Rolling Teenpop 2007 Thread

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No, he'd need to want to be Mike Patton!

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:04 (sixteen years ago) link

― Poptext, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:26 (sixteen years ago) link

i still don't see FOB and MCR as pop at all, i am holding out here. it's the voices. i didn't see blink 182 or sum 41 as pop either!

Lex, I'd love it if you'd say more about the Hilary, since I'm just having a lot of trouble feeling it. ("Danger," my second favorite song on it, is a Paris sound-alike that isn't as good as Paris would do it, and even so it would only be the 10th best thing on the Paris album.)

probably easiest if i explain what i didn't like so much first - on the first few listens i thought it was expertly executed electropop but clumsy (lyrically and production-wise) in comparison to its nearest relative (rachel stevens' come and get it) and, most of all, i missed the transcendentally gorgeous hilary of 'wake up' and 'come clean'. a lot of how i came to love dignity is just the process of adjusting my ears to who hilary is now - and also, separating the songs from each other. it's a really consistent album, in quality and in sound, which means that you don't get the songs which stand out from the pack and it can be...a mass of 14 solid tracks.

the production is definitely better with time though - there are some great touches, that little guitar phrase on 'happy', the crunkish beats on 'burned', the stutter beats and really, really treated guitar on 'with love'. the variety's coming out - it's a sonically coherent electro-rock crunch throughout, but by turns melodramatic and light and vengeful and caught up in itself. sometimes inappropriately so: 'happy' is a quintessential "trying to convince myself of an emotion i don't feel" song, while 'dreamer' is a super-breezy, super-casual, super-generous kiss-off which is all about being stalked and sent death threats (which actually happened to hilary!).

i've also reached the stage where...this is hard to explain, but it's like, i've got over every obstacle i may have had with the album, i like each of the songs as songs, any one of them could now become a song i couldn't imagine living without.

two further things - 1) you know 'gypsy woman' is actually about hilary's parents' divorce, right? and the titular femme fatale is the woman her dad ran off with. which explains its nastiness - contra the usual femme fatale narrative in pop, hilary's not romanticising her (eg 'maneater' and 'gold digger' which are as much celebrations of the subject as warnings; and in the case of the former the obvious subtext is "i, nelly, am the maneater"). 2) will.i.am is apparently one of the producers - i could look this up but can't be bothered, i can't even begin to imagine which song he did though

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 18:36 (sixteen years ago) link

OK, explanation of "Gypsy Woman" officially makes it my song of the year. PROFOUND WTF.

This is something from Maura's abstract for her EMP paper about freestyle, relevant here because of Frank's connection btw "Happy" and freestyle (been listening to a bunch of freestyle lately through these CD comps plus some old cheap vinyl):

I listen to "Too Turned On" and "Spring Love" in the privacy of my own home, and when you're alone, it's hard not to notice the deep longing of lyrics like "I had to leave you / And that's where my heartache began." Alisha and Stevie B were hardly the only freestyle artists who, instead of describing the hedonism of the dance floor, sang about the emotions that propelled people there; the genre's minor-key trappings only serve as a further reminder that the world beyond the club was never far away. In my paper, I'm going to discuss why freestyle, despite its continued presence at parties around the New York area, is at its core a genre defined by loneliness, and why—as a wise man once told me—Stevie B could be considered one of the more unlikely godfathers of emo.

Anyway, this is more interesting in re: freestyle than "Happy" (which is a great song, but probably doesn't stand up to anything Maura's interested in in the paper) but it offered me a way of looking at the obvious music/lyrical split ("trying to convince myself of an emotion i don't feel") -- well, the "feel" comes partially from that minor freestyle-ish melancholy. And the relative lack of such affectation/referencing of this genre makes it stand out that much more (and makes it that much more powerful, IMO).

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 18:49 (sixteen years ago) link

That is to say, the music, not Hilary, sells the melancholy. Hilary's performance is fairly perfunctory -- but if one thing is clear, at least, it's that she's not happy. (She's not really much of anything, which can be a problem or an appropriate style -- here I think it's appropriate, in "Fly" its seeming inappropriateness makes the song more interesting, in "Beat of My Heart" and "Wake Up," it's totally perfect.)

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 18:52 (sixteen years ago) link

as if the feeling were in the melody and the voice just let it come through in a beautiful sketch

I dunno, this is a lovely metaphor but I'm not sure it's how/why Hilary's voice works for me. I like androids, tho (and identify, e.g., with Haley Joel Osment in AI) so LACK of human feeling or the awkward approximation of it can often be weirdly endearing to me, and I might hear it in places that Frank doesn't (like "Fly," though not really "Come Clean," where the emotion and song don't seem so much at odds with one another).

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:02 (sixteen years ago) link

"Silly robot, feelings are for [real] kids!"

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:03 (sixteen years ago) link

Surely at least some of how we're able to see FOB and MCR as 'pop qua pop' has something to do with the shift of the emo aesthetic to mainstream amongst 'the kids'. If, contextually, the style and cultural cues of the genre were very much a marginal/underground phenomenon, then would we draw the N*sync comparison/ would we even think of doing so, regardless of what the music actually sounded like?

Well who knows, but even if we didn't, that doesn't mean the comparison doesn't exist. They seem to be a boyband in the same way that the Beatles were. Nevertheless, now that they're here in pop, it's fun to think of them that way, which maybe involves removing some of their context (they write their own songs, have clear frontmen, etc.) and highlighting instead the theatricality, willful embrace of fashion and artificiality, their high-level place within a gossip discourse, separate personalities for each member, and existance as a unit with certain members being more prominent. I like thinking that the turn-of-the-century boybands could have fulfilled the artistic goals they seemed to be rising toward, but only by breaking the modern boyband format and reclaiming an old one, i.e. the Beatles.

My contention (and I'm going to write about this next week I think) is that emo, by accruing a large fanbase, engaged in a move toward the mainstream, embracing its values and so becoming viable as pop. MCR and FOB completed this process with their last albums, which were only emo in the way that my non-observant atheist girlfriend is Jewish. Most of their songs sound nothing like emo did as recently as five years ago. We can argue about whether or not they are making pop music (although I think they are if you think Blondie and Poison were making pop music) but they're most definitely pop acts, given their place in the culture and the way their albums are presented to us. I think I really like emo now, but I only like its new version, the one that seems related to great pop-rock bands in a way Hinder (say) can only dream of. And pop-rock bands wer teenpop in the 80s, right?

― Eppy, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:06 (sixteen years ago) link

i don't hear hilary (or rachel, or kylie) as a robot though. lack of forceful personality != mechanical. pussycat dolls are robots (in a GREAT way), not hilary. they're...just girls. everygirls. they sing the notes so you can feel the song.

xp

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:08 (sixteen years ago) link

Yeah, like there's this band now that plays pop-metal songs but there's no lead singer, just occasional chanting. Pussycat Dolls are like the backup singers trying to take over for the absent lead singer and it's occasionally awesome, even if "Beep" makes me want to stick forks in my ears.

― Eppy, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:10 (sixteen years ago) link

not to sidetrack, but Kelly Clarkson confirmed that the label indeed wanted to junk the new album:

[Removed Illegal Link]

― Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:12 (sixteen years ago) link

arrrgh my first link disaster.

― Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:12 (sixteen years ago) link

I agree with you on Rachel (especially...I think Edward O wrote a good defense of her voice once that wasn't in robot-terms) and Kylie, but Hilary really does strike me as androidish (android's not exactly the same as robot, I suppose -- it's SUPPOSED to be human, there's just something...you know, a little strange).

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:13 (sixteen years ago) link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_vN9wYIuCc

― Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:14 (sixteen years ago) link

I LOVE 'BEEP' (but not as much as 'buttonz') xps

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:15 (sixteen years ago) link

[/i]closed tag.

― Eppy, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:16 (sixteen years ago) link

Trying again.

― Eppy, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:16 (sixteen years ago) link

Hm, my sense of both FOB and MCR was that they never sounded particularly emo; it just took a while for rock-crit types to catch up with the unwashed teenage masses on the pop brilliance. (I have absolutely no idea if this is true since I've only heard both their most recent albums.)

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:16 (sixteen years ago) link

(This happened on another thread once. Just code indigestion or something. It'll pass.)

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:17 (sixteen years ago) link

Well they both exist very much in the context of emo I think. Both they and their audience think of themselves that way, no? And so in that case people's definition of emo changed at least. (The members of FOB used to be in a much more traditionally emo-sounding band, also.)

― Eppy, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:19 (sixteen years ago) link

just girls. everygirls

^uh, italicized.

My girlfriend pointed out the other day that Lindsay's charm until recently was as a girl-next-door type. Then I remembered that I wouldn't have been able to pick her out of a crowd till I started listening to her music (I saw her in Mean Girls and I still couldn't really distinguish her from other actresses in a general sorta way afterwards). I think Lindsay has this everygirl charm, which is why it's also a little strange what a tabloid black hole she's become (well, duh, it's her behavior, fine), but I don't think this applies to Hilary so much. Everything about her is a little too canned, planned, safe. None of which has much bearing on her music, but tell a story about Hilary that isn't like that of, say, Kelly (everygirl w/ diva chops) or Ashlee (everygirl but you don't REALLY know her, she's actually totally unique) or Lindsay (everygirl with prrrrrrrrooooooobblleemmmmms)

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:20 (sixteen years ago) link

I don't know about Fall Out Boy, but "Helena" sounds way more emo than "Welcome to the Black Parade," and I liked them better in that incarnation: they were a little more nervous and jagged.

― jaymc, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:20 (sixteen years ago) link

Dave, you should read the Lohan thread on ILE if you want to see how other people think about her. Also, to be a little yigged out. Speaking of creepy...

― Eppy, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:22 (sixteen years ago) link

xpost Yeah, Helena was totally an emo song in that at least 50% of it consisted of unlistenable thrashing. But omg that chorus. Maybe you heard it differently.

― Eppy, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:23 (sixteen years ago) link

Kelly (everygirl w/ diva chops) or Ashlee (everygirl but you don't REALLY know her, she's actually totally unique) or Lindsay (everygirl with prrrrrrrrooooooobblleemmmmms)

ie they're not really everygirls, ultimately! whereas hilary and rachel really are.

everygirl with DIGNITY?

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:23 (sixteen years ago) link

And so in that case people's definition of emo changed at least. <in italics>

Well this is sort of my point re: your idea here...what does mainstream success have to do with how they sound? And if they sound no different (again, I don't know this, maybe they do), how can they be "embracing" the values of pop, if their values (in how they sound, anyway) haven't changed that much? Is it about their values or ours? And who's included in "ours," their burgeoning-to-huge fanbase or the critic-types who've hopped on the bandwagon a little late?

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:23 (sixteen years ago) link

I have italicized the thread, it appears. I'm really sorry.

I think the Kylie comparisons are excellent vis a vis the new Hilary. Kylie indeed does sound robotic at times (most of Fever, for example), and it is, in my opinion, a conscious decision to create a sort of futuristic, cold-beauty aesthetic. But on Dignity, Hilary sounds less robotic than simply fragile. And I think it doesn't quite work like it did on previous faves from the first two albums. Perhaps her vocals are best on Danger, the Paris-imitation track!

― Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:24 (sixteen years ago) link

the ile lohan thread is funny! i dunno i love tabloid-friendly hot messes. i want to party with lindsay, frankly.

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:24 (sixteen years ago) link

Well yeah.

― Eppy, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:25 (sixteen years ago) link

Anyway, I should just go and write my post about the whole thing and stop burdening the teenpop thread with rock-talk.

― Eppy, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:26 (sixteen years ago) link

Ah but Lex, she WANTS dignity but ain't gettin' it! She doesn't know what she wants. She's an android -- she wants things she can never have. Such longing! It breaks my heart (I should note that I almost cry whenever I watch AI, though maybe it's the FUCK YOU SPIELBERG manipulation that is "mommy has to go away now, David." What a brilliant hack!)

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:26 (sixteen years ago) link

Yeah, Helena was totally an emo song in that at least 50% of it consisted of unlistenable thrashing. But omg that chorus. Maybe you heard it differently.

The thrashing isn't unlistenable because a) there's an actual melody buried in there, albeit a twisted one, and b) it's a necessary contrast to the chorus. I don't think I would like the song nearly as much if it didn't exist.

― jaymc, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:27 (sixteen years ago) link

[/url] [/i] testing testing [/code] testing

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:30 (sixteen years ago) link

Now you can all see how I troubleshoot. "Hm, what does this button do?"

testing again

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:31 (sixteen years ago) link

ie they're not really everygirls, ultimately! whereas hilary and rachel really are.

Naw, the other way around! Kelly and Ashlee and Lindsay are everygirls because every girl is a little bit fucked up. Hilary's a robot--she never malfunctions--so how can you relate?

I forget who asked upthread and why, but will.i.am is credited as a writer on "Play with Fire."

― Nia, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:37 (sixteen years ago) link

I don't think there's anything you can do about it, dabug. It's happened before, and I think an admin has to fix it. Or something.

OK, another observation about My Chemical Romance, past and present, based on approximately two songs from the most recent album and two songs from the one before it: I was attracted to "Ghost of You" and "Helena" partially because they are were in minor keys, which better conveyed Mr. Way's tortured feelings. "Welcome to the Black Parade" has a typical "rock" chord progression and solos that sound like Brian May: apart from the usual shouting, it sounds bombastic in a bells-and-whistles classic-rock way, rather than in an an organic-emotional-catharsis way.

― jaymc, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:38 (sixteen years ago) link

dabug cannot debug. dabug sad <sad emotion card processing> ...:(

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:43 (sixteen years ago) link

Well, if I remember correctly, there are generally doses of minor with (again generally) major-key fist-pumpin' choruses. The connection to Mr. Bungle is (partially, aside from obvious vocal tics) in the more complex structure of some of the songs, where minor slips in and out, but a little, er LOT, less ADD-led than Mr. B et al.

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:44 (sixteen years ago) link

And one guitar solo has a part almost directly ripped from "November Rain"!

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:45 (sixteen years ago) link

I forget who asked upthread and why, but will.i.am is credited as a writer on "Play with Fire."

what with fergie, 'beep', ciara's 'get in fit in' and now this, will.i.am has emerged as such an unlikely genius.

also: i have now heard aly & aj! finally! i love love 'potential breakup song'!

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 19:51 (sixteen years ago) link

Reba McEntire: Because Of You feat. Kelly Clarkson
Label: MCA Nashville
Version: Album Version
Total Time: 03:43
Available Date: 16-May-2007

― Frank Kogan, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 21:35 (sixteen years ago) link

They sang that together on the Country music awards on tv (discussed over on the rolling country thread).

― curmudgeon, Thursday, 17 May 2007 03:13 (sixteen years ago) link

Having been utterly predictable about my single of the year so far, I had a think about what might be snapping at its heels. And was then shocked to discover that there has been no discussion at all on this thread about Natasha's "Hey Hey Hey". I know Kat Stevens has bigged it up on poptimists so I assumed it must have featured here too, but no.

I was a bit meh about "So Sick" to begin with (am slowly warming to it now), but "Hey Hey Hey" grabbed me instantly. Obvious points of comparison are Amerie and maybe Ciara, but this has a bubbliness that I haven't so far detected in those R&B divas.

See the video (with bonus excerpt of "So Sick" at the end) here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU9YuWl8yOc

― Jeff W, Thursday, 17 May 2007 15:55 (sixteen years ago) link

Jeff, the comparison that jumps to mind is the last three tracks on the Cassie album, which, as I mentioned upthread and I think it was you pointed out in poptimists, are total bubblegum. And this Natasha number pulls the same trick the Cassie does: the track blows bubbles and spins ferris wheels while the singer maintains her cool.

Here's a higher-quality transfer of the vid.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 17 May 2007 19:06 (sixteen years ago) link

Great echoing snare about two-thirds of the way in; even though the rest of the music continues, the snare takes center stage, and the echo makes everything feel in a lonely place. So the effect is dub, for several seconds. Double bubble dub gum.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 17 May 2007 19:46 (sixteen years ago) link

Here's the Kelly/Reba video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QqcCOM1ELM

I'm at work so I can't really listen to it loudly enough to hear the country touches, but I assume they're there. I hate Reba McEntire so much. Damn her sitcom. (Which Kelly appeared on, apparently.) Damn her sitom to hell.

― Eppy, Thursday, 17 May 2007 19:55 (sixteen years ago) link

Fortunately this isn't the version of the Reba/Kelly that's on the single - at least, I'm pretty sure it isn't. It'd better not be. I've loved a previous Reba song or two, but she's a bleating goat here. Kelly sings very nicely in support, however.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 17 May 2007 21:43 (sixteen years ago) link

Teenpop and Stooges collide (again):

[im][Removed Illegal Link]

^Iggy!

― dabug, Friday, 18 May 2007 01:08 (sixteen years ago) link

Psh, let's try this again...

http://www.variety.com/graphics/photos/_mugw/Wood_elijah.jpg

^IGGY!

― dabug, Friday, 18 May 2007 01:08 (sixteen years ago) link

Skye's officially been dropped from Capitol. Tim Armstrong confirmed it on a radio show talking about the "Into Action" single. Apparently she "gave it to him" because it had nowhere else to go. So, one more time...

http://a856.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/6/l_0d40b3d7bceccb91624916624164b3d7.jpg

She's still looking for a new band (via email submission/MySpace promotion!), so maybe she'll tour the songs independently or find a new label. Still, it sucks.

― dabug, Saturday, 19 May 2007 03:35 (sixteen years ago) link

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