Is this anti-semitism?

so i'll be happy to oblige

I'm not a Jew but I certainly take offense at this statement. What do you mean by 'ruining'? Does it ruin the state more than Christianity ruins other states, like Northern Ireland, for instance?

a) Israel is to blame.
b) No wait, the Jews are to blame.
c) Also, I forgot about those Palestinians in the Gaza strip.

Chow985 (5 days ago) Show Hide
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enjoy while you can, the jews of nbc are coming

Swaneaterman (5 days ago) Show Hide
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i hope you meant jaws

SUP3RSOFA (4 days ago) Show Hide
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pretty sure he meant to say jews

http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2009/feb/18/caryl-churchill-gaza-play

w the f is with the tone of this? if the accusation was of straight-up racism... oh you get the idea.

"don't tell them about the dead babies"??

subtle stuff.

w the f is with the tone of this?

Lol Melanie Phillips, I believe.

Tell her, tell her about the army, tell her to be proud of the army. Tell her about the family of dead girls, tell her their names why not, tell her the whole world knows, why shouldn’t she know? tell her there’s dead babies, did she see babies? Tell her she’s got nothing to be ashamed of. Tell her they did it to themselves. Tell her they want their children killed to make people sorry for them, tell her I’m not sorry for them, tell her not to be sorry for them, tell her we’re the ones to be sorry for, tell her they can’t talk suffering to us. Tell her we’re the iron fist now, tell her it’s the fog of war, tell her we won’t stop killing them till we’re safe, tell her I laughed when I saw the dead policeman, tell her I wouldn’t care if we wiped them out, the world would hate us is the only thing, tell her I don’t care if the world hates us, tell her we’re better haters, tell her we’re chosen people, tell her I look at one of their children covered in blood and what do I feel? Tell her all I feel is happy it’s not her.

ay-ay-ay

xpost

would have held water before the guardian started publishing stuff by the likes of neil clark, richard seymour, tony naylor, etc.*

*joke that possibly not even dom will get

I know nothing about the content of the play but perhaps the accusation would be taken more seriously if it weren't coming from someone who talks about the "creeping Islamisation of Britain" on the same Spectator blog.

(xpost yeah okay that's pretty dodgy)

I dunno, I guess that excerpt strikes me as a totally unsurprising level of venom in the the context of suicide bombers, attacks etc, and the everyday vilainization of the other side. Isn't hatred basically universal?

I kind of feel like...I don't think attributing that voice to a Jewish is person is anti-Semitic, I think it would be foolhardy denial to pretend any group of people wouldn't have some notes of that kind of hatred in them under similar circumstances.

This article on it in The Independent is getting a bit of attention today. I've got to say that I'm (genuinely) a bit shocked by the readers' comments section

tl;dr

independent published a cartoon with ariel sharon actually eating babies though so they've kind of set out their stall as the paper for left-wing anti-semites.

not sure why it's thought to be a good idea to stage the caryl churchill with a play about germans refusing to accept responsibility for the holocaust, or why charlotte higgins think this context helps when "jews are the new nazis" is more or less the no. 1 meme among jew-haters.

Surely what Jacobson is saying is flat-out wrong, though. Critics of Israel (anti-Semitic or not) have nothing like the monopoly on political discourse that he claims, and isn't that his central claim? This isn't to deny that some criticism of Israel might be anti-Semitic.

how-j's perspective on the world is pretty much limited to the tonier parts of media london; within that, he's not wrong.

The view from Hampstead, you mean?

comments section on that article is a fucking shocker

I'm genuinely unclear about what's so shocking in that comment section! There's no point of view expressed there that I'm surprised to see.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_A5FW0Zqf2LA/SMm_Ep8GXRI/AAAAAAAAA7g/OfpwL7X55Xk/s320/blahzay_blahzay_blah_blah_blah_1996_retail_cd-front.jpg

?

you're cool with the first comment being: "this guy has a jewish name, don't listen to him"?

Nice job on equating "I'm not shocked" to "I'm cool with", there.

if you don't find it shocking you should probably spend more time among people who aren't complete fucking goons.

"No, A pro Isreali Anti Palestinian Shoddy Second Rate Piece of 6th Grade Reporting is the name of my dog!"

enrique i cant really believe that youre shocked, given how often you talk about the anti-semitism prevalent in the british left

you should probably spend more time among people who aren't complete fucking goons.

What, ILX?

xpost shocking = offensive or distasteful, not neccessarily surprised

dude still insists on reading the guardian too, what can you do

Yes, because "I'm not shocked by opinions expressed in a newspaper comments thread on the fucking Internet, you know the place where we have Youtube comments thread and the like" translates to "I hang out with anti-Semites". Again, well done.

(xposts)

Do I just not really understand the background here? Because I see a lot of comments like this one, which seems extremely reasonable to me:

Are we allowed to criticise Israeli actions at all? I criticised British and American actions during the Iraq war. Am I unpatriotic? If criticism of Israel descends into anti-semitism then it must be checked and noted I agree but those who abhor violence must be allowed a voice.

That seems like kind of an obvious comment that doesn't address the issue.

By the way, I DON'T think it's anti-semitic to have Israeli parents say "Don't tell them about the baby-killing" or whatever. I think it's easy and cheap and not very subtle or interesting, but it's not anti-semitic to bring up the fact that Israeli actions resulted in the deaths of babies just because there happen to have been some blood libels in the middle ages involving jews and babies.

There are certainly people -- I wouldn't say there are many, but they exist, and I've known a few -- who argue that no Western criticism of Israel is legitimate, because (a) whatever Israel's transgressions or mistakes, there are many countries and regimes deserving of opprobrium (and so if you're singling out Israel the only conceivable reason is anti-Semitism), and (b) the Holocaust, or at least the fact that the West permitted the Holocaust to happen.

(xpost)

(That being said, it's a fairly extreme point of view.)

Shimon Peres bottle opener

Caryl Churchill relying on easy and cheap polemics??? Hold the fucking presses this is breaking news

However I do think parallels between Israel and Nazi Germany is ... something. Maybe not anti-semitic, but problematic, because it seems to imply a canceling out of past wrongs.

i think this has 0 to do with anti-semitism and 100% to do with Caryl Churchill's time being over some time about 30 years ago

I mean I don't have as much of a problem with people saying "apartheid" or even "ethnic cleansing" as long as they can back it up/justify it, but using Nazi Germany as the analogy seems to have an especially questionable motive.

There are certainly people -- I wouldn't say there are many, but they exist, and I've known a few -- who argue that no Western criticism of Israel is legitimate, because (a) whatever Israel's transgressions or mistakes, there are many countries and regimes deserving of opprobrium (and so if you're singling out Israel the only conceivable reason is anti-Semitism), and (b) the Holocaust, or at least the fact that the West permitted the Holocaust to happen.

(xpost)

― Charlie Rose Nylund, Wednesday, 18 February 2009 17:45 (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

strawmensch

stating the obv here, but yeah the whole Nazi comparison thing is done to get a rise out of Jewish people rather than to make any real political statement.

strawmensch

Hey, I was answering Laurel's question. I'll look up the people I've known who've expressed the opinion I described, though, and tell them about a great casting opportunity for them in The Wizard Of Oz.

It's ALL kind of obvious, the playwright's point is, as you say, obviously and not very complex or interesting, but in that case...why are people upthread calling the comments shocking and terrible?

well the majority of them are surely terrible, just not shocking as in a surprise

Okay, well, I don't see why they're so terrible either. But I guess that means I don't understand the issues.

xxxposts fine, you've met people who've said this, whatever. but it's a travesty of mainstream arguments about criticism of israel, not the real thing. saying that israel is "singled out" doesn't mean that you can't criticise it - just that it shouldn't be targeted with extraordinary measures not applied to other human rights abusers eg boycott movements.

and it is not often said that complicity in the holocaust means that there should be no western criticism of israel, but that it feeds into israeli fears about neighbours and political organisations in palestine who have the stated aim of the destruction of the jewish state.

Didn't most of ILX pretty much reach this viewpoint after a day or so of argument about the Gaza invasion?

Talking about the crimes of Hamas is a smoke and mirror comment as the Palestinians are an occupied and embattled people. The original sin is being committed against them. We will address their crimes once Israel has cleaned up its act.