday 1 May
• Around 21:00 on Monday 5 May until the morning of Friday 9 May

We will do everything we can to run as many trains as possible, but there will be significant disruption. Our Travel Ambassadors will be on hand to offer help. The DLR, London Overground, and other rail services will operate normally and we will enhance bus services on key routes. Please also consider cycling or walking if possible.

Walter Galt, Tuesday, 22 April 2014 14:20 (Yesterday) Permalink

u madd?

Prostitute Farm Online (Bananaman Begins), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 14:24 (Yesterday) Permalink


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