the rolling Final Crisis thread

I've never read an Anthro comic and I didn't who the guy was when I first read FC, but it didn't matter, because his role in the story it's pretty obvious even if you have no knowledge of his history. Metron is another thing, but he's not a minor forgotten character, is he? I'm not that well versed in DC lore, but I had no problems getting what the various characters do in the story. If you have the basic knowledge on the major DC heroes (Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, Flash) and know at least something about Darkseid and the New Gods, that should be enough. Knowing about some of the minor characters might enrich the reading experience, but what they do in FC is not hard to follow even if you don't know who they are. For me, a much bigger problem was that the plot had some holes in it and was sometimes hard to follow because of itself, not because of my lack of PhD in DC mythology.

It's just that it seems like one of those things where you would need to have a PhD in the (rubbish) DC Universe to have the vaguest idea what's going on.

Gah! No! FC proper is totally formulated to be self-contained. Yes, there are lots of obscure references that enhance the text if you understand them, but you aren't left in the dark if you don't. It's one of the few superhero-centric comics I'd feel comfortable recommending to a non-comics person (assuming that person has a generally competent level of reading comprehension, as that seems to be the biggest stumbling block w/r/t reading FC).

You guys I am totally going to do my page-by-page explanatory walkthrough of Final Crisis as a video. No, seriously. In about a month. (I've been called upon to do it at a couple of parties already.)

It's one of the few superhero-centric comics I'd feel comfortable recommending to a non-comics person

Really? Even if I agree that it doesn't an extensive knowledge of DC trivia to read Final Crisis, I can't imagine anyone without a good knowledge of superheroes as a genre appreciating it. So much of it plays with, comments on, takes for granted, and deconstructs superhero comic conventions (and also specific conventions relating to Batman and Superman) that I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone who isn't familiar with those conventions. Take Superman Beyond 3D, for example: the whole thing is pretty much a meta-commentary on superhero stories. I can't imagine the bits about the Limbo of forgotten characters or about the alternate universes would make much sense even to a indie comic reader who's unfamiliar with superheroes, let alone to someone who hasn't read comics at all.

someone get ready to edit in Tuomas every ten seconds going "but what about--?"

x-post Tuomas OTM

I guess the Limbo thing was better explained in Animal Man, where it first appeared, but if you only come across it in Final Crisis, you'll probably have to already know what the term "comic book limbo" means in order to understand that you're seeing a literal interpretation of the metaphor.

As a casual comics Christian, I would definitely not recommend Final Crisis to me, let alone to a comics infidel. Maybe offer the All-Star Superman instead?

I'd definitely watch that walkthrough, Douglas! I still haven't figured out the answers to most of the questions I asked upthread.

what would be in the walk through? is it the kind of footnotes people do to those League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Comics, so people can get all the references to DC nerd stuff Grant Morrison drops?

the rolling Final Crisis thread

I pretty much never agree with Tuomas about anything but he's OTM about FC being near incomprehensible to non-DC comics nerds. It was near incomprehensible TO ME and I have more than a passing familiarity with most of the major characters (never heard of Anthro before tho)

yeah, I pretty much just tried to find a way to enjoy it without having to understand it.

Has there ever been a big superhero crossover event that would be comprehensible to non-superhero readers though? When I first read Crisis on Infinite Earths, it was pretty hard to swallow too, because I didn't know much about pre-Crisis DC characters. These kind of series are essentially meant for the loyal fans, right? The only difference with Final Crisis is that it was written by someone with a large fanbase outside superhero readers, so some non-nerds have tried to grapple with it too.

I think the main story is generally understandable even if you don't know all the references. Even as a fan I still needed a ton of help (like Douglas' notes) to get them, though, and when you don't get those references, you can feel like you're missing a huge chunk of the book, both in plot and greater conception - then it can seem like a really scattered, badly jumbled adventure with too many characters with minor roles jumping in and out that isn't even as enjoyable as say, the original COIE, or various other clusterfuck crossover stories. (Bear in mind I REALLY dug FC!)

I don't honestly think any non-comics fan, or even a casual fan, is really going to get what Superman Beyond was about? Though I guess it's arguable how much it really matters/connects to the central Darkseid story.

COIE was pretty straightforward though, the only weird thing a casual reader would have to understand is the concept of the multiverse, but not necessarily who Huntress was. Other than that, I found it pretty easy to read through a year or so ago (with no memory of what was going on in the DC Universe in '86 or who many of the characters were). It's paced well over the 12 issues, and doesn't feel too overstuffed. FC was gettin' in all this stuff from previous Crises, the aforementioned crazy 60s comics, and the Kirbyverse!

I found COIE literally unreadable. I think it was not so much the DC Universe stuff that melted my brane but the really fussy layouts.

I reckon superhero crossovers could be theoretically understandable by a casual reader, so long as they had heard of at least some of the superheroes involved. I suppose the problems come in if you start bringing in ones that a serious fan would know but a casual reader would not - do you throw in loads of "as you and I know" dialogue for the casuals or just let them sink or swim?

I have to re-read FC now, because I am convinced that you are all RONG. I do think reading some of the Morrisonian set-up books (52, Seven Soldiers, ASS, Animal Man, etc.) is helpful, and I would recommend reading those prior to FC, but I really do remember FC proper being among the most comprehensible of Morrison's works. It involves some close reading, but it does make sense. Douglas's notes were awesome, but I read them after the fact and didn't need them to sort out the what's what.

I dunno. If my girlfriend (who knows maybe slightly less than zero about anything relating to superhero continuity) makes it through Doom Patrol and is interested in reading more Morrison, I might see if she's up for testing my theory.