How much music theory do you know? How much of it winds up in your songwriting?

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I know a certain amount "in my head" rather than "in my ear". But the nice moments are when you come up with something and get totally bored with how major/minor it is and think, how can I dirty this up a bit? Playing with voicings and leading tones helps.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Saturday, 26 November 2005 21:24 (eighteen years ago) link

xposts - Well, there's what may be an urban legend that Parker didn't write music, at least in the early days, and had to get Diz to write stuff out for him. It's probably an exaggeration, but the point is that many musicians do things because they sound right, not because they are formally correct, but those things then happen to be formally correct anyways.

― Abbadabba Berman (Hurting), Sunday, 27 November 2005 01:50 (eighteen years ago) link

It's easy to imagine someone knowing this stuff really well on his own instrument but not necessarily being able to notate it.

― nabiscothingy, Sunday, 27 November 2005 04:51 (eighteen years ago) link

Anyway, I'm very insecure about my music theory. I took some basic classes in college, I can read, and I've picked up lots of random shit and ear training from hanging out/playing with great jazz musicians for the past six or seven years. However, I play drums, so I can't practice this shit in the normal course of playing my instrument (and I haven't had the discipline to sit down and specifically work on it every day).

Whenever I try to write or figure something out it's a lot of trial and error on the keyboard. My shit's basic, and there's a lot of stuff that I should know but don't.

― Jordan (Jordan), Sunday, 27 November 2005 06:26 (eighteen years ago) link

I studied theory for 2 years in college before switching majors. I can't say for sure how much of it I use consciously vs. subconsciously. I guess it's like learning a foreign langauge. I do use it consciously when arranging, though. And it's useful when dealing with multiple instruments and trying to correct "problem" notes.

― darin (darin), Monday, 28 November 2005 20:05 (eighteen years ago) link

I keep having the dumbest issue with "problem" notes lately. Like, I'll sit down and plot out a harmony bit on guitar, a series of two-note intervals; it'll sound just fine. Then I'll program the same thing on a sequencer, using two different synths. And then suddenly some of the notes are bum -- because even though each of the intervals goes together, they're not properly written for two parts, and it doesn't necessarily make sense for an individual line to go from one note to the next. And this means loads of going back over the sequencer patterns and figuring out where, say, the two lines are playing the notes backward, and need to be swapped, or where the guitar harmony just doesn't work as a split and needs to be reconfigured. It's madness, I tell you -- I'm going to have to start writing everything on a keyboard.

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 28 November 2005 20:55 (eighteen years ago) link

I love theory and study it all the time, but I don't think it's essential to being a good musician. When I'm playing I more tend to notice it than (consciously) implement it. It helps me remember some cool (mistakes?) I did and sometimes gets me through my own dullness -like if I get in rut where everything starts to sound the same, I'll push some theoretical idea I don't understand that well on myself and it'll end up opening my ears a bit.

"There is no theory, you only have to listen."
-Claude Debussy

― steve ketchup, Thursday, 1 December 2005 16:32 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, I think there are a lot of "principles" (rather than "rules") that can help you figure out why something you hear sounds good or bad and how to get out of ruts. Like learning a thing or two about chord voicings and harmonic motion helps you break out of that "same chord shape, different position" or "random chord shape until I find one that sounds good" box.

― Abbadabba Berman (Hurting), Friday, 2 December 2005 17:55 (eighteen years ago) link

one month passes...

I desperately want to learn theory. I have managed, somehow, to play saxophone for nearly 15 years and not pick up a LICK of theory (no music classes whatsoever). I'm trying now to learn, on the piano, just to be conversant/rudimentally able to solo (I've always just winged it).

Any texts you could recommend?

also, Hurting: I think it's a bit easier to undervalue theory once you've already learned it. Like, "you can't break the rules until you know them." Etc.

― gbx (skowly), Wednesday, 4 January 2006 22:56 (eighteen years ago) link

They're more practical than theory-heavy, but Rikki Rooksby's books have served me well... [here]

― Confounded (Confounded), Monday, 9 January 2006 22:42 (eighteen years ago) link

Spelled that wrong: Rikky Rooksby

― Confounded (Confounded), Monday, 9 January 2006 22:43 (eighteen years ago) link

software is good way to drill the stuff into your head as well, this stuff gave me a good edge on memorizing chords, scales etc. That's old software though, someone else probably knows a more modern app.

― Pablo (Pablo A), Monday, 9 January 2006 23:13 (eighteen years ago) link

Ha! I was wondering who was going to be the first to admit to owning a Rikki Rooksby book.

― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 10 January 2006 00:08 (eighteen years ago) link

Um, I have one of those books around here somewhere too. Heheheh.

― martin m. (mushrush), Tuesday, 10 January 2006 02:05 (eighteen years ago) link

Hey, I got no pride issues. Rikky's a fine time!

― Confounded (Confounded), Tuesday, 10 January 2006 18:24 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah, Rikky Rooksby is good. this one is also good:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/063400638X/qid=1136927760/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0254997-0415904?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

― AaronK (AaronK), Tuesday, 10 January 2006 21:16 (eighteen years ago) link

Actually, I've got a few of his books myself, and yeah, he's got a good approach.

― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 10 January 2006 22:42 (eighteen years ago) link

The guitar is actually a great tool for learing music theory, I think, because intervals work in such a systematic way (one fret = half step, 2 = whole, etc.)

I think George Van Eps (jazz guy) has a good book on harmonic motion on the guitar. I don't know what it's called but a teacher used to xerox stuff for me. Helps you break out of that "move the chord shape from here to there" box.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 01:24 (eighteen years ago) link

the guitar hurts my hands.

― Pablo (Pablo A), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 02:20 (eighteen years ago) link

The guitar makes my hands bleed sometimes, but that is fucken ROCK.

― martin m. (mushrush), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 02:29 (eighteen years ago) link

Some of the Amazon reviews seem to think ol' Rikky was pulling his punches in his Riffs book.

― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Friday, 20 January 2006 03:10 (eighteen years ago) link

I think one of the best ways to improve your songwriting is to learn to think in terms of harmony and voice leading instead of "chords." Don't learn "new chords" learn how chords work.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Saturday, 21 January 2006 01:12 (eighteen years ago) link

three months pass...

[spam]

― ***, Thursday, 27 April 2006 20:52 (eighteen years ago) link

spam'd

― pablo (Pablo A), Friday, 28 April 2006 03:48 (eighteen years ago) link

i can't read music. i know scales.

sometimes i download modal scales off the internet just to break my fingers out of old habits...but i'm terrible w/theory.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 28 April 2006 17:08 (eighteen years ago) link

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