Batman Begins: The Thread

(is that Gorilla Grod!?!)

-- walter kranz (kranz_walte...), August 5th, 2005.

CRYBABY

-- DV (dirtyvica...), August 5th, 2005.

Me too, actually.

-- The Ghost of Dan Perry (djperr...), August 5th, 2005.

otm

Also, I think the reason there's been this whole discussion because the film is so unclear about it's aims. I'd say it's more easy to analyze, say, Dark Knight Returns, because Miller's more clear about his view on things. But because Batman Begins wants to both a serious flick portraying a tormented soul searching for revenge, and a blockbuster movie setting up a new Batman franchise, where the main character battles evil ninjas and saves the day, were bound to have conflicting intepretations about the film. Is it a tragedy, or does Batman end up triumphant? Is he a hero or an antihero? I don't think we'll ever reach a consensus.

Genesis of the Bat: Batman incarnations from the mid-1980s to the present
The Journey Begins: creative concepts, story development and casting
Shaping Mind and Body: fighting style
Gotham City Rises: production design
Cape and Cowl: the new batsuit
The Tumbler: the new Batmobile
Path to Discovery: filming in Iceland
Saving Gotham City: the monorail chase sequence
Confidential files
Character/weaponry gallery
Photo gallery
Theatrical trailer
DVD-ROM features: Batman Begins mobile game demo & Web links
Inner Demons comic: Explore the special features through an exclusive interactive comic book
Exclusive collectible 72-page comic book containing: Detective Comics #37 (the very first Batman story), Batman: The Man Who Falls (a classic story that inspired Batman Begins), Batman: The Long Halloween (a chilling excerpt that also inspired the film)

No commentary track listed, interestingly enough.

Hmm, I guess they're being rather explicit where this Batman is coming from... Then again, that was never a secret, was it?

No kidding. It's like they're deliberately thumbing their noses at the '60s Batman brigade. Will the DVD-ROM bonuses also feature a link to this thread, thereby allowing some of the less perspicacious Batman fanboys to pat themselves on the back for loving Batman Begins without having to spend too much effort?

They're also thumbing their noses at the quintessential Batman/Ra's Al Ghul stories where they fight each other SHIRTLESS in the desert.

Box Office Mojo: Is Batman a hero?

Christopher Nolan: Hero has become such a bandied about word, used so broadly, and it ceases to have any meaning. Is Batman a hero? Certainly, he's more a hero than superhero [but] I think the word "hero" is very problematic. He has no superpowers, but he's a heroic figure. The reason to me he's heroic is because he's altruistic. He's trying to help other people with no benefit to himself and, whatever motivates him—and this was the tricky thing to really try and nail with Batman Begins as opposed to previous incarnations—is the difference between him and a common vigilante, the Punisher or Charles Bronson in Death Wish. To me, the difference is he is not seeking personal vengeance. We did not want his quest to be for vengeance, we wanted it to be for justice. That's what sends him looking for an outlet for his rage and frustration. What he chooses to do with it is, I believe, selfless, and therefore, heroic. And that, to me, is really the distinction—selfishness versus selflessness—and that is very noble. But it is a very fine distinction. I do think he is a heroic figure.

BOM: But he does gain a value—justice is a value, even to Batman. Is he really selfless—or does he want to have a life to call his own?

Nolan: To me, he's not selfish in terms of how the word is generally understood—he's not obtaining personal gratification in an immediate sense. He's having to obliterate his own immediate [short-term] self-interest. I could tap into the reality of the story if I felt that he saw his mission as an achievable goal.

BOM: So his is a higher, more rational form of selfishness, as against irrational, short-range immediate gratification?

Nolan: Yes.

BOM: What is the movie's theme in essential terms?

Nolan: The struggle and the conflict between the desire for personal gratification or vengeance and the greater good for a constructive, positive sort—something more universal. Because Batman is limited by being an ordinary man, there's a constant tension between pragmatism and idealism.

So, in the end Batman is a "heroic figure"? Nolan's views seem to be more simplistic than what people read into the film.

I'll add Michael Caine to Alex's list of wortwhile characters.

Cilian Murphy was great. Dude looked like one of the Thunderbirds.

Katie Holmes didn't do much.

Katie Holmes was the only actor who seemed to belong at the level of the movie. Everyone else was too good. And Cillian Murphy was just ... sillian.

Making comic-book heroes into 'psychologically understandable' case studies: a dull waste of time. I read my share of Batman when I was ten and never gave a damn about his origins.

(no I didn't read the preceding 1100 posts)

Gary Oldman giving a technically perfect perf in a functionary role in an FX spectacle is what I'd call "over-casting" -- it's like watching him doing Inspector Hound in a school play, only for big bucks. I hope he at least makes another film like "Nil by Mouth' with the haul...

And creating a photorealistic Gotham out of millions of photos? SAD SAD SAD. (those DVD supps can be very illuminating about twisted priorities)

That said,

1. The batmobile shouldn't look like a brisquet
2. I beg Christian Bale to use his normal voice when wearing the suit. The "Batman" voice is ass.
3. Katie Holmes will not be missed.
4. While the stuff I slept through was better than the ones I caught (seriously, how did I nod off EXCEPT for the most mediocre scenes), the script is still overbaked by half. Especially when the mob boss ("you've never tasted desperate!" quoth the raven) or Liam Neeson are around.

Michael Caine, Gary Oldman, Morgan Freeman and Cillian Murphy were great, though. The childhood scenes were strong too. If they bother to work the kinks out I think the same cast & crew could make a really solid sequel.

Unleashed was definitely better though.

Comic book-based films I'd rather see than yet another Batman abortion:
"Silver Surfer", "Ghost Rider", "the Inhumans", "the Avengers", "the Green Lantern Corps", "DR. STRANGE!"

I do think Michael Caine as Alfred is an inspired choice, though, I'll give them that.

-- Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:33 (2 years ago)

I am now curious as to what Alex thought of the first two of those compared to Batman Begins.

they made a Silver Surfer movie WITHOUT GALACTUS

wtf

I was talking to a girl who had seen that movie, and I asked her if Galactus was cool in it, and she said yeah and that he's a big cloud or something?

glacts and ss should have their own damn movie series

FTFF

Batman Begins, 0:31:38

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Sheffield United's home shirt, 1991-1993

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