what are barack obama's flaws?

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probably has a clogged pore or two

dan m, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:35 (8 years ago) Permalink

In that case, all this 'bipartisanship' talk makes me worry he'll let the plutocrats walk all over him in the name of unity. It's too early to tell, of course. The problem is, I'm guilty of being a little star struck by the dude and his speeches and advisors and stuff, so I'm probably missing important defects. So maybe that's a flaw, too.

Oilyrags, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:37 (8 years ago) Permalink

too cool

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:37 (8 years ago) Permalink

yeah, basically

Oilyrags, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:37 (8 years ago) Permalink

Born in the wrong country at the wrong time.

Both Hillary and McCain would be "good" Presidents, especially in comparison to the current Commander-In-Chief, but neither of them are in the same league as Obama.

Oh yeah, he's also an elitist, as the children of single moms tend to be.

j-rock, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:38 (8 years ago) Permalink

Wife seems like a dick.

paulhw, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:39 (8 years ago) Permalink

Better writer than every single last one of his critics and most of his supporters.

Dave Matthews endorsement.

Trick move in pickup b-ball is to fake to the right, plow in hard to the left. No symbolism there at all.

suzy, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:41 (8 years ago) Permalink

i actually wish people would take this thread seriously; i didnt realize it wasnt about electability & i think the answer is probably the same either way (we dont know yet), but even tho im behind the guy 100% & have been for months my gut says myself & probably a lot of people here are gonna be dissatisfied with him 4-8 years down the road. a discussion of concrete reasons why this might be so seems worthwhile to me

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:42 (8 years ago) Permalink

foreign policy naivete. biggest thing that worries me about him by far. if he gets elected, pulls us out of iraq, closes gitmo, and restores civil liberties to their pre-9/11 status, and then ta-da something actually blows up, how many times is he going to say "uh um" during the press conference in which he capitulates to the chickenhawks in both parties screaming for his head

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:45 (8 years ago) Permalink

thank u deeznuts i am serious about like actual clintonesque character defects not more empty lolz how everybody except us is superficial & racist

and what, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:45 (8 years ago) Permalink

what elmo and tom said, basically--the dude comes across as too trusting in america's ability to be smart about shit

max, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:48 (8 years ago) Permalink

not good at speaking for 10 second clips on the 6 o clock news

Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:48 (8 years ago) Permalink

hard to say but i think he believes his own hype at this point

messiah complex (likely to evolve into martyr complex)

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:50 (8 years ago) Permalink

yeah what max/tombot/elmo said fourthed.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:51 (8 years ago) Permalink

might not be able to tame congress and end up like Clinton in 1994

Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:54 (8 years ago) Permalink

Also a bit of what deez said - I'm worried he's setting himself up to disappoint everyone.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:54 (8 years ago) Permalink

has convinved people like me to be largely uninterested in this question

gabbneb, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:55 (8 years ago) Permalink

He has a bit of this tendency to come off like "I fully understand this problem because I've read many essays about it." Which makes me like him and wince at the same time.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:57 (8 years ago) Permalink

if he gets elected, pulls us out of iraq, closes gitmo, and restores civil liberties to their pre-9/11 status, and then ta-da something actually blows up, how many times is he going to say "uh um" during the press conference in which he capitulates to the chickenhawks in both parties screaming for his head

It's hard to see how staying in Iraq is helping to prevent domestic terrorism. Even McCain wants to close Gitmo. I doubt civil liberties will go all the way back to pre-9/11 status, and not sure if Obama is even suggesting that they should

o. nate, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:58 (8 years ago) Permalink

has convinved people like me to be largely uninterested in this question

-- gabbneb, Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:55 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

shock of shocks

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:04 (8 years ago) Permalink

what elmo and tom said, basically--the dude comes across as too trusting in america's ability to be smart about shit

-- max, Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:48 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

i really want to believe this is true, but it sounds the kind of bs that be lipped by his supporters - his flaw is that he's TOO right about everything? ill take that.

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:07 (8 years ago) Permalink

foreign policy naivete. biggest thing that worries me about him by far. if he gets elected, pulls us out of iraq, closes gitmo, and restores civil liberties to their pre-9/11 status, and then ta-da something actually blows up, how many times is he going to say "uh um" during the press conference in which he capitulates to the chickenhawks in both parties screaming for his head

-- El Tomboto, Wednesday, April 30, 2008 4:45 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

this is more lol gwb put u in a jackpot sry!

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:09 (8 years ago) Permalink

i am really curious as to what hes gonna do w/the gitmo dudes who we have evidence against thats inadmissible due to torture tho

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:10 (8 years ago) Permalink

i wonder about his ability/willingness to get his hands dirty and wrestle things to the ground. saying you're willing to talk to iran/hamas/whoever is all well and good, but if you go into those situations you have to go in saying, "here's the deal: you can get this and this, you can't get this and this, and we're going to have to fight about this and this -- but if the fight goes on too long, you get nothing." the bushies have been terrible at that stuff, so it's not like the bar is set particularly high, but it would be nice to have someone who can actually get some things done. (wouldn't have to be him personally, but he'd need some hardball players around who knew how to do that.) (same applies in dealing with congress, obviously.)

tipsy mothra, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:11 (8 years ago) Permalink

deex -- i didn't say he's overly correct, but i think he may be presumptuous that America will be eager or grateful about implementing the changes he wants

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:12 (8 years ago) Permalink

also I am dead serious that his uh um uh tic that he has when you can tell he's thinking on his feet is really not reassuring at all

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:13 (8 years ago) Permalink

he actually comes across as a guy who would be an absolute expert at that kind of stuff to me tipsy

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:13 (8 years ago) Permalink

yah he def should cut that out xp

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:14 (8 years ago) Permalink

nodding slowly and looking thoughtful is the way to go

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:15 (8 years ago) Permalink

his uh um uh tic that he has when you can tell he's thinking on his feet

this doesn't bother me so much -- it's campaign season and he has to be excruciatingly calculating about his diction. when he speaks off the cuff he gets in trouble, but really only because he running for office

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:15 (8 years ago) Permalink

or alternatively quit being so optimistic about your fellow humans that you keep getting surprised by shit, like Wright dropping an atom bomb on you on national television

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:16 (8 years ago) Permalink

xp Still, I think Hillary is a better extemporaneous speaker.

jaymc, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:17 (8 years ago) Permalink

his almost musical hand-gesture of 'conducting' a discussion / 'putting a fine point' on an argument

it's like the new bubba remote

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:17 (8 years ago) Permalink

I don't think Tom's point is that Obama is going to cause terrorism to happen, just that when it does he's going to look bad.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:18 (8 years ago) Permalink

you guys all seem to think obama waaaaaaaaay less pragmatic than i do, i guess

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:18 (8 years ago) Permalink

I actually HOPE he's more cynical and pragmatic than I'm giving him credit for.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:19 (8 years ago) Permalink

eh tom did begin his post w/"foreign policy naivete." soo...

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:19 (8 years ago) Permalink

I don't think Tom's point is that Obama is going to cause terrorism to happen, just that when it does he's going to look bad.

-- Hurting 2, Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:18 PM (9 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

isnt this precisely cuz its easy to paint him as a pussy/pushover, which you guys all seem to be buying into?? i think hes far from either of those things. and i dont mean to draw this into electability issues, just that im more interested in what might be lurking behind the 'optimist' facade

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:20 (8 years ago) Permalink

i mean, this guy is naive?? he comes across as a freaking borderline genius to me

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:21 (8 years ago) Permalink

The Bush adminstration has done so much to restore if not empower the executive branch that I doubt President McCain, Clinton, or Obama would be so eager to rescind those powers -- why would you?

I wish he was an atheist -- with his oratorical skills he could do lots for the millions of us who want to hear a convincing defense of godlessness put to theists. And yet, and yet, I suspect he IS less of a god-fearing man than he pretends. Something about his preternatural coolness bespeaks a kind of deism.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:23 (8 years ago) Permalink

might not be able to tame congress and end up like Clinton in 1994

Can't see that happening. He's got too many friends there already on both sides. Senators apparently luv the dude.

xp Still, I think Hillary is a better extemporaneous speaker.

unless you ask her about bill's position on nafta and she goes into that uncomfortable cackle that's soooo painful to watch.

kenan, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:23 (8 years ago) Permalink

just a little armchair psychoanalysis, let's all be cool

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:24 (8 years ago) Permalink

its funny how everyone buys the optimist/naivety package - its a symptom of dumb cynicism - those two really dont have to come together

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:25 (8 years ago) Permalink

in fact i bet that obama is closer to the optimist/cynic model

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:25 (8 years ago) Permalink

its funny how everyone buys the optimist/naivety package

^^^. The right wing has been all "SEE? SEE? AUDACITY OF HOPE MY ASS!" the last couple of weeks; they've accepted the narrative that Obama is a New Kind of Politician. To me he's "new" only in that he understands the importance of words and is uncommonly quick-witted.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:26 (8 years ago) Permalink

yeah i dunno if thats directed at me or not but i agree -- im not saying i dont believe the guy isnt genuinely optimistic, but i def dont believe he's remotely naive, like not even remotely remotely xps to jhoshea

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:27 (8 years ago) Permalink

not directed at u in the slightest deez

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:29 (8 years ago) Permalink

paranoid/optimist ^^^ lol

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:29 (8 years ago) Permalink

More on Obama & civil liberties: he voted to make permanent all but two of the PATRIOT act provisions that had been originally passed with an expiration date - so not exactly a wide-eyed innocent on that front.

o. nate, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:34 (8 years ago) Permalink

i mean, this guy is naive?? he comes across as a freaking borderline genius to me

Early on I thought he came off as naive when he said that having lived abroad was a foreign policy credential. Like not only naive for thinking that (which he might not have, really), but naive for thinking it sounded good.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:42 (8 years ago) Permalink

so TRUMP is his fault now too

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/opinion/sunday/from-obama-to-trump.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0

in a way though this idiot is right. if O hadn't burned captain combover so mercilessly at the white house correspondents' dinner all those years ago, maybe captain combover wouldn't have been as motivated to enter the ring?

reggie (qualmsley), Sunday, 28 February 2016 14:29 (4 months ago) Permalink

that's a feature, not a bug

Sith Dog (El Tomboto), Sunday, 28 February 2016 15:02 (4 months ago) Permalink

keep in mind he gets to do exactly the same thing, over and over again, a few months from now, when he endorses his successor and gets into the campaign

Sith Dog (El Tomboto), Sunday, 28 February 2016 15:03 (4 months ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

I agree that the next one will be worse.

http://theweek.com/articles/621947/why-ill-miss-obama

we can be heroes just for about 3.6 seconds (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 4 May 2016 14:42 (1 month ago) Permalink

I would guess they have already been breaking that for a while given the involvement in Yemen.

On a Raqqa tip (ShariVari), Wednesday, 11 May 2016 08:05 (1 month ago) Permalink

really, giving a medal to Kissinger is admirably consistent

we can be heroes just for about 3.6 seconds (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 11 May 2016 11:25 (1 month ago) Permalink

imho restricting the ability of the President to conduct foreign policy by legislating static lists of named countries is a stupid way of doing business and will produce exactly these results every time

bothan zulu (El Tomboto), Wednesday, 11 May 2016 11:36 (1 month ago) Permalink

It's so thoroughly bizarre to denounce Obama for his foreign policy when that's one of the incredible progressive highlights of his time in office. Do people not remember what our global reputation was when he took office?

I think he's been way worse on education policy and cybersecurity but there the bar for modern Presidenting is low to nonexistent

bothan zulu (El Tomboto), Wednesday, 11 May 2016 12:45 (1 month ago) Permalink

Libya and our involvement in the Arab Spring scream "progressive foreign policy" but I couldn't call it a success.

The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 11 May 2016 12:50 (1 month ago) Permalink

Obama has the best foreign policy of any American president in a loooong time, but that is a low bar. Also, he inherited a world in financial breakdown, which has made for a lot of upheaval these 8 years. He hasn't always handled that upheaval very well, and the drone program is a big blemish, but. Could have been a lot worse. Will be a lot worse, with either Clintons hawkishness or Trump/Sanders complete cluelessness at the helm.

Frederik B, Wednesday, 11 May 2016 13:00 (1 month ago) Permalink

unceasing drone war also progressive, tho in a different sense

http://i0.wp.com/www.ghostcultmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/artificialbrain-800x800-400x400.jpg

da vinci beaver testicles (contenderizer), Wednesday, 11 May 2016 13:01 (1 month ago) Permalink

da vinci beaver testicles (contenderizer), Wednesday, 11 May 2016 13:01 (1 month ago) Permalink

I'm not the foaming Iraq-totally-has-WMDs-you-guys tool of the MIC that I was in 2003 but I don't believe the demands of statecraft in the foreseeable future are ever going to allow for a truly "progressive" foreign policy wherein everybody gets along except the bad guys and nobody ever has to be blown up

bothan zulu (El Tomboto), Wednesday, 11 May 2016 13:13 (1 month ago) Permalink

It's also important to recognize that intervention and adventuring are never going to have better than a coin flip chance of being even relatively successful at not making stuff worse; Obama did recognize this and by most accounts has done an excellent job keeping the US out of "stupid shit" where others have all been pressing for boots on the ground etc

bothan zulu (El Tomboto), Wednesday, 11 May 2016 13:18 (1 month ago) Permalink

we flipped the coin in libya, ukraine and syria

goole, Wednesday, 11 May 2016 13:41 (1 month ago) Permalink

'It's also important to recognize that intervention and adventuring are never going to have better than a coin flip chance of being even relatively successful at not making stuff worse;'

This is obviously untrue.

Frederik B, Wednesday, 11 May 2016 13:44 (1 month ago) Permalink

relative to what is probably a question that needs answering there.

Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 11 May 2016 14:01 (1 month ago) Permalink

sub "proceeding idiotically from lies, hubris and bad intelligence" for "intervention and adventuring", and coin-flip odds look good

da vinci beaver testicles (contenderizer), Wednesday, 11 May 2016 14:12 (1 month ago) Permalink

I don't believe the demands of statecraft in the foreseeable future are ever going to allow for a truly "progressive" foreign policy wherein everybody gets along except the bad guys and nobody ever has to be blown up

― bothan zulu (El Tomboto), Wednesday, May 11, 2016 6:13 AM (58 minutes ago)

don't think this is what we typically mean by "progressive foreign policy"

da vinci beaver testicles (contenderizer), Wednesday, 11 May 2016 14:13 (1 month ago) Permalink

think he means "progressively worse"

The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 11 May 2016 14:14 (1 month ago) Permalink

pimps for mega-trade deals in commencement speeches

we can be heroes just for about 3.6 seconds (Dr Morbius), Monday, 16 May 2016 14:16 (1 month ago) Permalink

wtf is going on here

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Monday, 16 May 2016 14:35 (1 month ago) Permalink

4 weeks pass...

I think he's been a good president overall, would take a third term. Still something rubs me the wrong way about his hemmy-hawy answers to questions, like when he's trying to sound folksy and intellectual at the same time and his voice gets all caught up in his nose and jaw. I think he has a touch of the same "insincere" quality that Hillary has worse, and this may contribute to the right's dislike of him, though there are more obvious reasons why the right dislikes him. The only thing GWB was really any good at was seeming like himself.

socka flocka-jones (man alive), Monday, 13 June 2016 15:46 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

late examples may also just be a sign of the fatigue of the presidency, perhaps a touch of mild depression or a feeling of having to go through the motions.

socka flocka-jones (man alive), Monday, 13 June 2016 15:47 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

yes he seems increasingly more weary and beaten down with every shooting. which is kind of what I would want in a President. I do think he's been a great president. I am frustrated by the lack of progress in some respects but I think he's done what he could given how much internal opposition he faces on basically everything he tries to do, I've never seen anything like it.

frogbs, Monday, 13 June 2016 15:56 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

i'm confused and upset by his immigration enforcement actions and the fucking drone strikes, i don't get how it squares with what he says he wants to achieve in the world

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Monday, 13 June 2016 16:08 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I think he sees himself as a logical centrist, and therefore drone strikes to him are a middle ground between sending troops in which could result in more deaths to both civilians and US troops; and doing nothing which, while keeping the US from being involved with directly killing civilians, will allow extremists to terrorize and kill civilians and others around the world

curmudgeon, Monday, 13 June 2016 18:45 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I don't think drone strikes and immigration enforcement are things he has to square!

The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 13 June 2016 18:46 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

But I think he would make an argument for it squaring with what he wants to achieve in the world, if he had too

curmudgeon, Monday, 13 June 2016 18:50 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

yeah, the video that prompted my post was also very much in that "logical, reasonable middle ground" style, where he first bent every which way to assure the audience no one wanted to take their guns, then brought in an appeal to facts and data and science and an analogy about cars and various car-related policies (drivers' licenses, airbags, etc.), and finally expressed that a sensible regime could be created of letting all the hunters and sportsmen and self-defenders keep the guns they like while getting them out of the wrong hands. Hard to argue with, but a little bit lacking in feeling.

socka flocka-jones (man alive), Monday, 13 June 2016 18:51 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

If nothing else Obama is definitely the funniest president we've had in my lifetime

frogbs, Monday, 13 June 2016 21:09 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

that event is the ur-moment of trump's candidacy; you can see him seething with resentment (he even starts rocking back and forth) as obama mocks him

wizzz! (amateurist), Monday, 13 June 2016 21:16 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I'd point it to the moment where Obama says, "all kidding aside, obviously we all know about your credentials and breadth of experience..." and the audience cracks up, clearly he's thinking "I'll show them all"

frogbs, Monday, 13 June 2016 21:20 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

it gives a new literalness to he phrase 'politics of resentment'

wizzz! (amateurist), Monday, 13 June 2016 21:21 (2 weeks ago) Permalink


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