the rolling Final Crisis thread

Yeah, because Darkseid later resurrected him.

uh but Darkseid couldn't REsurrect someone if he had never existed! make sense, Tuomas.

I can't cite Kirby chapter & verse here, but:
Wiping someone out of existence is something Darkseid seems to do to his own minions (esp. Desaad) when he is annoyed by them. In his mind it's a petty punishment easily undone according to his whim. It reminds them of their insignificance in the stony face of Darkseid. Remember that the Anti-Life Equation, which Darkseid seeks above all else is not so much about destruction as it is about the domination of his will over everyone else.

I still say the coolest way to bring back Batman would have him either just walk into the Batcave or show up at JLA headquarters and with no explanation maybe except needing a shave. Why is he back? Batman doesn't need the JLA or his Corps of Robins to go into time and bail him out, because he is the goddamn Batman, that's why.

Batman=Kenny!

now that I've read #8:

And why did he put the clone in a Batman suit between the time the real Batman escaped and when he shot him?

Presumably he was already in the Batman suit.

Sorry about the spoiler, I thought now that B&R #9 is out too, everyone would've read #8 already.

Didn't they come out like a week apart?

Anyway also now I've read it, GRRR ARGH DC for not putting Final Crisis on the cover of the two issues of Batman that Morrison intended as part of Final Crisis (or collecting them in Final Crisis), and then being two years behind floppies in your TPB program [yeah I know there's a hardcover of RIP, but if you think I'm paying $40-50 for a hundred-some pages of Tony Daniel, you have been CRUSHED by the LIFE TRAP]

Both of them actually have "Final Crisis" on the cover! See http://www.comics.org/issue/536026/cover/4/?style=default and http://www.comics.org/issue/536027/cover/4/?style=default ...

those links don't work but argh! I guess the issues sold out in my shop then. they certainly weren't promoted as being proper parts of FC ahead of time though. or if they were, underline my TPB whinge.

And why did he put the clone in a Batman suit between the time the real Batman escaped and when he shot him?

Presumably he was already in the Batman suit.

But he wasnt! In both Last Rites and Batman & Robin #8 we clearly see that the clones were (as you'd assume) naked in their growing tubes. So somehow Darkseid must've predicted what would happen and put one of the clones in a Batman suit for Supes to find.

Also, I don't really buy the "Omega Sanction is a worse punishment than destroying Batman" explanation. Not long ago, in Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle, Darkseid had already witnessed that a strong-willed individual can escape the Omega Sanction. And he must know Batman is strong-willed enough, since he'd just escaped from an almost similar trap in Last Rites. So why, instead of completely destroying Batman, would he risk Batman escaping again, especially considering Batman had proven resourceful enough to almost kill him?

Ego. Anyone can kill Batman, but Darkseid would be the first to break him. Darkseid wasn't ever interested in killing everything; he was always about domination. He needs his enemies to know he defeated them. When Darkseid kills an enemy it is to cause greater despair in that being's allies. Using the Omega Sanction on Batman and than dressing a clone in his garb achieves both - Batman will know the despair of being unable to help his friends and all he's fought for and the other heroes think him dead. Win-win.

Darkseid had no problem killing Mister Miracle in Seven Soldiers, though, after he'd escaped the Life Trap. And unlike with Batman in FC, in SS Darkseid totally had the upper hand, he could've done anything to Mr. Miracle, but chose to just shoot him.

key - after he'd escaped the Life Trap.

If Batman comes back and challenges Darkseid we'll see what happens. The Darkseid of Seven Soldiers is chronologically after the Final Crisis Darkseid - he's still falling backwards through time. Mister Miracle's escape is in Darkseid's future, so he doesn't know the Onega Sanction is possible to defeat.

I don't think you're ever going to believe this version of Darkseid is consistent with other DC lore, despite lots and lots of explanations and proofs from other people. You don't like what Grant wrote. We get it.

The Darkseid of Seven Soldiers is chronologically after the Final Crisis Darkseid - he's still falling backwards through time. Mister Miracle's escape is in Darkseid's future, so he doesn't know the Onega Sanction is possible to defeat.

I don't think this is true. Unless I'm completely wrong, Darkseid's fall back in time is because of his "death" in Countdown to Final Crisis, not because of his actual death in FC. After Countdown he falls back in time into the "Dark Side" body he has in Seven Soldiers. In Seven Soldiers that body is still healthy, but in FC we learn that he has worn it out, which is why he needs to move into Dan Turpin's body. So the FC Darkseid is chronologically after Seven Soldiers.

I don't think you're ever going to believe this version of Darkseid is consistent with other DC lore, despite lots and lots of explanations and proofs from other people.

It's not even consistent with Morrison's previous usage of Darkseid... Anuway, my point was not so much to argue about DC lore rather than to say that the way FC dealt with Batman's much-advertised "death" felt like a cop-out. The Omega Sanction solution both undermined the dramatic effect of Batman's heroic sacrifice, and was kinda dubious from a character point of view.

But he wasnt!

idk what Last Rites is but IIRC from one read of B&R #8 Darkseid says "okeydokey, flush all those dodgy tube-Batmen down the drain except one which we'll keep around in case"

so they flush the rest and then dress up the one they decided to keep as a cunning decoy

right?

also re 'much-advertised "death"' - Morrison repeatedly said over and over in RIP publicity that he wasn't going to die

Okay, with the issue in front of me:

But he wasnt! In both Last Rites and Batman & Robin #8 we clearly see that the clones were (as you'd assume) naked in their growing tubes.

"DISPOSE OF THEM. ALL BUT ONE."

As I said.

So somehow Darkseid must've predicted what would happen and put one of the clones in a Batman suit for Supes to find.

"A PERFECT COPY OF BATMAN, DEAD?

I CAN USE THAT."

Gosh you're right T-dogg, no reason at all to infer that Darkseid would have stashed his dead Batman clone in a Batman costume to make people assume it was Batman! What WAS I thinking?

Er, my point was that the cunning decoy Batman corpse would've been kinda useless if the real Batman was alive and kicking, or if anyone saw what happened to the real Batman, so Darkseid must've somehow predicted that after Batman escaped he wouldn't join the other heroes, rather than come after him alone, which would give him the chance to send Batman into the past and replace him with the clone corpse without anyone else noticing. I guess it's possible Darkseid planned the whole thing like this, but it still seems a bit far-fetched to me.

Anyway, I just realized that Final Crisis might've provided an answer to a question that always bugged me about the Rock of Ages arc in JLA. In that story, the time-travelling heroes must stop Superman from destroying the Philosopher's Stone/Worlogog, because its destruction will lead to the dark future where Darkseid has conquered Earth. What bugs me is that the story never explains why destroying the Worlogog would lead to this future, especially since there's no obvious connection between the Worlogog and Darkseid. However, in the end of Rock of Ages, the heroes give the Worlogog to Metron, and in Final Crisis #7, Superman discovers "Element X" in Metron's chair. Element X looks similar to the Worlogog, and Superman uses it to power the Miracle Machine, so I guess it's possible the dark future in Rock of Ages would've resulted from Superman not being able to use Element X in FC. However, there's a couple of problems with this theory... First of all, since Superman has seen the Worlogog before, wouldn't he have called it that in FC #7, and not "Element X"? Secondly, Supes discovers Element X only after he has (supposedly) sang Darkseid to death, so I'm still not sure exactly how the future of Rock of Ages would've happened, since Element X isn't used to kill Darkseid.

And speaking of unexplained things in Rock of Ages, can someone explain to me why, in the future Earth of that story, Orion destroys the universe after Darkseid had been defeated? That one bugs me even more than the Worlogog thing. Orion says he does it so that the universe will be free of "Darkseid's taint", but by that point the heroes had already defeated Darkseid and he was dying. So what was the point of destroying the universe?

Darkseid didn't have to predict exactly that Batman would come after him alone after escaping from something not shown in the comic, he could keep his Batman clonepse around IN CASE an opportunity presented itself!

I remain glad that I did not read anything Final Crisis related.

You shouldn't be! It's not a bad series or anything, just a bit of a mess, even by Morisson's standards. But there are enough of cool and awesome moments to make up for the plot incoherence. And the Superman Beyond 3-D mini is simply one of the best things Morrison has ever written. IMO it's even better (and more fun) encapsulation of the major themes in his work than Flex Mentallo, and in half the space.

It's just that it seems like one of those things where you would need to have a PhD in the (rubbish) DC Universe to have the vaguest idea what's going on.

Pretty much. The whole thing is framed on characters like Anthro & Metron, who only show up to signify the gravity of the crossover. Show me one DC stan who has ever read an Anthro comic.

ANTHRO is one of those great oddball late 60s titles that temporarily made dc a semi-interesting comics company, eg CAPTAIN ACTION, HAWK AND DOVE, ANGEL AND THE APE, THE CREEPER, BROTHER POWER THE GEEK etc etc. ANTRHO was written and drawn by a guy called howie post, who had a really interesting career in and out of comics and animation, and some issues were inked by wally wood! Far more interesting and entertaining than 90% of DC's usual superhero balls

I've never read an Anthro comic and I didn't who the guy was when I first read FC, but it didn't matter, because his role in the story it's pretty obvious even if you have no knowledge of his history. Metron is another thing, but he's not a minor forgotten character, is he? I'm not that well versed in DC lore, but I had no problems getting what the various characters do in the story. If you have the basic knowledge on the major DC heroes (Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, Flash) and know at least something about Darkseid and the New Gods, that should be enough. Knowing about some of the minor characters might enrich the reading experience, but what they do in FC is not hard to follow even if you don't know who they are. For me, a much bigger problem was that the plot had some holes in it and was sometimes hard to follow because of itself, not because of my lack of PhD in DC mythology.

It's just that it seems like one of those things where you would need to have a PhD in the (rubbish) DC Universe to have the vaguest idea what's going on.

Gah! No! FC proper is totally formulated to be self-contained. Yes, there are lots of obscure references that enhance the text if you understand them, but you aren't left in the dark if you don't. It's one of the few superhero-centric comics I'd feel comfortable recommending to a non-comics person (assuming that person has a generally competent level of reading comprehension, as that seems to be the biggest stumbling block w/r/t reading FC).

You guys I am totally going to do my page-by-page explanatory walkthrough of Final Crisis as a video. No, seriously. In about a month. (I've been called upon to do it at a couple of parties already.)

It's one of the few superhero-centric comics I'd feel comfortable recommending to a non-comics person

Really? Even if I agree that it doesn't an extensive knowledge of DC trivia to read Final Crisis, I can't imagine anyone without a good knowledge of superheroes as a genre appreciating it. So much of it plays with, comments on, takes for granted, and deconstructs superhero comic conventions (and also specific conventions relating to Batman and Superman) that I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone who isn't familiar with those conventions. Take Superman Beyond 3D, for example: the whole thing is pretty much a meta-commentary on superhero stories. I can't imagine the bits about the Limbo of forgotten characters or about the alternate universes would make much sense even to a indie comic reader who's unfamiliar with superheroes, let alone to someone who hasn't read comics at all.

someone get ready to edit in Tuomas every ten seconds going "but what about--?"

x-post Tuomas OTM

I guess the Limbo thing was better explained in Animal Man, where it first appeared, but if you only come across it in Final Crisis, you'll probably have to already know what the term "comic book limbo" means in order to understand that you're seeing a literal interpretation of the metaphor.

As a casual comics Christian, I would definitely not recommend Final Crisis to me, let alone to a comics infidel. Maybe offer the All-Star Superman instead?

I'd definitely watch that walkthrough, Douglas! I still haven't figured out the answers to most of the questions I asked upthread.

what would be in the walk through? is it the kind of footnotes people do to those League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Comics, so people can get all the references to DC nerd stuff Grant Morrison drops?

the rolling Final Crisis thread

I pretty much never agree with Tuomas about anything but he's OTM about FC being near incomprehensible to non-DC comics nerds. It was near incomprehensible TO ME and I have more than a passing familiarity with most of the major characters (never heard of Anthro before tho)

yeah, I pretty much just tried to find a way to enjoy it without having to understand it.

Has there ever been a big superhero crossover event that would be comprehensible to non-superhero readers though? When I first read Crisis on Infinite Earths, it was pretty hard to swallow too, because I didn't know much about pre-Crisis DC characters. These kind of series are essentially meant for the loyal fans, right? The only difference with Final Crisis is that it was written by someone with a large fanbase outside superhero readers, so some non-nerds have tried to grapple with it too.

I think the main story is generally understandable even if you don't know all the references. Even as a fan I still needed a ton of help (like Douglas' notes) to get them, though, and when you don't get those references, you can feel like you're missing a huge chunk of the book, both in plot and greater conception - then it can seem like a really scattered, badly jumbled adventure with too many characters with minor roles jumping in and out that isn't even as enjoyable as say, the original COIE, or various other clusterfuck crossover stories. (Bear in mind I REALLY dug FC!)

I don't honestly think any non-comics fan, or even a casual fan, is really going to get what Superman Beyond was about? Though I guess it's arguable how much it really matters/connects to the central Darkseid story.

COIE was pretty straightforward though, the only weird thing a casual reader would have to understand is the concept of the multiverse, but not necessarily who Huntress was. Other than that, I found it pretty easy to read through a year or so ago (with no memory of what was going on in the DC Universe in '86 or who many of the characters were). It's paced well over the 12 issues, and doesn't feel too overstuffed. FC was gettin' in all this stuff from previous Crises, the aforementioned crazy 60s comics, and the Kirbyverse!

I found COIE literally unreadable. I think it was not so much the DC Universe stuff that melted my brane but the really fussy layouts.

I reckon superhero crossovers could be theoretically understandable by a casual reader, so long as they had heard of at least some of the superheroes involved. I suppose the problems come in if you start bringing in ones that a serious fan would know but a casual reader would not - do you throw in loads of "as you and I know" dialogue for the casuals or just let them sink or swim?

I have to re-read FC now, because I am convinced that you are all RONG. I do think reading some of the Morrisonian set-up books (52, Seven Soldiers, ASS, Animal Man, etc.) is helpful, and I would recommend reading those prior to FC, but I really do remember FC proper being among the most comprehensible of Morrison's works. It involves some close reading, but it does make sense. Douglas's notes were awesome, but I read them after the fact and didn't need them to sort out the what's what.

I dunno. If my girlfriend (who knows maybe slightly less than zero about anything relating to superhero continuity) makes it through Doom Patrol and is interested in reading more Morrison, I might see if she's up for testing my theory.