what are barack obama's flaws?

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probably has a clogged pore or two

dan m, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

In that case, all this 'bipartisanship' talk makes me worry he'll let the plutocrats walk all over him in the name of unity. It's too early to tell, of course. The problem is, I'm guilty of being a little star struck by the dude and his speeches and advisors and stuff, so I'm probably missing important defects. So maybe that's a flaw, too.

Oilyrags, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

too cool

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

yeah, basically

Oilyrags, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

Born in the wrong country at the wrong time.

Both Hillary and McCain would be "good" Presidents, especially in comparison to the current Commander-In-Chief, but neither of them are in the same league as Obama.

Oh yeah, he's also an elitist, as the children of single moms tend to be.

j-rock, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

Wife seems like a dick.

paulhw, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

Better writer than every single last one of his critics and most of his supporters.

Dave Matthews endorsement.

Trick move in pickup b-ball is to fake to the right, plow in hard to the left. No symbolism there at all.

suzy, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

i actually wish people would take this thread seriously; i didnt realize it wasnt about electability & i think the answer is probably the same either way (we dont know yet), but even tho im behind the guy 100% & have been for months my gut says myself & probably a lot of people here are gonna be dissatisfied with him 4-8 years down the road. a discussion of concrete reasons why this might be so seems worthwhile to me

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

foreign policy naivete. biggest thing that worries me about him by far. if he gets elected, pulls us out of iraq, closes gitmo, and restores civil liberties to their pre-9/11 status, and then ta-da something actually blows up, how many times is he going to say "uh um" during the press conference in which he capitulates to the chickenhawks in both parties screaming for his head

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

thank u deeznuts i am serious about like actual clintonesque character defects not more empty lolz how everybody except us is superficial & racist

and what, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

what elmo and tom said, basically--the dude comes across as too trusting in america's ability to be smart about shit

max, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

not good at speaking for 10 second clips on the 6 o clock news

Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

hard to say but i think he believes his own hype at this point

messiah complex (likely to evolve into martyr complex)

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

yeah what max/tombot/elmo said fourthed.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

might not be able to tame congress and end up like Clinton in 1994

Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

Also a bit of what deez said - I'm worried he's setting himself up to disappoint everyone.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

has convinved people like me to be largely uninterested in this question

gabbneb, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

He has a bit of this tendency to come off like "I fully understand this problem because I've read many essays about it." Which makes me like him and wince at the same time.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

if he gets elected, pulls us out of iraq, closes gitmo, and restores civil liberties to their pre-9/11 status, and then ta-da something actually blows up, how many times is he going to say "uh um" during the press conference in which he capitulates to the chickenhawks in both parties screaming for his head

It's hard to see how staying in Iraq is helping to prevent domestic terrorism. Even McCain wants to close Gitmo. I doubt civil liberties will go all the way back to pre-9/11 status, and not sure if Obama is even suggesting that they should

o. nate, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

has convinved people like me to be largely uninterested in this question

-- gabbneb, Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:55 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

shock of shocks

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:04 (6 years ago) Permalink

what elmo and tom said, basically--the dude comes across as too trusting in america's ability to be smart about shit

-- max, Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:48 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

i really want to believe this is true, but it sounds the kind of bs that be lipped by his supporters - his flaw is that he's TOO right about everything? ill take that.

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:07 (6 years ago) Permalink

foreign policy naivete. biggest thing that worries me about him by far. if he gets elected, pulls us out of iraq, closes gitmo, and restores civil liberties to their pre-9/11 status, and then ta-da something actually blows up, how many times is he going to say "uh um" during the press conference in which he capitulates to the chickenhawks in both parties screaming for his head

-- El Tomboto, Wednesday, April 30, 2008 4:45 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

this is more lol gwb put u in a jackpot sry!

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

i am really curious as to what hes gonna do w/the gitmo dudes who we have evidence against thats inadmissible due to torture tho

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:10 (6 years ago) Permalink

i wonder about his ability/willingness to get his hands dirty and wrestle things to the ground. saying you're willing to talk to iran/hamas/whoever is all well and good, but if you go into those situations you have to go in saying, "here's the deal: you can get this and this, you can't get this and this, and we're going to have to fight about this and this -- but if the fight goes on too long, you get nothing." the bushies have been terrible at that stuff, so it's not like the bar is set particularly high, but it would be nice to have someone who can actually get some things done. (wouldn't have to be him personally, but he'd need some hardball players around who knew how to do that.) (same applies in dealing with congress, obviously.)

tipsy mothra, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

deex -- i didn't say he's overly correct, but i think he may be presumptuous that America will be eager or grateful about implementing the changes he wants

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

also I am dead serious that his uh um uh tic that he has when you can tell he's thinking on his feet is really not reassuring at all

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

he actually comes across as a guy who would be an absolute expert at that kind of stuff to me tipsy

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

yah he def should cut that out xp

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

nodding slowly and looking thoughtful is the way to go

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

his uh um uh tic that he has when you can tell he's thinking on his feet

this doesn't bother me so much -- it's campaign season and he has to be excruciatingly calculating about his diction. when he speaks off the cuff he gets in trouble, but really only because he running for office

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

or alternatively quit being so optimistic about your fellow humans that you keep getting surprised by shit, like Wright dropping an atom bomb on you on national television

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

xp Still, I think Hillary is a better extemporaneous speaker.

jaymc, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

his almost musical hand-gesture of 'conducting' a discussion / 'putting a fine point' on an argument

it's like the new bubba remote

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

I don't think Tom's point is that Obama is going to cause terrorism to happen, just that when it does he's going to look bad.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

you guys all seem to think obama waaaaaaaaay less pragmatic than i do, i guess

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

I actually HOPE he's more cynical and pragmatic than I'm giving him credit for.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

eh tom did begin his post w/"foreign policy naivete." soo...

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

I don't think Tom's point is that Obama is going to cause terrorism to happen, just that when it does he's going to look bad.

-- Hurting 2, Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:18 PM (9 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

isnt this precisely cuz its easy to paint him as a pussy/pushover, which you guys all seem to be buying into?? i think hes far from either of those things. and i dont mean to draw this into electability issues, just that im more interested in what might be lurking behind the 'optimist' facade

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

i mean, this guy is naive?? he comes across as a freaking borderline genius to me

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

The Bush adminstration has done so much to restore if not empower the executive branch that I doubt President McCain, Clinton, or Obama would be so eager to rescind those powers -- why would you?

I wish he was an atheist -- with his oratorical skills he could do lots for the millions of us who want to hear a convincing defense of godlessness put to theists. And yet, and yet, I suspect he IS less of a god-fearing man than he pretends. Something about his preternatural coolness bespeaks a kind of deism.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

might not be able to tame congress and end up like Clinton in 1994

Can't see that happening. He's got too many friends there already on both sides. Senators apparently luv the dude.

xp Still, I think Hillary is a better extemporaneous speaker.

unless you ask her about bill's position on nafta and she goes into that uncomfortable cackle that's soooo painful to watch.

kenan, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

just a little armchair psychoanalysis, let's all be cool

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

its funny how everyone buys the optimist/naivety package - its a symptom of dumb cynicism - those two really dont have to come together

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

in fact i bet that obama is closer to the optimist/cynic model

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

its funny how everyone buys the optimist/naivety package

^^^. The right wing has been all "SEE? SEE? AUDACITY OF HOPE MY ASS!" the last couple of weeks; they've accepted the narrative that Obama is a New Kind of Politician. To me he's "new" only in that he understands the importance of words and is uncommonly quick-witted.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

yeah i dunno if thats directed at me or not but i agree -- im not saying i dont believe the guy isnt genuinely optimistic, but i def dont believe he's remotely naive, like not even remotely remotely xps to jhoshea

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:27 (6 years ago) Permalink

not directed at u in the slightest deez

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

paranoid/optimist ^^^ lol

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

More on Obama & civil liberties: he voted to make permanent all but two of the PATRIOT act provisions that had been originally passed with an expiration date - so not exactly a wide-eyed innocent on that front.

o. nate, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:34 (6 years ago) Permalink

i mean, this guy is naive?? he comes across as a freaking borderline genius to me

Early on I thought he came off as naive when he said that having lived abroad was a foreign policy credential. Like not only naive for thinking that (which he might not have, really), but naive for thinking it sounded good.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

i know a lot of enthusiastic pro-hillary dems but they're probably to the right of yr hillary fans

Mordy, Friday, 12 September 2014 22:54 (3 months ago) Permalink

I'm not sure I agree with the estimable Commentary writer about the missile shield/Poland and citing Israel's disappointment re our changing Iran policy.

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 12 September 2014 23:49 (3 months ago) Permalink

Yet, with the qualified exception of the liberal-democratic model, each of these systems wound up collapsing of its own weight—precisely the reason Dean Acheson, Harry Truman, Winston Churchill, and the other postwar statesmen “present at the creation” understood the necessity of the Truman Doctrine, the Atlantic Alliance, containment, the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, and all the rest of the institutional and ideological architecture of America’s post–World War II leadership. These were men who knew that isolationism, global-disarmament pledges, international law, or any other principle based on “common humanity” could provide no lasting security against ambitious dictatorships and conniving upstarts. The only check against disorder and anarchy was order and power. The only hope that order and power would be put to the right use was to make sure that a preponderance of power lay in safe, benign, and confident hands.

ok stop

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 12 September 2014 23:51 (3 months ago) Permalink

obv there's plenty to disagree w/ there - commentary is not exactly ilx-spectrum politics. but i think there's a strong case there too, or at least a fun enough one to read that it deserves inclusion on this illustrious thread.

Mordy, Saturday, 13 September 2014 00:06 (3 months ago) Permalink

hasn't morphed into Dysentery yet?

son of a lewd monk (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 13 September 2014 04:43 (3 months ago) Permalink

Not that Egypt's 2 successors to Mubarak have been anything to write home about, but I don't agree with the Commentary writer that Obama should have tried to have done the below

Was there anything he could realistically have done to prevent Hosni Mubarak’s ouster

curmudgeon, Saturday, 13 September 2014 14:03 (3 months ago) Permalink

i don't really feel qualified to play monday night quarterback with regard to obama's middle east policy. bret stephens believes that bush had the answer, which is that the US must project power abroad to maintain global order. we've only ever done this surreptitiously though; the myth of the sovereignty of our client states was never something we abandoned. reagan wasn't open about his involvement in nicaragua. cold war conflicts were justified in national security terms -- communism was framed as an existential threat. what stephens is calling for seems out of line, not with the practice of foreign policy in past administrations but with the theory. it's disingenuous for him to frame obama's relatively hands off policy -- as he understands it -- as a diversion from the mainstream of what presidents have done. i think the real situation here is that there was no clear series of moves that would have prevented the rise of the islamic state that didn't involve US troops staying in iraq.

Treeship, Monday, 15 September 2014 00:36 (3 months ago) Permalink

would be v. happy to never read anyone praise truman or the odious acheson as 'great statesmen' who saved us all from postwar chaos et al ever again.

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Monday, 15 September 2014 21:42 (3 months ago) Permalink

you might want to avoid the recent 'the unknown known' film about rumsfeld

Karl Malone, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 04:17 (3 months ago) Permalink

ha -- i'm a fan of morris but couldn't bring myself to spend two hours with rumsfeld.

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 04:24 (3 months ago) Permalink

Does stupid stuff.

son of a lewd monk (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 23:22 (3 months ago) Permalink

p. zero bama doesn't think it's important to put advocates of monetary stimulus on the Fed board?

http://www.vox.com/2014/9/18/6392635/obama-monetary-policy

reggie (qualmsley), Friday, 19 September 2014 18:39 (3 months ago) Permalink

richard cohen regurgitating a narrative i've seen in many places

For a while Obama seemed to be sleepwalking through this unraveling, as if resigned to America’s more limited role. “The world has always been messy,” he said in August, sounding almost like a bystander. His attempt to calibrate every action, as if a perfect result were attainable, resulted in inaction. Vladimir Putin saw this. ISIS saw this. Now he has awoken to the need for American leadership and firmness. It is a belated awakening, but important. Syria has demonstrated how inaction can be more dangerous than the focused use of force, and a vacuum the best incubator of terrorism.

questions here. what would cohen have had obama do to provent putin's aggression. invade? start a war with russia? and in iraq, short of keeping ground troops there, what could obama have done to prevent the rise of ISIS. put "more pressure" on maliki to integrate sunnis into his government? but how? give "more support" to the syrian rebels? the support we did give them is the source of ISIS' current arsenal. follow through with his plans to bomb assad last year? that probably would have helped ISIS if anything.

when people say the president is "sleepwalking" or "inactive" or whatever, are they just saying that he has been too slow to go to war even though he has been controversially and illegally bombing several sovereign countries at a time since the day he got into office? and now that he has "woken up" to the importance of american unilateral power, does that mean that we will see more defense spending and more invasions and more violence perpetrated by america from now on? is the obnoxious smugness of cohen et al a winking acknowledgment that obama's original, stated goal as a candidate of focusing on domestic policy has been discredited? they say it in such a coded way.

Treeship, Thursday, 25 September 2014 15:51 (2 months ago) Permalink

that's a masterful recitation of received wisdom, Rich.

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 25 September 2014 15:52 (2 months ago) Permalink

It is a belated awakening, but important. Syria has demonstrated how inaction can be more dangerous than the focused use of force, and a vacuum the best incubator of terrorism.

srsly these sentences are deadwood. This is Heritage Foundation twaddle.

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 25 September 2014 15:52 (2 months ago) Permalink

yeah, it's grotesque. "the king's come home at last." it sounds like every rogue group or leader in the world is just a disobedient child and all obama has to do is come in from the den and yell "enough!" to get them to sort themselves out. completely ignores the fact that literally no one who lives in these countries regards the united states as the legitimate authority there.

Treeship, Thursday, 25 September 2014 15:59 (2 months ago) Permalink

“The world has always been messy,” he said in August, sounding almost like a bystander. His attempt to calibrate every action, as if a perfect result were attainable, resulted in inaction. Vladimir Putin saw this.

this shit is so stupid. does he seriously not remember that russia invaded georgia when bush was president?

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 25 September 2014 19:08 (2 months ago) Permalink

when people say the president is "sleepwalking" or "inactive" or whatever, are they just saying that he has been too slow to go to war even though he has been controversially and illegally bombing several sovereign countries at a time since the day he got into office?

unfortunately, yes that is exactly what they mean. obama's bombed more countries than bush did, and that's still not enough. these guys are out of their minds.

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 25 September 2014 19:10 (2 months ago) Permalink

this shit is so stupid. does he seriously not remember that russia invaded georgia when bush was president?

salient point

Οὖτις, Thursday, 25 September 2014 19:16 (2 months ago) Permalink

it's almost as if various leaders are driven more by internal pressures than they are by empty American sabre-rattling

Οὖτις, Thursday, 25 September 2014 19:18 (2 months ago) Permalink

George W. Bush is the man who saw into Vladimir Putin's soul and liked what he saw.

Aimless, Thursday, 25 September 2014 19:19 (2 months ago) Permalink

aimless, who is the worst american president of your lifetime in foreign policy terms?

nakhchivan, Thursday, 25 September 2014 19:20 (2 months ago) Permalink

stiff competition

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 25 September 2014 19:23 (2 months ago) Permalink

George W. Bush is the man who saw into Vladimir Putin's soul and liked what he saw.

Well, that's what he said... then. You must've missed these misgivings in a Maureen Dowd column.

The Russian leader told him the breakup of the Soviet Union was the worst thing that had ever happened. Tell it to Ukraine, W. dryly noted. He also said of Putin: "You always have to watch out when someone steeples their fingers."

son of a lewd monk (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 25 September 2014 19:38 (2 months ago) Permalink

does dowd just make things up or did bush have a crackling wit he carefully concealed from the american people during his time in office?

Treeship, Thursday, 25 September 2014 20:13 (2 months ago) Permalink

Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Thursday, 25 September 2014 20:18 (2 months ago) Permalink

so he should know!

Dubya is not an idiot. He's a shit, but not an idiot.

son of a lewd monk (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 25 September 2014 20:21 (2 months ago) Permalink

come on he's also kind of an idiot

anonanon, Thursday, 25 September 2014 20:37 (2 months ago) Permalink

who is the worst american president of your lifetime in foreign policy terms?

I started another thread to discuss this.

Aimless, Thursday, 25 September 2014 20:59 (2 months ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

ACLU:

"By my count, the Obama administration has secured 526 months of prison time for national security leakers, versus only 24 months total jail time for everyone else since the American Revolution.... The bulk of that time is the 35 years in Fort Leavenworth handed down to Chelsea Manning."

https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/leak-prosecutions-obama-takes-it-11-or-should-we-say-526

this horrible, rotten slog to rigor mortis (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 15 October 2014 03:46 (2 months ago) Permalink

you think he realises on any level that the cousin pookie thing is condescending and demeaning?

tsrobodo, Monday, 20 October 2014 22:17 (1 month ago) Permalink

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/10/our-passe-president/381664/

not even cool now

j., Tuesday, 21 October 2014 00:40 (1 month ago) Permalink

that's who the Dems are interested in -- Cousin Pookie

this horrible, rotten slog to rigor mortis (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 21 October 2014 00:54 (1 month ago) Permalink

Cousin Pookie is back! And yes, he is still sitting on the couch.
Washington Post‎ - 2 days ago

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Wednesday, 22 October 2014 19:46 (1 month ago) Permalink

I had no idea this was a type was invoked by name through New Jack City's Chris Rock crackhead

this horrible, rotten slog to rigor mortis (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 22 October 2014 19:50 (1 month ago) Permalink


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