Bruce Springsteen - Classic or Dud ?

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we cd start with you giving me a decent recipe fr lemon sole and then maybe go on to talk more about why you & amst think bruce is so great.

cºzen (Cozen), Tuesday, 20 July 2004 17:15 (nineteen years ago) link

darkness has some weak stuff on it ("adam raised a cain" has an interesting topic but is a cheesy song with a bad vocal, "something in the night" is just boring, "streets of fire" is pretty bad) and some incredible stuff.

the river: i'm partial to "the ties that bind," "stolen car," "ramroad," "the price you pay" (not sure why i like this one so much). "wreck on the highway" is a really amazingly clear expression of a very simple and powerful idea, though i'm starting to like it a bit less than before. "hungry heart" i like, but i think i need to listen to it harder. (??)

i love "bobbie jean."

a lot of the now-officially-released-formerly-unreleased stuff is unspeakably bad. maybe 15% of it is good.

amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 20 July 2004 17:34 (nineteen years ago) link

ah, ok. the sole: you need a grill basket for this, and a grill. brush the grill basket with oil and place inside (skin side down) a whole, deboned sole that you have doused with lemon, salt, and pepper. place the basket over the coals and while the fish is cooking make a sauce vierge: chop up several of the most gorgeous ripe tomatoes that you can find and add finely shredded fresh basil, olive oil, pepper, salt, to taste. when the fish flakes with gentle pressure from a fork, it's ready to come off the grill. serve it on a platter with lemon slices and sauce to accompany, and a bottle of sancerre.
now, springsteen...

lauren (laurenp), Tuesday, 20 July 2004 17:36 (nineteen years ago) link

nebraska: nothing i can say that hasn't been said, but my favorites are "atlantic city," "mansion on the hill" (because my mom told me a similar story about her and her dad), "state trooper." "used cars" sort of looks forward to the general dullness of the music on the ghost of tom joad, though the lyric has some nice touches.

that makes (at least) two springsteen songs inspired by badlands, btw.

amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 20 July 2004 17:37 (nineteen years ago) link

the main reason for my bruce love is in the lyrics which, be they of the overwrought impassioned variety (ie thunder road, badlands, born to run, rosalita) or the quieter, simpler desperate sort (ie atlantic city, the river, hungry heart), never strike me as false. i guess it's that damn earnestness thing, but when he says "i want to die with you wendy on the streets tonight in an everlasting kiss" or "there were ghosts in the eyes of all the boys you sent away/they haunt this dusty beach road in the skeleton frames of burned out chevrolets," i not only believe him but i don't think that it's corny. no mean feat. and this emotional lyrical resonance is paired with the simplest of music in most cases, either the big rousing anthem or ghostly quiet lament. i used to see that as a weak point - the sameyness, the way the choruses repeat until they almost spin out - but i don't anymore. he's figured out how to make the music do what it needs to, and stuck to that.

lauren (laurenp), Tuesday, 20 July 2004 17:53 (nineteen years ago) link

i sort of admire the lyrics pre-darkness more than i feel them. the conceits get rather too thick for me at times. i prefer stuff like "state trooper" or "dancing in the dark."

bruce actually has written some amazing lyrics post-1987, but in general he can't seem to get the balance of abstraction and the particular as right as he once had.

and something has gone off about his music, too. critics tend to be glib about this, but i think it's fairly complicated. his gift for melody has withered a bit. i would say his gift for instrumental texture too, but even something like "lucky town" has a nice feel for the basic rock setup.

his "simplicity" definitely has the feel of an *earned* simplicity, a paring down... which is exactly what it is, since his first records had fairly sprawling melodies and arrangements.

amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 20 July 2004 17:59 (nineteen years ago) link

also it is fun to make up make lyrics to "10th avenue freeze-out"

amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 20 July 2004 22:53 (nineteen years ago) link

talk abt 'nebraska', 'the river', 'darkness...' these are the ones I own!

Those are my 3 faves, although on a song-by-song basis both Born in the USA and Tunnel of Love beat Darkness, which (as has been noted) has its dodgy moments. But the stuff that's good on Darkness is good in some really interesting ways. I think he came into his own there, figured out more what worked for him and what didn't. He kept the big anthems, but he also finally figured out the quiet end -- it's the first album that anticipates Nebraska, especially the title track. And even the anthems got more pointed and pared down. Like, "poor man wanna be rich/ rich man wanna be king/ and a king ain't satisfied until he rules everything/ I wanna go out tonight, I wanna find out what I got" -- I mean, that's a great fucking lyric, especially joined to the jumping-out-of-his-skin throb of the song. It combines dawning political consciousness with adolescent will to power, and suggests without even meaning to the roots of fascism. And it locates all that in small-town Midwestern we-gotta-get-out-of-this-place cockiness, just barely covering up for a growing certainty that he ain't going nowhwere. (Which is kind of the theme of the whole album, I think, even more than "Born to Run" -- on Born to Run there still seemed to be some kind of idea that all that mythic shit would add up to something, but "Darkness" kind of put an end to that.)

Also, for all its cheesiness, I love "Candy's Room" just for the pure horny build and release of it. ("Prove It All Night," on the other hand, never really gets going -- he makes it sound way too much like work.)

Then The River...the blue-collar record. It's all working men and docks and factories and families. They date, they fall in love, they get married. They have fun on a Friday night (I admit to being a sucker for "Out in the Street," which is like the best beer-commercial song ever). But things go wrong, times get hard (on account o' the economy), men wander go out for a ride and they never come back. And even if nothing really bad happens, there's always some dead kid on a dark road to remind you where it's all headed. Favorites: "Hungry Heart," of course, because the narrator from the beginning seems aware of the weakness of his excuse (hey babe, I got a hungry heart, what can I say?), but also because there's something not bullshit about "everybody got a hungry heart" and "ain't nobody like to be alone." "Cadillac Ranch," which is basically a rewrite of "Swing Low Sweet Chariot" with James Dean and Junior Johnson in supporting roles -- the most rollicking Grim Reaper song ever (long and dark, shiny and black, pulled up to the house today, and it took my little girl away).
The title track, which is metaphorically overladen but to me makes up for it with the last verse (I just act like I don't remember/ Mary acts like she don't care/ but I rememember us riding in my brother's car, etc.), which just fucking hearts it's so good. Also, the fact that the song's preceded by a brace of exactly the kind of cocky teenage come-ons that got Mary pregnant in the first place ("Crush on You", "You Can Look (but You Better Not Touch)", "I Wanna Marry You") is some kind of brilliant sequencing.

And I love love love "Sherry Darling," which is maybe his funniest song, but still also a little desperate (he can't get this fucking noisy, nosy prospective mother-in-law out of his car or his life). And it has a hook like a shipyard crane.

Nebraska I wouldn't even know where to start talking and I've said enough, so I'll confine myself to "Reason to Believe," which -- like a lot of his stuff -- tends to get misread. The set-up is simple: every verse, something shitty happens, and at the end of every hard-earned day people find some reason to believe. There's nothing hopeful about it (especially not coming at the end of that album). The most he can bring himself to say is that it strikes him kind of funny. Take that as you will.

spittle (spittle), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 03:22 (nineteen years ago) link

which just fucking hearts it's so good

I meant hurts. I think. Whichever.

spittle (spittle), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 03:26 (nineteen years ago) link

I fell in like, not love, with Bruce about the time of Tenth Avenue Freze Out and have kept it up for nearly all the intervening years.

jim wentworth (wench), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 03:42 (nineteen years ago) link

oh yeah, that's the one that goes "talkin bout the talmud! talkin bout the talmud!"

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 04:05 (nineteen years ago) link

"ramrod" is so overdriven it threatens to break down more than a few times, like an old car you're trying to push past 80 (i figure car metaphors are fair game here)--way past pitch control, in any case. it's great.

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 04:08 (nineteen years ago) link

also can we have a moratorium on the word "cheesy" as applied to mr. springsteen, whether to be affirmed or dismissed? something about it really bugs me. maybe because even in spittle's post above, it sort of sits there as a reminder that in many quarters an affection for BS still needs to be defended in some vaguely apologetic way.

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 04:10 (nineteen years ago) link

some fave springsteen lines (though it goes w/o saying that they cannot be appreciated but in context):

"Well now everything dies baby that's a fact/But maybe everything that dies someday comes back"

"I wanna spit in the face of these badlands"

"Sometimes it's like someone took a knife baby edgy and dull and cut a six-inch valley through the middle of my skull"

"Sheriff when the man pulls that switch sir and snaps my poor head back / You make sure my pretty baby is sittin' right there on my lap"

"There's a girl across the bar / I get the message she's sendin' /Mmm she ain't lookin' too married /And me well honey I'm pretending"

"In the wee wee hours your mind gets hazy, radio relay towers lead me to my baby / Radio's jammed up with talk show stations / It's just talk, talk, talk, talk, till you lose your patience"

"The dogs on Main Street howl / 'cause they understand"


everytime he sings "sir" on nebraska

all of "if i should fall behind" (yes, in his abstract homily mode)

"into the fire" also wins an award for its admirable directness

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 04:27 (nineteen years ago) link

But Bruce is cheesy sometimes. It doesn't have to be apologized for, but it doesn't hurt to acknowledge it.

spittle (spittle), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 17:08 (nineteen years ago) link

If y'all will excuse a minor plug here is a review of the Essential collection I wrote for Pitchfork. In it I agreed w/ amateurist re him losing some of his sense of melody along the way.

Mark (MarkR), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 17:12 (nineteen years ago) link

I say dud. As canned Spector "Born to Run" is all right on the radio. Don't mind some of the songs on "Tunnel of Love," wish he'd just use keyboards exclusively. But I'm no fan of America's heartland or its prophets in any way--its overstatement just leaves me cold, and that ridiculous sincerity. Give me Mitch Ryder or John Cougar or Iggy as industrial-decay poets or whatever that is supposed to be. Pere Ubu did it well too. Springsteen has none of the elasticity or stickiness I like in rock and roll. I always thought Meltzer was dead-on when he compared the Boss to Fonzie, and to Broadway show tunes. And dead-on when he maintained that Bruce conflated the '50s and '60s in a totally dishonest and disgusting way.

eddie hurt (ddduncan), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 17:18 (nineteen years ago) link

Ah, a voice of sanity! As I semi-muttered elsewhere, Meat Loaf is Springsteen as Broadway show tunes self-consciously instead of unintentionally, thus Mr. Loaf´s brilliance.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 17:33 (nineteen years ago) link

ned quit hatin' on vacation!

- "southside johnny"

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 17:47 (nineteen years ago) link

What do you mean? I LOVE vacation!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 17:48 (nineteen years ago) link

he maintained that Bruce conflated the '50s and '60s in a totally dishonest and disgusting way.

how so?

Meat Loaf is Springsteen as Broadway show tunes self-consciously instead of unintentionally

been out in that south american sunshine a bit too long today, ned?

lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 18:06 (nineteen years ago) link

ned i don't actually think you're engaging with springsteen, as opposed to the popular image of springsteen. i know you will say you've listened to such and such an album "x" many times, but i still think you are not engaging his body of work.

But I'm no fan of America's heartland or its prophets in any way

i don't know what this means. it has little or nothing to do with springsteen's body of work.

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 18:20 (nineteen years ago) link

i mean you can reify this idea of the "heartland" and its pitfalls all you want, but springsteen's body of work is essentially something else, and you won't be engaging with it. but i repeat myself. ad infinitum.

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 18:22 (nineteen years ago) link

i guess to be fair

ned:springsteen::me:smashing pumpkins

(except i'm right)

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 18:35 (nineteen years ago) link

"Now I work down at the car wash/ Where all it ever does is rain..."

that hits on exactly what i don't like about springsteen in the '90s and beyond. yeah, that particular song was 1984, but he'd been planting the seeds of the problem for a while. the problem being his really awful use of overused, overworked, high-school literary cliches, which reached a sad peak on "human touch" and "lucky town." rain. birds. rivers. over and over and over. blah blah blah. he telegraphs his intended meaning in such a ham-handed way that if he were a basketball player, every pass he ever threw would be stolen.

fact checking cuz (fcc), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 18:41 (nineteen years ago) link

But that line's a gag! Maybe not a good one or something, but I think it's supposed to be funny...

spittle (spittle), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 18:48 (nineteen years ago) link

I'm not sure I can exactly define it as a classic, or even a quality record, but The Rising hasn't really been off my playlist since it came out. Anyone?

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 18:48 (nineteen years ago) link

But that line's a gag!

hmm, can't say i've ever heard any humor in his delivery. but in either case, it's the later stuff that bugs me a lot more.

fact checking cuz (fcc), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 18:51 (nineteen years ago) link

i mean, i hear LOTS of humor in other springsteen songs, just not that particular one.

fact checking cuz (fcc), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 18:52 (nineteen years ago) link

Fair enough. I do think he gets tagged with more po-facedness than he deserves. But I also think his own image-building contributed to that, so I guess he can't cry foul too much about it.

spittle (spittle), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 19:02 (nineteen years ago) link

Erm, The Rising...maybe I should give it another chance. At the time, it struck me as trying way too hard (which can be one of his major faults). The intentions were good and heartfelt and all, but I'm not sure you can will into being the kind of record he was trying to make.

spittle (spittle), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 19:04 (nineteen years ago) link

(on the other hand, I think "Streets of Philadelphia" somehow worked...maybe if he'd just had to do one song about Sept. 11 instead of a whole album...)

spittle (spittle), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 19:06 (nineteen years ago) link

i thought the rising was half good, half awful.

but what i liked about the good half, including the title song, was that it DIDN'T come off like he was trying to will it into being. it sounded like an immediate, gut response to a moment, for better or worse. as opposed to something like ghost of tom joad, which sounds like he spent weeks and months trying to will a classic folk record into being, and the results are nearly unlistenable.

fact checking cuz (fcc), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 19:10 (nineteen years ago) link

i'm not sure about that word "unlistenable," although it might apply in this narrow sense: the record hardly sticks in the mind, for the lack of forceful or interesting music. all the lyrics go by in a haze for that.

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 19:22 (nineteen years ago) link

i think it's a worse record than either human touch and lucky town, actually.

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 19:23 (nineteen years ago) link

I think I like the same number of songs on The Rising and Tom Joad, about 2 or 3 each. (Human Touch and Lucky Town too, for that matter.)

spittle (spittle), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 19:25 (nineteen years ago) link

his recent reliance on cliched poetic imagery definitely has its downside, because the cliches tend to remove his songs from the realm of the identifiable and approachable, without replacing it with a fresh sense of wordplay. that said, i think he's perhaps done more with those cliches than most people are willing to admit at this point. this is especially true of the better parts of the rising (i'm the first to admit that the album as a whole is extremely spotty).

"if i should fall behind" is a good example of a song that remains, for the most part, in the realm of metaphor, but works very well.

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 19:30 (nineteen years ago) link

i.e. that village voice review that pilloried the rising's (ab)use of poetic cliches had it half right--i think if the reviewer had listened harder they would have found that those cliches served interesting/powerful ideas some of the time.

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 19:31 (nineteen years ago) link

i'm not sure about that word "unlistenable"

i mean that in the sense of tuneless, humorless and lifeless. it's been a long time since i tried listening to it, but when i did, my memory is that i couldn't -- didn't want to -- finish a single song.

fact checking cuz (fcc), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 19:31 (nineteen years ago) link

yes, and his vocals seem strangely mannered on that one too, proving that he really isn't a "new dylan" at all but someone who really has their own metier that they should stick with.

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 19:33 (nineteen years ago) link

i think the seeds of his (relative) (temporary?) decline were first evident with "spare parts" and "cautious man" on tunnel of love, two songs which render that album something less than perfect, and two songs which critics never seem to acknowledge as existing at all.

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 19:35 (nineteen years ago) link

There's a handful of certifiably good songs on it, surely: the title track, Lonesome Day, You're Missing, Nothing Man, City of Ruins.

On the other hand, the case against: Ian Duncan Smith voted "City of Ruins" his favourite song on Desert Island Discs.

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 19:36 (nineteen years ago) link

who is ian duncan smith?

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 19:38 (nineteen years ago) link

Recently deposed UK Conservative Party leader.

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 19:41 (nineteen years ago) link

oh yeah someone mentioned "streets of philadelphia." for some reason i really didn't like this when it came out, but i know i find it very moving. certainly more profound in its empathy than the film it came from.

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 19:43 (nineteen years ago) link

...it references the kiss that the film didn't dare show.

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 19:43 (nineteen years ago) link

yeah, and unselfconsciously too. some nice lyrical imagery without going overboard, and that na-na-na-na under the chorus is catchier than it seems like at first.

spittle (spittle), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 19:46 (nineteen years ago) link

Ah, a voice of sanity! As I semi-muttered elsewhere, Meat Loaf is Springsteen as Broadway show tunes self-consciously instead of unintentionally, thus Mr. Loaf´s brilliance.

Why do you prefer self-concious show tunes to unintenional ones?

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 19:52 (nineteen years ago) link

("self concious show tunes" sounds like the worst genre EVAH, actually)

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 19:54 (nineteen years ago) link

Aren't all show tunes self-conscious?

spittle (spittle), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 20:04 (nineteen years ago) link


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