the rolling Final Crisis thread

If you had not noticed, Vertigo hasn't done a "mature" version of a DC property in many, many, many moons. It's simply not what Vertigo does anymore.

Then do it else<s>worlds</s>where, all I'm saying is that it's a turd in the swimming pool of mainstream "this actually happened to Superman" continuity.

Well, I don't think the thing both Marvel and DC have been doing in recent years is trying to keep up with an aging audience that wants to see the stakes raised all the time, and so that means the villains must become increasingly disturbed, which includes the notion that they might be fucked up in ways that don't include putting on tights and trying to Take Over The World or Rob A Bank, or what have you. It's not going to be a "proper psychological study" because that is not what the audience wants. The audience wants "oh man, that guy is FUCKED UP."

yes, but pandering to an unhealthy clientele is how the comics industry dived into the shitter in the first place

I'm pretty sure that Mr. Perpetua doesn't agree with said behavior/aims on the part of the Big Two Superhero publishers; just pointing out the obvious in that's what they're by and large doing.

Though I'd also counter argue that ALL-STAR SUPERMAN is every bit a mature book and psychological study that isn't fucking things up just to show how fucked-up they are, if you catch my drift. But it's also the exception that points out the rule.

Haven't read FINAL CRISIS yet. My interest wanes, but I'll probably succumb.

i have a feeling that reading this thread >>> reading final crisis

I'm ambivalent about it! I feel like the writers should have the freedom to make the villains as evil as they want to make them, because I think the stories are better when the villains are more contemptible. It depends on the writer you know? Some of them suck, some of them are terrific.

I think I used to be more like "these are essentially characters for children," but I don't really believe that anymore. Kids don't really care about them unless they're on the screen, and if they do read the comics, they like the darker stuff. When I was 6 years old, I got hooked on X-Men with the Mutant Massacre, you know?

X-POST, I GUESS:

When I was 6 years old, I got hooked on X-Men with the Mutant Massacre, you know?

Oy - KRAVEN'S LAST HUNT (what with its cannibalism, suicide, and intense claustrophobia on virtually every panel, from what I can recall) pretty much made me when I was...eleven (?). Ah, how I miss the the floor at Waldenbooks...

When I was 6 years old, I got hooked on X-Men with the Mutant Massacre, you know?

-- Mr. Perpetua, Monday, 9 June 2008 20:05 (Monday, 9 June 2008 20:05) Bookmark Link

You do realise that you've just succeeded in making me feel very old.

Oy - KRAVEN'S LAST HUNT (what with its cannibalism, suicide, and intense claustrophobia on virtually every panel, from what I can recall) pretty much made me when I was...eleven (?). -- R Baez, Monday, 9 June 2008 20:13 (Monday, 9 June 2008 20:13) Bookmark Link

And you too? Stop it.

I was 46 when "The Yellow Kid" hit newspapers.

I'm the one who took Jack Kirby's lunch money.

I knew Bendis before he was bald.

I was there when Rodolphe Töpffer sketched out "M. Vieux Bois."
I told him, "Don't do it that way. You'll never make a sou."
I was there.

I told Joe Schuster his BO was more powerful than a locomotive.

I gave Mark of Zorro 3 out of 4 stars in the Gotham Gazette and concluded, "Bring the kids! Or just the one."

I got into X-Men when they were just launching X-Men 1 with Jim Lee. Great fucking timing.

Ha, I'm pretty sure those Kraven's Last Hunt issues were my first Spider-Man comics. They came bundled in these three-or-four packs that you could buy for cheap at toy stores. I was what, seven?

I remember those! For some reason all those packets seemed to contain Sal Buscema issues of SPECTACULAR SPIDER MAN - KBToys, if I'm correct, seemed the prime purveyor. Excepting the Man-Wolf story I got in "read along with Stan" form and a few other bits, I suspect KRAVEN'S LAST HUNT was my first full blast comics experience - god, those issues fucked me up. For years afterwards, I'd pose as Kraven on the trade cover whenever I wanted to seem creepy/menacing.

I'm guessing that you fulfilled your goal quite admirably, if not quite in the way you intended...

(P.S. I totally remember those packs! And the Sal Buscema Spidey action! I got started on the Vermin storyline, which was sort of the sequel to Kraven's Last Hunt, and which added incest into the Spidey Stew O' Fun.)

I'm guessing that you fulfilled your goal quite admirably, if not quite in the way you intended...

heh

(P.S. I totally remember those packs! And the Sal Buscema Spidey action! I got started on the Vermin storyline, which was sort of the sequel to Kraven's Last Hunt, and which added incest into the Spidey Stew O' Fun.)

It's highly tempting to start a BEST OF DEMATTEIS thread, just because he seems to have doomed a great many of us to our sad exile at the ILC.

Oh, wait.

preview at N'rambla looks AWESOME, but also slow building

I've been on a big Morrison kick with Final Crisis and am really looking forward to #2 tomorrow. I'm almost through with Book 3 of the Seven Soldiers of Victory and I read the three part JLA Classified story that is kind of a lead in. 7 Soldiers is really killer read so far.

DC has really screwed it though, as they did not make anything good off 52 or that 7 Soldiers series and to me, there is ALL SORTS of stuff that could have been done. The only thing that seemed to spin out of that that I ended up reading and it was pretty good was the Crime Bible Question series that Greg Rucka did and sadly it seems to have sold about twelve copies.

they did not make anything good off 52

METAL MEN is Morrisonian Madness! It's probably as dense as any mainstream comic has been in YEARS and it's nearly impossible to follow, but who cares??? It's killer fun and mega-thrill-powered!

wake me up when they un-cancel the Dorkin/Allred version

Okay, fine, hold a grudge. But hold it against Didio and whoever else. Duncan Rouleau did an awesome comic.

ComicMix provides dorks (like us!) with a quick & dirty Countdown rundown, complete with illustrations! Here's Part 1 -- behold!

ME: So here's the scoop, Jimmy. Darkseid had secretly been collecting the celestial energies released by the death of each New God and had stored them all in a "soul-catcher" he'd hidden in your body. The idea was that he would wait until it was full, take it from your body and then use it to become near-omnipotent.

JIMMY: But that doesn't make sense. Why not just put the soul-catcher directly into his own body to begin with?

ME: Hey, Jimmy, it's science. Don't question science.

I don't know how anyone in their right mind could call Final Crisis #2 slow-building when so much crazy stuff happens in the last 15 pages or so. More things happened in the first two issues of Final Crisis than in the past three years of Bendis Avengers comics.

Extratextual annotations up here now: http://finalcrisisannotations.blogspot.com/2008/06/final-crisis-2.html

As before, I'm happy to try to answer questions here using only stuff that's actually in the issue, though...!

Oh, and check it out: Jones initially drew the Question in the first issue with her mask! http://www.fanfare-se.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=13534&ArtistId=132&Details=0&From=TDetail&Mag=Final+Crisis

omg loved #2.

I don't know how anyone in their right mind could call Final Crisis #2 slow-building

was going merely on the five pages in the N'Ambla preview. Mindblowing. Cataclysmic! APOKOLIPTIC!

North American Man-Boy Love Association preview?

I have to say: if the pace and quality continue, this may ultimately rate very highly in the "Best Morrison Evah!" pantheon. It's like everything I love about him with none of the filler.

Loved the second issue, glad that it seems to be better received out in the less Morrisonoid regions of the comicosphere too. Now I'm used to the storytelling style he's using I had zero problems with flow.

I don't believe I have pimped my last Pitchfork column, which talked about Final Crisis, Secret Invasion, Marvel, DC, "what's going on" vs "what happens next", the interweb as fourth-wall breaking, etc etc. (with a tiny smidgen of music related context to assuage my guilt at soapboxing about comics on a nindie site). So here it is:

http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/article/feature/51361-column-poptimist-16

Great article!

Fans of "Final Crisis" have been quick to claim that its detractors are too stupid to "get it," but there's a cost-benefit analysis in play: how much time should you expect to give to a comic about superheroes fighting gods?

So, it's kind of pop vs. prog thing, isn't it?

Yeah I guess so! I am a lot more prog-friendly than once I was. Anyway obviously for me the answer is "I WILL GIVE IT ALL THE TIME I HAVE" judging by how much of yesterday evening I spent scouring for a. a p1r4t3d issue and b. discussion threads. But I don't think "this is too dense for my taste" is a de facto dumb response to FC.

Bizarrely, I wasn't feeling issue 2 quite so much - I think it's possibly the sight of Turpin having an extended Greg Feely-like breakdown in Bludhaven that didn't sit well with me, from the point of view of "what is Joe Four-Colors going to make of this?". Also the first panel of that sequence included the Atomic Knights, and made me remember the Gray/Palmiotti serieses :(

here is a review that amused me…

http://www.comicon.com/panels/

I reckon that I'm in the minority on ILC that I don't much care for FC. But I'm surprised that there has been no discussion (that I have seen here) re: the massive contradictions between Countdown/Death of New Gods and FC and how Morrison shrugged his shoulders and suggested it was DC editorial's fuckup (newsarama interview, I think). This all contributed to the io9 report that beat the drum for a Didio exit…

Oops… that didn't work… go to "comic books" and then "lawson reviews reviews FC 2 etc etc"

I haven't read this yet (I'm still in Rome) but I predict numerous questions for Douglas come Monday.

But I'm surprised that there has been no discussion (that I have seen here) re: the massive contradictions between Countdown/Death of New Gods and FC and how Morrison shrugged his shoulders and suggested it was DC editorial's fuckup (newsarama interview, I think).

That's possibly because:

1) not many folks here (if any) have read Countdown or Death of the New Gods
2) complaining about DC editorial during Didio's reign is old hat (folks have been banging a drum for his exit for a while now, haven't they? -- making Palmiotti the heir apparent is just a variation on a well-worn theme)
3) we just want a good story, maaaaaaaan

I had lots of stuff to say about the things not tying up which I ended up not bothering to say - it's blatantly a huge editorial and marketing fuck-up and it's certainly hurt sales of the series, BUT it hasn't hurt my enjoyment of the actual comic. I'm shamefully fascinated by all the behind-the-scenes speculation.

As far as editorial cock-ups go:

Death of the New Gods editor = Mike Marts
Countdown editor (from #51-28) = Mike Marts (replaced w/ Mike Carlin)

I think Marts was the editor during GM's New X-Men run as well, & is also currently editing the Batbooks (as far as I know). I want to say there were issues wrt continuity during his Marvel tenure, but I can't find anything online about that.

I'm also not sure there's that big a contradiction anyway, other than the general mystique-killing of having the New Gods running all over the shop in a bunch of shite comics directly before FC.

As I remember it - and yes, I did read Countdown (ALL IN ONE DAY) and skimmed DOTNG - the Orion who shows up in Countdown 2 and kills Darkseid is a kind of spirit apparition or ghost, and the real Orion gets whacked in DOTNG 6, which Morrison has said in interview he'll refer to next issue.

This doesn't explain why the previous incarnation of Darkseid was spending his last days doing such completely stupid shit, but that's not really Morrison's look-out.

yeah hi i'm the one ilxor that read more than one issue of countdown and to the extent i give a fuck morrison is ignoring it (and pretty much anything and everything else going on in dcu right now that he feels like) i would have to describe that feeling as 'relief'. i do like that it contradicts countdown w/out even meaning to, that it doesn't seem too wrapped up in infinite crisis, and (esp) that it assumes some familiarity w/ seven soldiers and 52. i like that (this issue at least) it's able to have alot of action w/out the action just being 'ok FITE' like say trinity. loved that mm's death last issue and funeral this issue were covered in passing instead of being 80% of the issue like they surely wouldn't been otherwise. loved that his death has an effect/reason beyond a memo from management. LOVED the 'resurrection' remark.

The Dark Side Yogawear Club!

But I'm surprised that there has been no discussion (that I have seen here) re: the massive contradictions between Countdown/Death of New Gods and FC and how Morrison shrugged his shoulders and suggested it was DC editorial's fuckup (newsarama interview, I think).

Yeah, I'm sort of amused by the fact people seem to care about this, apart from in an "everyone loves behind the scenes gossip" kind of way. (Morisson's "they passed the New Gods around like Hep B" quote on Comic Foundry was particularly amusing to me).

Douglas, could you do a summation of Secret Invasion without referring to other comics? I'd wager not. I'm fairly hip to what's going on oguzat Marvel (I guess), but I genuinely don't have a clue what's going on there most of the time. Cluenessness is fine, but the story just isn't compelling enough for me to want to find out.

oguzat = typo of "at", but also fine name for future science fiction novel