funky house sceptics, let me draw your attention to this

i even find that martyn fabric mix a bit dull - all very artfully done but god it just seems so samey.

actually i suppose the thing that makes them idm-not-idm is that theyre kinda dancey arent they. not just about lovely melodies for listening on headphones at home or whatever (though afx and them had dance tunes too if course). i dont want to just slot them into the nu idm thing though, thats prob a bit lazy. really though this stuff just fits into house or techno. post dubstep shmubstep. its just techno/house. yawn.

Titchy said:
>> i even find that martyn fabric mix a bit dull - all very artfully done but god it just seems so samey.

Apart from the fact it doesnt have any vocal tunes, which i can understand some people might miss, its certainly no more samey than any funky mix.

perhaps samey is the wrong word then. i suppose i find it all too understated. maybe im just into trad techno-textured stuff. i dont think funky sets by say, marcus are samey though, theres such a variety of diff styles in all the rhythms he plays.

*just not into

I don't think Marcus' sets are samey either. Just think, whether you are into the Martyn one or not, samey wouldn't really be the apt diss. A bit too euro in places is my problem with it.

Obv there are quite a few people who think that you can't "everything that you want" from funky qua funky, and instead prefer the idea of funky as an one tool in a tool box. But whereas the line I've seen put out to explain this is that eclecticism is the go, really it's better to think of this as one big genre etc,I tend to think "maybe this person just isn't that into funky."

Which is fine, you know. And it makes sense that - given dubstep and funky and grime and bassline all do share certain similarities - that the kind of person who is/was quite into dubstep and what has emerged from it would also like at least some funky (and some bassline and etc.), and enjoy DJ sets and productions that meld these influences into some kind of coherent vibe - usually a kind of dark, percussive serious-but-fun thing, though of course there's room for a lot of diversity in that space.

But equally there must be lots of people who don't want or need to conceive of funky in this fashion, who feel that it sounds best and most itself in the context of DJ sets like Marcus Nasty's, in the form of productions like those of Devine Collective or Funkystepz or Donaeo or Fuzzy Logick or Naughty Raver or Scotty D - else there wouldn't be a scene, I wouldn't be able to count literally hundreds of funky tracks I loved last year. For me, and for what I have to assume are many listeners like me, funky is enough of a world by itself, it has the same depth that UK Garage had (and I followed garage as closely as I do funky now from late 1999 onwards, and in terms of depth-of-affection and the number/quality of great tracks I see them as about equal), and sounds great when mixed with itself - this being less about some notion of tunnel vision and more about what feels right.

Turning this issue into a question about "the continuum" gets this entirely backwards - ultimately everyone's just trying to justify liking the music they happen to like, so they twist and turn this notion the continuum to suit that. I think, Jon, you think I'm a curmudgeonly purist in part because my position on "the continuum" is that it only makes sense with respect to a particular population (i.e. based around London radio, MCs, etc.) - but this is not an insistence on the superior quality of the music made by that population; rather, I think that making its meaning any less restrictive turns it into something too meaningless and waftingly qualitative, like pipecock's notions of soul. Contrary to that, I think whether something = part of "the continuum" has little if anything to do with whether it's good music. Similarly, if a particular instance of eclecticism is good or bad, it has nothing to do with whether "the continuum has degenerated."

What annoys me is this attempt to objectivise funky's perceived inadequacy. The two most common critical arguments I see with respect to this music are "funky is insufficient on its own" and of course the post-XLR8R line, such as when URB say " Overall, it’s been tough to gauge a concrete grasp of what’s artistically and creatively fruitful in the genre of UK Funky. However, certain DJs and producers are giving the genre a backbone along with the pop cheese. Producers like Roska (or Mentor Roska, as he’s affectionally referred to), Cooly G, and Geeneus have all been pivotal in the shake-up of UK Funky, providing intrigue, depth, and necessary weight to a genre dominated by percussion and diva vocals."

Given the failure of any such writings to ever demonstrate anything beyond the most cursory familiarity with the genre I can't help but feel people are turning a subjective "I didn't feel this was worth investigating further" into an objective "there's actually nothing to see here, folks."

Which strikes me as much more curmudgeonly than me offering the occasional sideways jab at the same tendencies.

Or perhaps what's even more depressing is that the most politely framed jabs on my part will immediately call forth people telling me how wrong and unfair I am, never mind the (again, literally) hundreds of enthusiastic tl;dr recommendations of tracks I've made here, the vast majority being greeted with the sound of tumbleweed and crickets.

Whereas - and I don't mean this to be snide Jon, it's more of an exhortation for participation - I don't think you've ever even mentioned a funky track you like on this thread aside from Hard House Banton and Kode9.

Possibly I exaggerated, but I reckon I have individually recommended at least 100+ tracks on this thread by this point.

i think the crickets might be b/c so many of the tracks you mention are only found in the middle of some 4-hr rinse set. seriously if it's not available as an mp3 you can't expect anyone to track it down. i'd pretty much never heard of the devine collective until just now. idk it seems like you're the one policing the funky boundary a bit too heavily here ("proper" funky???) and reducing it to "stuff marcus nasty plays", and pretty much misrepresenting every artist who makes what you call "fact magazine music".

Seriously if you wait for funky tracks to emerge as standalone mp3s then you're missing out on 95% of what's good.

But here's "House Girls Part One", a massive anthem for over a year now. And not just with Marcus Nasty - with Mak10, with Crazy Cousinz, with Majesty, with Roska, with Ill Blu, with Hard House Banton, with Shox, with Dapper, with Il-Mana...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POe6EjRA0wI

thx! am in montreal right now but will listen when i get back.

i mean, i just don't have the time to listen to 4-hr sets, or indeed the inclination to listen to anything at the shockingly poor bitrate rinse sets are uploaded at.

and in naming crazy cousinz, roska, ill blu, illmana and hard house banton you've named producers who are lynchpins of funky-inclined "fact magazine music" sets!

i mean, i don't get where your impression that those producers are being unfairly dismissed or maligned comes from, even that urb para you quoted isn't actively negative (and tbh i've never heard of urb so can't really care about whatever they say).

rinse sets sound better if you play them on a proper system (i sometimes burn them on to cd).

house girls is MASSSSIVE. never knew who it was by til just now though lol.

oh shit "house girls" is amazing yes, can't get enough of that organ sound - am sure i've heard it out before actually. probably at night slugs, in fact

night slugs = home of fact funky.

Ha ha well aside from roska and 2 out of a billion Hard House Banton tracks, I'd note that pretty much none of those DJ sets that emerge as downloadable internet MP3s in fact do have all the vocal funky tunes these guys play when you see them live.

I mean you can't seriously tell me that the Smoke Less Fuels sets or FACT sets would keep you up to date with tunes like "Friend of Mine" or "Kiss", to name the two biggest vocal anthems at the moment. That's not a criticism, but let's not pretend there's no difference there.

In the same way that I wouldn't expect any of the above DJs except Roska to play "Nike", as great as it is.

The very fact that everyone immediately recognises "House Girls" but have no idea who Devine Collective are kinda proves my point! You'd immediately recognise "Tribal Conga" too, trust me.

Lex are you really saying you can't see how describing Scratcha DVA/Cooly G/Roska as adding a "necessary weight" to the scene is a slight???

yeah, but it's fairly mild and non-specific - incredibly lazy of course but it's hardly singling out [insert "proper" funky producer here] as a lightweight.

also half the djs you favour over "fact music" have actually djed at night slugs so... [i don't know how to do that shrug emoticon that jordan always does :( ]

Sure, and I never said the borders aren't porous, but there's a difference between asking "isn't Roska still a funky DJ when he plays at Night Slugs?" (answer: of course) and saying "there's no meaningful division between Martyn and Geneeus' funky tracks"

yeah, but it's fairly mild and non-specific - incredibly lazy of course but it's hardly singling out [insert "proper" funky producer here] as a lightweight.

That's because no-one who ever adopts this position ever actually listens long or hard enough to find out who might be lightweight.

it's like how minimal skeptics used to say "oh yeah, villalobos is great, but everyone else just sounds like insects copulating under a microscope, it's all the same." And if you asked them they could never say who exactly fit into the "all the same" category.

Also Lex I would have thought you'd be all over Screama's funky productions by now given his producer tag sample is a woman saying "Complex Simplicity!"

"Obv there are quite a few people who think that you can't "everything that you want" from funky qua funky, and instead prefer the idea of funky as an one tool in a tool box. But whereas the line I've seen put out to explain this is that eclecticism is the go, really it's better to think of this as one big genre etc,I tend to think "maybe this person just isn't that into funky."

@Tim: Well, beyond the fact that you might need to accept that not everyone loves funky in its entirety and as wholeheartedly as you, “getting everything you want from funky” is very dependent on what you want. If you're a writer who lives in Australia, then naturally what you want is to hear music that excites you more than pretty much all other genres. However if you're a producer or DJ in London, your needs aren't the same. Core pillars of the nuum are ownership and the power to change yet if you're Untold or Shortstuff, "owning" or properly participating in UK funky is less of an option than if you're Marcus Nasty or Supa D, because there are cultural barriers that inhibit or at least slow down this dialog, ie if you're not from the ends, you're not from the ends, and the ends invented and owns UK funky.

Much of this 130 funky-inspired music of oneman, bok bok, me n dusk, kode9, needs to be seen in this context, and I think its healthy that there's a musical dialog going on, primarily through Rinse, and yet also inevitable that it will be two parallel paths rather than one big whole, due to the nature of the backgrounds of the two groups.

The pros and cons of mono-genre purism v multi-genre eclectism depend massively on the health and breadth of the genres at a given time. Much of the discussion around funky-influenced ex-dubsteppers like oneman should be far more of a reflection of the state of dubstep now (narrow in breadth and universally noisy and rigid) than the state of UK funky. You may want to say that "unifying concepts like "UK Bass"' are "frankly awful" but I would at least commend people having learnt that sonic and creative diversity in a scene - which you now commend in funky but is broadly lost in dubstep - is healthy. Using a term "UK bass" has advantages because it seeks to define as little as possible, leaving room for creativity, while not attempting to be a genre of any kind.

@titchy: "eclecticism/blurring just means exactly that = something indistinct."

Not necessarily. The devil's in the details on this one. The pros and cons of "eclecticism/blurring" depend massively on the state and the sonic distances between the genres that you're blurring at a given time. Eclecticism rightly has a bad name because at worst sets are erratic and incoherent. but at the other extreme lies monochrome purist sets, where you're not sure if the DJ has changed the record yet or even if he even has more than one in his box. So I would argue that eclecticism between related styles can sometimes produce very interesting mutations, especially when you consider the relationship between DJing and production (DJ finds new blend, producer re-engineers unrelated elements to form new mutation, DJ plays that, mixes it with third record....). Both eclecticism and purism can be done very well and very badly – and I think people should be judged upon the results they produce, not the methods they use to get there.

Finally Tim, you need to let that XLR8R feature go. I was asked to do it, turned it down and sent them your name. I don’t know why you didn’t end up writing it but it’s clearly ignorant and over-reaches itself, rise above it fella!

Well, beyond the fact that you might need to accept that not everyone loves funky in its entirety and as wholeheartedly as you

I do! All I'm saying is, people should say "I'm not so into funky" rather than tying themselves into knots redefining it into something they can like, or pretending that they do like funky, really, just not the lightweight stuff that deserves to be dismissed.

If you're a writer who lives in Australia, then naturally what you want is to hear music that excites you more than pretty much all other genres. However if you're a producer or DJ in London, your needs aren't the same. Core pillars of the nuum are ownership and the power to change yet if you're Untold or Shortstuff, "owning" or properly participating in UK funky is less of an option than if you're Marcus Nasty or Supa D, because there are cultural barriers that inhibit or at least slow down this dialog, ie if you're not from the ends, you're not from the ends, and the ends invented and owns UK funky.

Yes, I get this. Again, I'm not complaining about Untold or Shortstuff - who both make pretty great music. I'm questioning the erasure of any stylistic distinction between them and Supa D by people talking about funky.

Much of this 130 funky-inspired music of oneman, bok bok, me n dusk, kode9, needs to be seen in this context, and I think its healthy that there's a musical dialog going on, primarily through Rinse, and yet also inevitable that it will be two parallel paths rather thanone big whole, due to the nature of the backgrounds of the two groups.

I agree with this. The only point I'm making is the one you make right here. In fact I challenge anyone to point to somewhere where I've even rubbished OneMan, Bok Bok etc. except saying that I thought the Bok Bok/L-Vis Night Slugs 2009 Dubs set was a bit drab.

Much of the discussion around funky-influenced ex-dubsteppers like oneman should be far more of a reflection of the state of dubstep now (narrow in breadth and universally noisy and rigid) than the state of UK funky.

Totally agree with this also.

Finally Tim, you need to let that XLR8R feature go. I was asked to do it, turned it down and sent them your name. I don’t know why you didn’t end up writing it but it’s clearly ignorant and over-reaches itself, rise above it fella!

I'm quoting from the Urb piece now Martin. It's more difficult to rise above when people keep making the same mistake over and over again. And as I've said before I appreciate you putting my name down, even if on paper it appears even more counter-intuitive!

Oh I see how you misread me now Martin - my comment about the toolbox perspective wasn't meant to refer to DJs and producers like Shortstuff - more other listeners who say "I'm not so into listening to funky on its own." Obv your point about producers and DJs having less freedom in that regard than listeners is totally correct.

Generally speaking, I think people here imagine I'm making much more controversial claims than I am in fact making.

And really, if people aren't prepared to make the investment of listening to radio sets and the like, then they're... not doing anything wrong obviously, but they're missing out on the most exciting music in the world. Keeping up with funky is a hell of a lot easier than keeping up with any of its 90s equivs would have been - as I think my example demonstrates to the point of excess.

Anyway, fabulous Ill Blu BBC set from last month here:

http://dunknowdablogspot.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/01-ill-blu-mix-bbc-1xtra-16th-dec-09.mp3

'truthful' is a great track. i wouldnt sign up for the uk funky branch davidians just yet though....

this post amused me:
http://www.dissensus.com//showthread.php?10353-New-Dancehall-mix-by-Unknown-Soulja&p=218091#post218091
i will say this... its much more worthwhile for you to download this mix than the 100000th amateur mashing together of the same old boring tunes that people keep doing. one token funky tune, some shit dubstep, some stupid 'wonky' and a token grime track.
those mixes are boring. that bollocks needs to stop now. this one is better. happy now U.S?

I don't see why it has to stop more than anything else. Yeah, that guy luka is a bit of cock.

i thought he was kina otm tbh. i was listening to that recent ish rankin set with seb chu where rankin was mcing over a load of diff stuff from old ukg to trudgestep and some other 'eclectic' bits and while it was cool to hear rankin on some other styles, it wasnt nearly as fun as when marcus is backing him. though that might be to do with seb chu rather than anything else. i wouldnt mind hearing oneman do some sets with more mcs just so see how the vibe flows.

Well, Luka never liked dubstep in any form whatsoever.

So if he thinks that dubstep is garbage, I could see where that would lead him to hate on eclecticism that revolves around dubstep with some token grime and funky thrown in.

I'm totally with Tim when he says that there is a very clear difference between mainstream Funky and between the whole Notts style, even if that difference is primarily in its audience and not necessarily in the music. But I live far far way from LDN, so how would I know for certain?

Notts style? what like spamfoot n littechop?

Its what Boomkat has been calling Shortstuff and Brackles.

Call it whatever you like, I don't care.

I'll think you'll find that out of the people who post on this thread I'm not one of the ones who has any financial interest in it. I don't write for any zines, work for any shops, or say own a successful label.

And that wasn't a dig at Luka, he doesn't like dubstep, its not a negative character trait its just his taste. Now I'm going to stay out of this thread, and Dissensus.

i dont have any financial interest in funky either. fwiw. but my mates dont write for fact, run night slugs or anything like that, i dont run fact, nor night slugs, or write for urb or whoever. id like to though. wouldnt mind a record label either. labels holler at a poster.

webzine owners too for that matter lol.

i thought he was kina otm tbh. i was listening to that recent ish rankin set with seb chu where rankin was mcing over a load of diff stuff from old ukg to trudgestep and some other 'eclectic' bits and while it was cool to hear rankin on some other styles, it wasnt nearly as fun as when marcus is backing him. though that might be to do with seb chu rather than anything else. i wouldnt mind hearing oneman do some sets with more mcs just so see how the vibe flows.

I think this was maybe Seb Chu more than anything else - a bit disappointing as I think he's an amazing producer ("You Got Me" 4 eva!).

Illmanna & Oziah ft. Doctor - Wind For Me

Banger.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/9706r8

Ach, if you're around:

You know that track you snipped back in July and asked if it was Devine Collective's "Gotta Have It"? Well, right group wrong track, it's actually called "Night Train".

<quote>"...because there are cultural barriers that inhibit or at least slow down this dialog, ie if you're not from the ends, you're not from the ends, and the ends invented and owns UK funky" - martin clark </quote>

not too sure where the ends is but whats some of these cultural barriers ?

TFL mainly.

huh ?

"not too sure where the ends is but whats some of these cultural barriers"

the barrier of class.

so shortstuff and untold are upper/middle class and marcus nasty and supa d are?...underclass who own funky cos they're from the ends where ever that is, but i'll assume it's some shithole in london ?

sorry, but i just dont get it.

"Much of this 130 funky-inspired music of oneman, bok bok, me n dusk, kode9, needs to be seen in this context, and I think its healthy that there's a musical dialog going on, and yet also inevitable that it will be two parallel paths rather than one big whole, due to the nature of the backgrounds of the two groups."

...or by class/culture/backgrounds and the parallel paths do you mean race and the dialogue is the reappproriation of the 'sounds of the street'(black) and gentrifying them for the middle class(white) hipsters ?

seems you're doing the same thing to funky as you did to dubstep. localising and claiming ownership over a sound as with the croydon mob, narrowly defining it within the 'nuum, then cloning an inferior/whiter version of it and claiming it as true to the ideal while dissing others who do exactly the same.

i dont really care about whos upper class or not. im more interested in whos making weak, deficient, near insipid versions of this stuff and getting all the attention.

but good points there its all about face.

@ (its all about face)

Is inspiration always appropriative or only when the inspired person is white and middle class? Is it different for a white middle class producer to be inspired by something as opposed to a white middle class journalist? Both may make some money or at least cultural capital out of the inspiration/appropriation, but as this debate seems to be about an alleged lack of recognition for funky artists making 'better' music, then surely both are helping increase awareness of the sound. Can you imagine what harder task Tim would have flying the flag for the likes of Ill Blu etc. if FACT mag hadnt given some coverage to some of the funky producers and DJs that appeal to their taste like Roska. I mean, it is conceivable, that with good reason many people could find Roska and co. better than Ill Blu. Is there something wrong with that apart from not sharing that musical preference?

black once again with the ill behaviour/Dubmugga, if you're gonna troll, at least have the balls to log in with your real name.

i'm not trolling and what difference does posting under a real name make ? forget the bulshit and just expand on your 'parallel paths and differing backgrounds in a class barrier context as it relates to funky

oh and on a personal note, please stop making weak, deficient, near insipid versions of this stuff and getting all the attention and pass the message onto kode9 and grievous angel as well...ta:)

FWIW titchy...i too dont give a shit about the upperclasses making music as long as its good.

"Is it different for a white middle class producer to be inspired by something as opposed to a white middle class journalist? "

if it makes it harder for the real innovators to shine cos some privileged journo decides to become a producer and clone whatevers flavour of the month sound, then yeah. and by privileged i mean the position of being a music journo as opposed to not having an underclass background.

whats with the ugly trend of 'journos turn producer and pimp themselves and their mates in some closed loop' anyway ? journos making the news instead of just reporting it.

in his defence, grevious angel is an amazing dj (dubstep sufferah mixes are just sublime and better than a lot of the DSAS cds tbh). i like kode 9 best as a dj too.

@ its all about face

I'd be interested to hear which former journo has 'cloned' funky without adding something (for better or worse).