Do we have a PAZZ AND JOB 2009 thread yet?

@some dude: sometimes PFork recants though or hedges and revises.

Case in point: Fever to Tell got a sort of damning with half praise review when it initially came out, but later made top 50 of the decade. Discovery got an even worse review and was even higher later. See also Andrew W.K.

Okay, sure, Al -- PF should've reviewed De Stijl at the time. I'm still not sure what that has to do with what we're talking about, though. It's not just indie bands that are popular without Pitchfork. It's indie bands that are *critically* popular in *the last few years* without Pitchfork.

well, i was being pedantic about a smaller point made upthread, not the big picture debate here. PF were reviewing 4 albums a day then compared to 5 now, so it just seems odd to me that a band that had been touring w/ Pavement and Sleater-Kinney, as the White Stripes had at that point, got kinda slept on by the site.

does anyone know how much a gap there is between # of readers, say, Stereogum, has and the # of reads P4k has?

― kshighway (ksh), Thursday, January 21, 2010 11:48 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

it's actually chasmlike. pfork DOMINATES all over any sort of indie blog, so the sense of entitlement a lot of them have is extra lolleriffic

though, stuff like Rolling Stone.com gets as much traffic as pitchfork on any given day. And the type of traffic that fuels shit like TMZ or Perez makes p4k look like it has the readers your little sister's myspace page

damn your sister must be hot

Oh, sorry, here's the correct link to the Artist Chart. (jaymc caught this already)

There was only one 2009 ballot that had more than three songs by the same artist (Jimmy Draper's Lady Gaga fiesta), and only three others with 3, so the counts aren't being abused that way. But the album-overlap is pretty significant. Here's a new table comparing the total vote-count to the count excluding song/album overlap (technically speaking, excluding song-votes from ballots with an album by the same artist; I don't have actual track-listings to work with, so some of these might be non-album singles). As surmised, GAPDY suffer dramatically in this version. Jay-Z still wins, but Lady Gaga and Taylor Swift jump up to #2 and 3.

This would solve the laziness issue - you can either vote for the single or the album, but not both - but it would penalize acts who release a great album that also spawns a lot of great singles.

Right, it would've cut into "Smells Like Teen Spirit" and "Billie Jean" and "When Doves Cry" and "Dancing In The Dark" and "Bring The Noise" etc. votes, which obviously makes no sense. I would actually advocate, though, a limit on the number of album-duplicating singles you can put on your ballot. Maybe two or three, tops. Beyond that, all your duplicating singles don't count. May actually mention this to Harvilla.

something has to be done

It would be nice if something was.

only one 2009 ballot that had more than three songs by the same artist

Well, that's not what I meant. I meant if you vote for three different singles off of three different albums you also voted for, not all off the same album. But I'll check that link when I have a chance.

damn your sister must be hot

I lold

xpost

yeah, that totally makes sense Whiney. i know plenty of people who reach P4k but, say, zero who read GvB or whateverthefuck.

Alexa rankings:

Rolling Stone: #2,457
NME: #2,819
Pitchfork: #2,903
Resident Advisor: #9,208
Stereogum: #10,162
Paste: #10,356
PopMatters: #12,153
Brooklyn Vegan: #14,921
Spin: #16,307

my mind is always blown at PopMatters traffic

Here's a new table comparing the total vote-count to the count excluding song/album overlap

This table seems much improved. A single should be something that appeals to more people than those who like the whole album.

xp Maybe b/c it's not just a music site but an all-purpose arts/culture/media site?

thanks for those rankings, jaymc! didn't realize there'd be such a disparity between Spin and Rolling Stone, tbh

also, most of the stuff I've read on PopMatters is really, really poorly written

I was actually surprised at how low Spin.com was, too. Then again, I'm not sure who its target audience is anymore.

So, according to Glenn's chart there (assuming I'm understanding it right), these are the singles that drew fewer than half of their votes from people who didn't also vote for the album (or, if this is clearer, more than half of their votes from people who did vote for the album):

4 Phoenix · 1901 81 38 0.469
5 Grizzly Bear · Two Weeks 65 29 0.446
7 Yeah Yeah Yeahs · Zero 59 29 0.492
8 Dirty Projectors · Stillness Is the Move 64 28 0.438
12 Animal Collective · My Girls 76 23 0.303
48 Yeah Yeah Yeahs · Heads Will Roll 27 10 0.37
67 Animal Collective · What Would I Want? Sky 14 2 0.143

why is this a problem again? because they're indie rock?

xhuxk, you're missing:

55 Girls · Hellhole Ratrace 17 8 0.471
57 Neko Case · This Tornado Loves You 19 8 0.421

But otherwise, yeah.

why is this a problem again? because they're indie rock?

No, it's just more boring when the albums and singles list overlap so much.

xp Yeah just noticed that! Oops, missed these two:

55 Girls · Hellhole Ratrace 17 8 0.471
57 Neko Case · This Tornado Loves You 19 8 0.421

These get exactly half of their support from album voters:

53 The xx · Crystalised 18 9 0.5
58 Raekwon (ft. Ghostface Killah, Inspectah Deck and Method Man) · House of Flying Daggers 16 8 0.5
60 Brad Paisley · Welcome to the Future 14 7 0.5

Singles that scored between 0.5 and 0.6: Girls "Lust For Life," Phoenix "Lisztomania," Bat For Lashes "Daniel," Maxwell "Pretty Wings," Avett Brothers "I And Love You," Pearl Jam "The Fixer," St. Vincent "Actor Out Of Work," Very Best (w Ezra Koenig) "Warm Heart Of Africa."

xp I think it's boring either way

albums and singles lists used to be different, though, a real demonstrable yin and yang. whether they wore boring, they were boring in different ways too.

i guess those days are over?

fucking internet ruined music this blows

2009: the year indie broke pazz'n'jop

but why should they be? P&J is one of the only major year-end lists that does singles-qua-singles, not just albums, not 'tracks,' and I think having that is valuable. (xpost)

i almost wonder if the pop critics are dying out because indie-critics have the DIY ethic where they're happy to do a review for $20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbhjXVHFeXA

Also, you could argue that Animal Collective's "What Would I Want? Sky" shouldn't be on there, because the Fall Be Kind EP that it appears on only got two album votes, while the song got 14 votes. But it looks like 12 of those 14 votes were from people who also voted for Merriweather Post Pavilion.

i'm with some dude. i really think p&J should be hard and about SINGLES. but then how do we decide what a single is?

i'm not even really sure what indie songs are actually released as singles and which ones aren't--i guess maybe that's how most of the votership feels?

i go on whether i hear something mainly outside of the context of the album or my iTunes (radio, TV, clubs and parties), because i mean, i liked the Quik & Kurupt singles, but i didn't really hear them anywhere unless i was the one pressing 'play' myself.

Which songs in particular are people bitching about re: not being singles? What are the hands-down "wtf no video, no 7", no promotion, BULLSHIT INDIE MOTHER FUCKER" plain and blatant album tracks.

xpost ok, "a single is defined by ubiquity" is one answer

as noted above, all the songs in the top 10 had videos and were, to some degree, promoted as 'singles' or emphasis tracks, and maybe the voters did hear them out at parties a lot or whatever. i mean, it's not for me to say whether them hearing a song at an indie dance party (or something? do they play new stuff at those or only old Smiths and Depeche Mode songs?) is less valid than me hearing a song on a Radio One-owned station or MTV Hits, but i think it's worth talking about.

how do we decide what a single is?

You really can't anymore, not when basically every song can be bought individually on iTunes or wherever. I mean, I know in my head what I'd consider a single, for my own list. But by the late '90s (really, starting with ubiquitous AOR airplay tracks that were never released alone, even pre-digital era) it became impossible to enforce.

Honestly, when Christgau let Doug Simmons vote for Guns N Roses' "Civil War" in 1991, that opened the floodgates. It's been downhill ever since.

This doesn't directly address the poll or the critics voting in it, but I've noticed with my students that the Shared Listening Experience we've talked so much about is gone – unless you're attending the indie dance party that Al mentioned. It's got something to do with the line blurring between "single" and "track I really like": if you no longer listen to the radio, you get your music from sampling it on YouTube, then either buy the track online or download it illegally. Listening is more atomized.

ha, at least "Civil War" was a decent-sized rock radio hit!

and maybe the voters did hear them out at parties a lot or whatever

so fucking help me if i go to a party and someone plays GIRLS

would leave that party

Still not sure why the Best Singles Of The Year have to be the Best Hit Singles Of The Year

Because as much as everyone wants to decry popularity, it's still a valid component to the equation one uses to evaluate something's worth.

my secondary nagging issue here is, the people that vote for songs from albums on their ballot, are they voting for it because it's their favorite song or because it's the single or the best known track? is it strategic or pure passion? because part of the reason i don't vote for my favorite deep cut off of the Sonic Youth or Jarvis Cocker album or w/e my favorite indie albums are in a given year is that they'd be my own particular favorite and the odds would be very slim of anyone else voting for it. and i dunno, if people can really easily agree on the best track from an album that kinda says something negative about the album as a whole.

pretty sure everyone voted for a song they thought at the very least SHOULD be a hit, and i'm still waiting to hear which track in the top 40 was a breach of faith re: single status.

I voted for "Heads Will Roll" because it was so much my favorite song that I often played it and nothing else on the album (and lol I did hear it at an indie dance party).

civil war was a big single in the uk

There are five songs in the top 20 that the Singles Jukebox didn't cover:

Girls - Lust for Life
Lady Gaga - Poker Face
Kings of Leon - Use Somebody
Atlas Sound - Walkabout
Kid Cudi - Day N Nite

The Gaga, Cudi, and Kings of Leon singles came out before the Jukebox was revived in March and almost certainly would've been covered otherwise.

As for the other two: "Walkabout" was available as a promo mp3 on 4AD's website. Can't tell if there was a video or not. "Lust for Life" was released as a limited-edition 7" and had a video.

if people can really easily agree on the best track from an album that kinda says something negative about the album as a whole

I don't know if "a lot of people easily agree that this song is the best one on the album" is a de facto negative statement without a ton of inference turning "best" into "only song worth listening to"