Being sexually attracted to (or repulsed by) certain racial types: the acceptable face of racism?

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haha, post-judice = like god or sumfin'

Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:42 (twenty years ago) link

How about 'sub judice'? You never stop learning (or changing yr judgements).

The thing is, choices and decisions and value judegements are necessary. We all need closure at some point. If everything is sub-judice all the time, it's chaos. And the context I most hear that phrase in is when the authorities gag the press, telling them they can report something because it's being judged. In other words, 'You can't judge this before I do.'

Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:45 (twenty years ago) link

can can't

Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:46 (twenty years ago) link

the word you're looking for is "estimation" or "opinion," M

always happy to help

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 15:24 (twenty years ago) link

Kim OT fucking M, as always.

Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 15:32 (twenty years ago) link

In other words, nobody would expect all actors in society to be entitled to exactly the same life experiences as all others, and even if we expected an open-minded person to be willing to consider marrying partners of all races, we wouldn't expect him or her to actually marry someone from every race, one after the other.

This would actually be the greatest thing ever and will be the cornerstone of my 2008 presidential campaign.

VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 16:14 (twenty years ago) link

Well, you'll get the polygamy vote. Utah is yours for the taking.

Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 16:37 (twenty years ago) link

HOORAY.

VengaDan Perry for President (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 16:41 (twenty years ago) link

PERRY IN '08

He'll give it to everyone.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:07 (twenty years ago) link

(On a more serious note, I don't think I've ever agreed with anything Momus has said more strongly than I have with the sentence I quoted.)

VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:09 (twenty years ago) link

Perry-Momus - the dream ticket. Book your seat on the Venga campaign bus now.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:14 (twenty years ago) link

It does sound more appealing than the Kerry campaign, scarily enough.

El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:15 (twenty years ago) link

(I am more than half-serious about running for president in 2008, BTW)

VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:16 (twenty years ago) link

In that case more than 90% of your posts here would have to be deleted....depending on the tenor of your campaign.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:17 (twenty years ago) link

Right now I'm hoping for Ian Bostridge or Anthony Dean Griffey.

VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:18 (twenty years ago) link

Dan if you run for President in 2008 it may well be the greatest thing ever.

Ricardo (RickyT), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:24 (twenty years ago) link

From reading personal ads, it seems like women are in general more likely have racial preferences. Especially online, where this is as easy as omitting checks from a few boxes. Lots of women seem to be willing to date anyone so long as they aren't black or middle-eastern. Or they'll dodge the race question and eliminate Muslim men.

Chris H. (chrisherbert), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:37 (twenty years ago) link

Eliminate them? Cripes - what magazines are you reading?

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:47 (twenty years ago) link

The National Review, obv.

El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:48 (twenty years ago) link

Look at a personal ad site online. Match.com or whatever, and you'll see people, mostly women, with a long list of acceptable religions/denominations, and Muslim will not be there. That's all I mean. I don't know, maybe they're afraid that muslim men will beat them or something, that's the stereotype, isn't it?

Chris H. (chrisherbert), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:58 (twenty years ago) link

Or maybe they feel that the Muslim world view is incompatible with theirs? Who knows? I wouldn't date a devout Muslim for that reason, but I would have no problem dating a Muslim who was one merely by circumstance and didn't practice. Bit also, I couldn't see myself dating a devout Christian or Jew. But... I think I could probably date a Quaker. Hmmmmmm....

Lil' Fancy Kpants (The K is Silent) (ex machina), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 18:01 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah, but these sites have really long lists of religions. Quaker would probably fall under Protestant. But using Match.com as an example, possible choices are: Agnostic, Atheist, Buddhist/Taoist, Christian/Catholic, Christian/LDS, Christian/Protestant, Christian/Other, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim/Islam, Spiritual but not religious, and Other.

Maybe I'm being a policeman, but it seems suspicious to think that anything *except* muslim is okay.

Chris H. (chrisherbert), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 18:07 (twenty years ago) link

Yea, aren't Hindus kind of stereotypically sexist? (Although most I've met -- grad students -- have been just very nice kids.)

Offtopic: Most people I'd met from India before college were the children of Muslim doctors immigrants. Why?

Lil' Fancy Kpants (The K is Silent) (ex machina), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 18:10 (twenty years ago) link

<em>the point was, saying "i haven't encountered an asian woman whom i've found attractive" isn't necessarily racist. but to say "i find asian women unattractive" is. </em>

no.. those two examples are equivalents. it would be racist to say "all asian women are unattractive"

don, Tuesday, 13 April 2004 18:29 (twenty years ago) link

I think I could probably date a Quaker.


but you'd just be Friends, hawhaw

Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 21:36 (twenty years ago) link

if ugly people were a race, I'd be Archie Bunker.

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 21:49 (twenty years ago) link

Oops,

Everybody ends up being part of that race eventually.

Michael White (Hereward), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 22:03 (twenty years ago) link

I'm taking my time.

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 22:17 (twenty years ago) link

i get the feeling that the actual points of my posts early would never actually be read, anyway.
-- ken c

Not so!!! I ain't hatin' on you playa!~ It's just a pet peeve, sorry if I overreacted. People throw the racism card around a little too freely, in my opin. We can't help our feelings, although with time and experience, the lucky ones may be able to change them. We can't make ourselves like or love or respect people we don't love, even if it's based on something like ethnicity. It's a shame, but it's not a crime. I think racism is what happens when you act on those feelings to deny people access to things they have an inherent right to, like housing or employment or access to commercial establishments and the like. No one has a right to my love or respect or lust even. It's a shallow person who defines things so categorically, perhaps, I don't find white women attractive, or something like that, sure. But it's not racist. There has to be a distinction between criminal behavior--which I think racism is--and unfortunate narrow-mindedness. That's all I mean. But in the case of someone who says, as you quote, I don't find Asian women attractive, while not necessarily racist, gives one pause to think he might also be racist in behavior. That could well be.

Skottie, Tuesday, 13 April 2004 23:08 (twenty years ago) link

i guess we just have a different definitions of racism.. see to me i see this kind of narrow mindedness as racism, but then when i say racism i don't think of it as necessarily "omg wtf put him in jail" kind of thing.

Especially when it comes to feelings and attraction... i mean - it's naturally such a subjective thing, anyway (like haw haw the way the girls all have the hots for me just because i'm so pretty etc.) - you'd file a lawsuit if someone doesn't give you a job because you're ugly!!

But I digress, of course, noone has the right to anybody's love or feelings - however, when things become so catagorical like someone saying "i don't find <race> attractive", implying that the race is the deciding factor in attractiveness. Well, of course i wouldn't put this person to jail and i can understand how thoughts like this could come about, it's not even necessarily "right" or "wrong" (love is a feeling), but i would certainly classify it as a racist thought.

ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 09:51 (twenty years ago) link

n.b. i think it's just the whole "holy shit oh god fucking hell" that people sometimes associate with racism nowadays that sometimes confuse the issue. most of the time it's omg wtf shit, but sometimes it's only natural.

on a similar vein i'm an utter sexist when it comes to attraction. haha yes, i like the sex bit.

ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 09:59 (twenty years ago) link

Good point. Does that make me a homophobe because I don't want to fuck men?

Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 10:09 (twenty years ago) link

Surely the definition of racism is very simple: it is discrimination which is fully or partly based on race. When we look for a sexual partner, we discriminate for and against people on account of their gender, looks, interests, social position etc. Throw race into the mix and you have an element of racial discrimination, i.e. a degree of racism. Which is to claim that, in general, to you, one race is more attractive than another. But racism is a way too emotive word, so let's just call it racial discrimination, which can be positive (i.e. affirmative action)

I'm still interested that it seems acceptable to say: "I'm attracted to black men." but it's not acceptable to say: "I don't find black men attractive."

not telling, Wednesday, 14 April 2004 10:17 (twenty years ago) link

Markelby, your homophobia point is a red herring. You can discriminate against men sexually without hating homosexuals. Just like you can discriminate against a race sexually without hating people of that race.

not telling, Wednesday, 14 April 2004 10:21 (twenty years ago) link

So what's the point in calling it racism? Is this entire thread to make a pissy little semantic point?

Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 10:36 (twenty years ago) link

dingdingding!

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 10:40 (twenty years ago) link

I'm still interested that it seems acceptable to say: "I'm attracted to black men." but it's not acceptable to say: "I don't find black men attractive."

it's ok to say "i'm attracted to black men" sure, but probably not to say "i'm ONLY attracted to black men".

ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 10:53 (twenty years ago) link

mark you're not a homophobe for that because if you're like me, you'd totally fuck a lesbian right?

ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 10:55 (twenty years ago) link

I'm bored of my own thread, so no doubt it's time to let it gracefully drift down the page and into oblivion. But no, Markelby, I didn't just want to make a pissy semantic point. I was interested in what people thought of the question of race and sexual attraction. I was interested in why some people find certain races more sexually attractive than others, and I was interested in what people's attitude to that was.

Pip pip!

not telling, Wednesday, 14 April 2004 10:56 (twenty years ago) link

haha i just read that last post, well actually a liberal lesbian would be even better.

xpost

ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 10:57 (twenty years ago) link

Ken, what exactly is wrong with saying "I'm only attracted to black men?" Why shouldn't you be? Is it wrong to say "I'm only attracted to men?"

not telling, Wednesday, 14 April 2004 10:59 (twenty years ago) link

see again. this is it. i shouldn't have said "ok" or "not ok".. i lazily used "ok" as a shorthand for "isn't racist", or "not ok" as "is racist".

see my post earlier. it is racist to only be attracted to one race, but it's not something that would get you into jail.

ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 11:03 (twenty years ago) link

There has to be a certain element of discrimination in who we find sexually attractive, otherwise it would be complete chaos. So I have to find a particular person from each race that i find sexually attractive, or I'm being racist, right?

Pinkpanther (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 11:05 (twenty years ago) link

Surely saying "I'm only attracted to black men" is racist on your terms, even if you yourself are white! Fair enough that the thread stimulated an interesting debate, but it's a shame your own input to it was based on critcising people because they weren't playing the same language games as you.

Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 11:12 (twenty years ago) link

That was to not telling, obv, not PP. Oh, and fwiw I think it's very lame to say "I'm bored of my thread". See it through dude.

Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 11:13 (twenty years ago) link

you don't "have to" find anybody of each race attractive, that's the thing. you're attracted to people, most or all of them are of a particular race/type/whatever, that's fine, but why make sweeping generalisations?

ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 11:15 (twenty years ago) link

His face is black because he is a sweep, not because he is trying to make himself more attractive to people who attracted to underage black boys. If that happens, it's just a bonus.

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 12:36 (twenty years ago) link

I still hold to a strict constructionist view of the definition of racism. There has to be action taken or denied based on race and these actions must regarding something to which the person has a right to (like employment) or a right to be free from (like lynching). There's a big difference between this and not finding certain groups attractive. Of course, these things can overlap.

But then consider people like Strom Thurman, an institutional racist who found black people attractive, fucked them, and had kids with them. Then as legislator tried to fuck them again metaphorically. Or J. Edgar Hoover who was a notorious persecutor of gays and then was of course gay himself.

No, I'm sorry, I think there has to be a very tight definition. You have a right to a job but no right to be thought of as attractive.

Skottie, Wednesday, 14 April 2004 12:37 (twenty years ago) link

May I just say that I am repulsed by the blatant discrimination of J0hn Darnie11e's statement at the top of this thread that it's racist when Momus does it but is otherwise OK. I suppose he thinks his off-colour joke is acceptible. Why, if I weren't in this wheelchair I would show him a thing or two.

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 12:48 (twenty years ago) link

But y'are, Blanche. Y'are.

Skottie, Wednesday, 14 April 2004 12:50 (twenty years ago) link


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