That's it! The only ism I want to come out of your mouths is jism. Overacademic Bullshit Must Die.

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Are on the verge of having a well-thought-out, intellectual argument about the value of well-thought-out, intellectual arguments?

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:12 (twenty years ago) link

THE HORROR!

James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:12 (twenty years ago) link

Not if I can do anything about it.

Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:13 (twenty years ago) link

you pieces of shit

jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:13 (twenty years ago) link

There comes a time when you realize that Beavis and Butthead were the most economical and perceptive critics ever.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:14 (twenty years ago) link

Ned is OTM.

Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:15 (twenty years ago) link

hmmm...perhaps I am just Fred Durst ripping apart a cardboard cutout of Janeane Garofalo. But I thought you were allowed to do that on ILM (home of the "damn! I hate that song and its fans!" threads) without the unusual suspects getting so riled. Touchy!

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:15 (twenty years ago) link

*gets out the violin*

Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:16 (twenty years ago) link

it IS horrible. you shouldn't have to justify yr dislike of academia by using its tools.

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:16 (twenty years ago) link

it's tools: language, reason, computers

James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:17 (twenty years ago) link

Maybe, maybe not. But why would a book of his criticisms be located in a grade school library (under the 6th - 8th grade section), in that case? And I know he reviewed quite a few obscure-ish artists, but I wouldn't have read those, obviously, so they were in the popular albums' reviews as well.

Of course, with the invasion of the Internet and the fact that almost anything can be Googled into understanding, this point may be at present moot. There was no such thing as the Internet for the average Jane/Joe back then, however. There weren't even computers at the grade school I went to back then. So it wasn't as if I could look up "Robyn Hitchcock" as easily as I could look up "redoubtable" back then, just to name an example.

I just think that when it comes to criticism that would've been read by a wide audience back in the Dark Ages Before the Internet Was Available in Any Public Library, people should've worked hard to not include elements in the opinion piece that would've been damned impossible to look up. Words are one thing -- I mean, everyone in here has had a dictionary in their possession for all eternity, right? Even slightly obscure historical events could've been found out through a quick interrogation of one's favorite history teacher. But trying to figure out who the hell "G.G. Allin" is/was back then -- I think I would've had much better luck finding out through my teachers what happened during the Second Peloponnesian War.

p.s.: I knew who The Smiths were back when I was 13. I should've -- I was a fan of theirs back then. (Still am, in fact. Ever loyal me.)

Dee the Semi-Lurker (Dee the Lurker), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:18 (twenty years ago) link

you never see people whine 'sports journalists just write for other sports journalists', and the average sports column assumes alot more of its readers intelligence and interest in sports than the average music column does of its readers interest in music

I'm sorry, the "average sports column" is total dreck! What are you thinking of here?

Kris (aqueduct), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:19 (twenty years ago) link

I think I would've had much better luck finding out through my teachers what happened during the Second Peloponnesian War.

These days even the teachers would have to google for that.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:20 (twenty years ago) link

I first heard about G.G. Allin through an article in my local paper about Squirrel Bait.

hstencil, Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:21 (twenty years ago) link

James, why are you so upset about this thread? Good lord. Don't worry, posting stills from the "Heartbreaker" video doesn't count as ludicrious psuedo-intellectualism. The whole thing about the sports column is bizarre, by the way, Kris is OTM.

Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:21 (twenty years ago) link

I think that article ran when I was like 11-12 or something.

hstencil, Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:22 (twenty years ago) link

So it wasn't as if I could look up "Robyn Hitchcock" as easily as I could look up "redoubtable" back then, just to name an example.

Hey, me neither, but that was part of the fun/mystique! You found out stuff however you could, bit by bit, maybe going through the microfiche Rolling Stone collection at the library, or reading a 100-word review in a Trouser Press guide.

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:22 (twenty years ago) link

"The only possible starting point: the strange fact of one's own invincible apathy—that if the proofs were proved and God presented himself, nothing would be changed. Here is the strangest fact of all.

Abraham saw signs of God and believed. Now the only sign is that all the signs in the world make no difference. Is this God's ironic revenge? But I am onto him."

Walker Percy (tracerhand), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:24 (twenty years ago) link

Math is hard!

Miccio Barbie, Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:25 (twenty years ago) link

Kris - I'm thinking of how the average page 2 column is gonna be fairly 'impenetrable' to anyone who doesn't follow sports, but how this doesn't hinder them since they assume that hey, if you're reading a sports column, just maybe you're actually interested in (and know something about) sports. They can take certain things as a given and move on from there. Meanwhile most (95% - Miccio: "not enough!") pop journalism is writing for 13 year olds.

James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:28 (twenty years ago) link

I did that too, Jody (microfiche, trouser press, under 12, all that). And I ended up as a rock crit person. So did you. Again, it has not been proven that non-rockcrits care to dig this deeply. Or should have to.

I want a miccio barbie so bad.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:28 (twenty years ago) link

My mo/ther died/when I/was five
And all/I did/was sit/and cry
I cried/and cried/and cried/all day
Until/the neigh/bors went/away

Madonna (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:28 (twenty years ago) link

dear Miccio,

I am not a rock critic. I post and read ILM. I don't really care if someone uses "overacademic bullshit" language or not. So quit assuming you speak for anybody else.

Thanks,

hstencil

hstencil, Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:31 (twenty years ago) link

Again, it has not been proven that non-rockcrits care to dig this deeply.

Was I a rockcrit when I was 12? No.

Anyway, your argt stinks. "I can't name any --> they don't exist."

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:31 (twenty years ago) link

Miccio, should there be NO music criticism geared toward people who are very interested in music?

James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:33 (twenty years ago) link

He states that the right of nature is a system of every man for himself: in essence, man is a self-serving beast at heart like any other, and he will do what is necessary within his own judgment to preserve his own power and existence , or as Hobbes puts it, without a sovereign power to uphold law, "the notions of right and wrong, justice and injustice have there no place." It is an existence of amorality by the standards of those living in a modern society, because in the natural state, man lives by his passions—appetite, desire, love, aversion, hate, joy, and grief—and these passions result in emotions like confidence, anger, covetousness, ambition, lust, and fear, not the more societal constructs of justice and injustice. In the natural structure, man's passions lead to a constant struggle to gain and retain the status of alpha male: "to have servants, is power; to have friends, is power" . The idea of gaining foothold over another human being is, in Hobbes's view, a deeply defined animalistic instinct held by all men equally.

Overacademic Bullshit (mlescaut), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:35 (twenty years ago) link

it should be written all good and stuff, Blount.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:35 (twenty years ago) link

(look at all the intellectuals squirm!)

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:36 (twenty years ago) link

(yeah you really got us now!)

hstencil, Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:37 (twenty years ago) link

(We look smarter when we write in brackets!)

Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:39 (twenty years ago) link

(they're parantheses)
/overacademic bullshit

(and like i was talking about you, hstencil)
/good-natured ribbing

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:41 (twenty years ago) link

James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:42 (twenty years ago) link

leave my Neuropsych. professor outta this!

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:44 (twenty years ago) link

Your professor is Fred Durst?! Sweet!

Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:47 (twenty years ago) link

Nope. My professor is that wig.

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 23:51 (twenty years ago) link

TS: Anthony DeCurtis vs. Skip Bayless?

A: Even my dad knows Skip Bayless is an idiot.

Kris (aqueduct), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 01:53 (twenty years ago) link

Page 2 is typical sportswriting like Freaky Trigger is typical pop writing.

Kris (aqueduct), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 01:56 (twenty years ago) link

However, I hear Skip Bayless's Mexican restaurants in Chicago are excellent.

oops (Oops), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 02:56 (twenty years ago) link

It's Taco Bell or nothing for me

Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 03:02 (twenty years ago) link

the worst is like, from my current vantage point within academia, the age of theory is over but unfortunately people are sloooow at accepting that b/c if you stake yr career on producing indecipherable postmodern readings that show poof!, the text deconstructs itself (and so what?), you have a pretty strong incentive to keep indecipherable postmodern theory around.
don't get me wrong though, I am all for having a big deleuze rave party inside(and outside) a baroque edifice so we can all revel in the flashing lights and allegories of perception.

daria g, Wednesday, 21 May 2003 04:16 (twenty years ago) link

dem is some big words, dem is

oops (Oops), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 04:19 (twenty years ago) link

The really fucking funny part is that nobody cited on this thread is "postmodern" in any usable sense.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 04:36 (twenty years ago) link

yeah, my sides are splitting

oops (Oops), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 05:02 (twenty years ago) link

What was meant as a firework thrown in the middle of a boring study hall TWO DAYS ago is now being treated like a serious stance that must be dealt with humorlessly.

If academia has proven anything, it's that throwing a firework into a boring study hall always produces more boring study halls than it does fireworks. Did you really expect us all to say 'shit, he's right!', throw the A through K section of our bookshelves out into the street and never come back?

And Daria, isn't theory the development of ideas? How can you get rid of that in an academic environment?

(and someone please answer one more question: what thread sparked this one? i want to read it)

Dave M. (rotten03), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 05:57 (twenty years ago) link

arguing with people who are afraid to say what their point is, classic or dud?

Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 13:21 (twenty years ago) link

Did you really expect us all to say 'shit, he's right!', throw the A through K section of our bookshelves out into the street and never come back?

YES. Do it, now.

Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 13:31 (twenty years ago) link

I LOVE intellectual, analytical writing about music and culture. But I admit I do get frustrated with some strains of that writing.

For instance, relying on jargon or buzzwords or theorists without taking the time to explain them to those who are not intimately acquainted with them. This doesn't mean writing for a 13-year-old: this simply means writing outside yourself. I'm looking forward to seeing Sterling's article on Jay-Z and Bakhtin -- but since I only have a cursory understanding of dialogism, I'm hoping that he'll elucidate Bakhtin's theories somewhat to get me more interested and involved in the piece. (It will also allow him to better support his argument.) There's also just plain bad writing that's dense or labored or whatever, and I think we all agree that Xgau, in his attempts to be pithy and allusive, sometimes fails to communicate his basic message.

Often this all comes across as elitist because readers think I-don't-get-it-I-guess-I'm-dumb, but too often it's just the critic's laziness (or unwillingess) to explicate. And if we are indeed talking primarily about journalism (instead of academic criticism that's explicitly written for an inside crowd), then this seems worthy of critique.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 15:24 (twenty years ago) link

Also: Orwell and Adorno to thread.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 15:28 (twenty years ago) link

(Or was I being too allusive there?)

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 15:30 (twenty years ago) link


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