HEALTHCARE THREAD

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in the tent, pissing in

cialis morissette (goole), Tuesday, 27 October 2009 19:29 (fourteen years ago) link

all this guy does is piss

Jesus, the Czar of Czars (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 27 October 2009 19:31 (fourteen years ago) link

Who is going to bring the hammer down on Lieberman? Does anyone have a hammer ready to hand?

I would feel confident if I dated her because I am older than (Laurel), Tuesday, 27 October 2009 19:31 (fourteen years ago) link

would gladly hammer his smarmy face in

Jesus, the Czar of Czars (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 27 October 2009 19:31 (fourteen years ago) link

Need this dude:

http://www.bangitout.com/uploads/18hebrew_hammer.jpg

a wicked 60s beat poop combo (Pancakes Hackman), Tuesday, 27 October 2009 22:47 (fourteen years ago) link

Huffpost header: JOE THE BUMMER

fake plastic butts (suzy), Tuesday, 27 October 2009 22:50 (fourteen years ago) link

that's a really unimpressive big city hip-hop skyline image. straight outta milton keynes.

peter falk's panther burns (schlump), Wednesday, 28 October 2009 00:28 (fourteen years ago) link

let the ratfucking begin

Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 28 October 2009 00:37 (fourteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...

someone give me ammunition to debunk this:

http://scottgrannis.blogspot.com/2009/11/fatal-flaw-in-healthcare-reform.html

On one level I agree that yes, this is a possibility, however, it seems to assume people will act only in their financial self-interest in all cases, which is something that I disagree with; gaming the system in this way, counting on the existence of alternative options, seems like a gamble MOST people are not going to take.

akm, Wednesday, 11 November 2009 23:13 (fourteen years ago) link

It all depends on whether the fines go into some kind of insurance pool. If they do, people will be paying into the larger healthcare insurance pool regardless of whether they're insured or not, perhaps not as much but a significant amount nonetheless and this will likely shore up the system for when they need to be insured later.

l'homme moderne: il forniquait et lisait des journaux (Michael White), Wednesday, 11 November 2009 23:22 (fourteen years ago) link

One of the advantages of health insurance is discounted rates for preventative coverage and well-care, not just coverage for catastrophic events. Most people with children are not going to wait to buy insurance until they "come down with something" or needs elective or schedulable surgery if there's an affordable plan to cover well-care and accidents. He's missing a few major points in his argument.

Jaq, Wednesday, 11 November 2009 23:22 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah that was my thought as well; I mean, I wouldn't, and I have a kid. and I don't think I'm the most cautious person in the world. but maybe the rest of the country are just reckless, careless, caution-free people who love to live by the seat of their pants where their health is concerned.

akm, Wednesday, 11 November 2009 23:25 (fourteen years ago) link

And as Mark Perry notes, "What would make this choice to drop insurance and pay the penalty even more rational is the convenient, low-cost availability of basic health care from 1,200 retail clinics around the country, or through pre-paid plans like the No Insurance Club, or concierge medicine."

^^ i dont know about the math since im not super familiar w/ the bill or insurance costs but retail clinics are closing down all over the country and it would take a pretty crazy family with a lot of free time to voluntarily take their kids to a free clinic on the regular

max, Wednesday, 11 November 2009 23:26 (fourteen years ago) link

anyway i don't see how this is different from car insurance and everyone fucking buys that and doesn't complain.

akm, Wednesday, 11 November 2009 23:26 (fourteen years ago) link

Dispiriting.

Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 11 November 2009 23:27 (fourteen years ago) link

well currently the fine for not having health insurance is $0.

so it's an even better bet to not be insured at this present moment!

citizens should be ecstatic!

Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 11 November 2009 23:29 (fourteen years ago) link

also, how the fuck is a 25% chance of having a $10,000+ health insurance bill a "good bet"

are these people from mars? europa? i shall attempt no landings there.

Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 11 November 2009 23:30 (fourteen years ago) link

the dude from that blog is an economist, so of course he has no understand of how the real world works or how people actually make decisions that affect their lives and well-being

max, Wednesday, 11 November 2009 23:33 (fourteen years ago) link

max OTM

squarefair (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 11 November 2009 23:34 (fourteen years ago) link

why anyone listens to economists about anything is beyond me

squarefair (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 11 November 2009 23:34 (fourteen years ago) link

C'mon, that's just a wee bit bit facile.

l'homme moderne: il forniquait et lisait des journaux (Michael White), Wednesday, 11 November 2009 23:47 (fourteen years ago) link

one in four families gets hit by a piano

lots of jerks (gbx), Thursday, 12 November 2009 04:11 (fourteen years ago) link

So on another health-care thread, I asked why some projections show that premiums under the public-option will be higher than premiums for private-plans. A colleague of mine gave me an explanation today. It's all about the size of the public-option and enhanced competition. Under some proposed public-option plans -- e.g., make everyone immediately eligible for Medicare -- the public option would be so large that it would have bargaining power and leverage over, say, hospitals. The gov't would say to hospitals, "These are the rates: Take it or leave it, and if you leave it, you leave all forms of Medicare reimbursement." No hospital would dare do that.

But the public-option in the House bill only insures those who haven't been able to secure private insurance for the previous six months. Thus, the pool of applicants will be (a) sicker and (b) smaller than optimal. That public-option no longer has strong leverage over providers, and it will be small enough where it must compete in the marketplace (and therefore will have the same overhead as private insurers).

I'm hoping this is only horribly oversimplified, rather than horribly wrong. If someone knows, I'd greatly appreciate their input.

Daniel, Esq., Thursday, 12 November 2009 22:30 (fourteen years ago) link

it won't have the same overhead if only for the fact that it won't have to hire an army of people to find ways of denying coverage to people.

presumably it would also not need to spend as much on thousand dollar lunches to woo potential business partners, etc.

i am just speculating though.

Tracer Hand, Thursday, 12 November 2009 22:55 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah the idea that a public option will have the same overhead as a private option is ludicrous

hoth as fuck (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 12 November 2009 22:58 (fourteen years ago) link

i guess everyone expects it to be filled w/ ppl uninsurable in any other way ie pricey patients. if it's not tied to medicare's negotiated rates, then, yeah, premiums will go up. beats not having any care i guess.

goole, Thursday, 12 November 2009 23:00 (fourteen years ago) link

"will go up" should be "will be high to begin with"

i've kinda come around to the idea that the public option is not that important in the scheme of things. it's one way to bring down costs but not the only way. plenty of countries have better HC systems that we do w/o a government run insurance company. if you regulate the bejeezus out of all of them, it starts to make less difference.

goole, Thursday, 12 November 2009 23:02 (fourteen years ago) link

goole i believe most countries without government plans have essentially made it illegal to profit from health insurance, i.e. switzerland

Tracer Hand, Thursday, 12 November 2009 23:06 (fourteen years ago) link

or the netherlands; i don't know if their insurance co's are non-profit by fiat tho

goole, Thursday, 12 November 2009 23:07 (fourteen years ago) link

in the u.s.a. though i believe the constitution guarantees the right to profits for all incorporated organizations

Tracer Hand, Thursday, 12 November 2009 23:13 (fourteen years ago) link

Whores, all of them:

In House, Many Spoke With One Voice: Lobbyists’

“One of the reasons I have long supported the U.S. biotechnology industry is that it is a homegrown success story that has been an engine of job creation in this country.” This written statement by Rep. Joe Wilson of South Carolina on the health care bill was identical to one by Representative Blaine Luetkemeyer and used language suggested by lobbyists.

By ROBERT PEAR
Published: November 14, 2009
WASHINGTON — In the official record of the historic House debate on overhauling health care, the speeches of many lawmakers echo with similarities. Often, that was no accident.

Statements by more than a dozen lawmakers were ghostwritten, in whole or in part, by Washington lobbyists working for Genentech, one of the world’s largest biotechnology companies.

E-mail messages obtained by The New York Times show that the lobbyists drafted one statement for Democrats and another for Republicans.

The lobbyists, employed by Genentech and by two Washington law firms, were remarkably successful in getting the statements printed in the Congressional Record under the names of different members of Congress.

Genentech, a subsidiary of the Swiss drug giant Roche, estimates that 42 House members picked up some of its talking points — 22 Republicans and 20 Democrats, an unusual bipartisan coup for lobbyists.

In an interview, Representative Bill Pascrell Jr., Democrat of New Jersey, said: “I regret that the language was the same. I did not know it was.” He said he got his statement from his staff and “did not know where they got the information from.”

Members of Congress submit statements for publication in the Congressional Record all the time, often with a decorous request to “revise and extend my remarks.” It is unusual for so many revisions and extensions to match up word for word. It is even more unusual to find clear evidence that the statements originated with lobbyists.

The e-mail messages and their attached documents indicate that the statements were based on information supplied by Genentech employees to one of its lobbyists, Matthew L. Berzok, a lawyer at Ryan, MacKinnon, Vasapoli & Berzok who is identified as the “author” of the documents. The statements were disseminated by lobbyists at a big law firm, Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal.

In an e-mail message to fellow lobbyists on Nov. 5, two days before the House vote, Todd M. Weiss, senior managing director of Sonnenschein, said, “We are trying to secure as many House R’s and D’s to offer this/these statements for the record as humanly possible.”

He told the lobbyists to “conduct aggressive outreach to your contacts on the Hill to see if their bosses would offer the attached statements (or an edited version) for the record.”

In recent years, Genentech’s political action committee and lobbyists for Roche and Genentech have made campaign contributions to many House members, including some who filed statements in the Congressional Record. And company employees have been among the hosts at fund-raisers for some of those lawmakers. But Evan L. Morris, head of Genentech’s Washington office, said, “There was no connection between the contributions and the statements.”

Mr. Morris said Republicans and Democrats, concerned about the unemployment rate, were receptive to the company’s arguments about the need to keep research jobs in the United States.

The statements were not intended to change the bill, which was not open for much amendment during the debate. They were meant to show bipartisan support for certain provisions, even though the vote on passage generally followed party lines.

Democrats emphasized the bill’s potential to create jobs in health care, health information technology and clinical research on new drugs.

Republicans opposed the bill, but praised a provision that would give the Food and Drug Administration the authority to approve generic versions of expensive biotechnology drugs, along the lines favored by brand-name companies like Genentech.

Lawmakers from both parties said it was important to conduct research on such “biosimilar” products in the United States. Several took a swipe at aggressive Indian competitors.

Asked about the Congressional statements, a lobbyist close to Genentech said: “This happens all the time. There was nothing nefarious about it.”

In separate statements using language suggested by the lobbyists, Representatives Blaine Luetkemeyer of Missouri and Joe Wilson of South Carolina, both Republicans, said: “One of the reasons I have long supported the U.S. biotechnology industry is that it is a homegrown success story that has been an engine of job creation in this country. Unfortunately, many of the largest companies that would seek to enter the biosimilar market have made their money by outsourcing their research to foreign countries like India.”

In remarks on the House floor, Representative Phil Hare, Democrat of Illinois, recalled that his family had faced eviction when his father was sick and could not make payments on their home. He said the House bill would save others from such hardship.

In a written addendum in the Congressional Record, Mr. Hare said the bill would also create high-paying jobs. Timothy Schlittner, a spokesman for Mr. Hare, said: “That part of his statement was drafted for us by Roche pharmaceutical company. It is something he agrees with.”

The boilerplate in the Congressional Record included some conversational touches, as if actually delivered on the House floor.

In the standard Democratic statement, Representative Robert A. Brady of Pennsylvania said: “Let me repeat that for some of my friends on the other side of the aisle. This bill will create high-paying, high-quality jobs in health care delivery, technology and research in the United States.”

Mr. Brady’s chief of staff, Stanley V. White, said he had received the draft statement from a lobbyist for Genentech’s parent company, Roche.

“We were approached by the lobbyist, who asked if we would be willing to enter a statement in the Congressional Record,” Mr. White said. “I asked him for a draft. I tweaked a couple of words. There’s not much reason to reinvent the wheel on a Congressional Record entry.”

Some differences were just a matter of style. Representative Yvette D. Clarke, Democrat of New York, said, “I see this bill as an exciting opportunity to create the kind of jobs we so desperately need in this country, while at the same time improving the lives of all Americans.”

Representative Donald M. Payne, Democrat of New Jersey, used the same words, but said the bill would improve the lives of “ALL Americans.”

Mr. Payne and Mr. Brady said the bill would “create new opportunities and markets for our brightest technology minds.” Mr. Pascrell said the bill would “create new opportunities and markets for our brightest minds in technology.”

In nearly identical words, three Republicans — Representatives K. Michael Conaway of Texas, Lynn Jenkins of Kansas and Lee Terry of Nebraska — said they had criticized many provisions of the bill, and “rightfully so.”

But, each said, “I do believe the sections relating to the creation of a market for biosimilar products is one area of the bill that strikes the appropriate balance in providing lower cost options.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/us/politics/15health.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

Adam Bruneau, Sunday, 15 November 2009 15:06 (fourteen years ago) link

“One of the reasons I have long supported Mrs.Aminata Ali from Cote D`ivoire (Ivory Coast) is that she is a widow being that she lost her husband some year's ago that had a foreign account here in Cote D'Ivoire(Ivory Coast) up to the tune of $5m which he told the bank was for the importation of cocoa processing machine.However,due to her bad health situation occassioned by cancer, she wish me to do me a favour to receive this fund to a safe account in our country or any safer place as the beneficiary so that I will invest it in a good business venture for the benefit and education of her son,Mustafa, who will be coming to stay under our kind custody after the transfer for his education and future because my health is failing me.” This written statement by Rep. Joe Wilson of South Carolina on the health care bill was identical to one by Representative Blaine Luetkemeyer and used language suggested by lobbyists.

it's a harb knock life for us (Curt1s Stephens), Sunday, 15 November 2009 15:22 (fourteen years ago) link

The Dems have run on an openly 'pro-reform' attitude to health care. They won - both the presidency and the rest. They don't need to monitor polls - they have a straightforward and obvious mandate for change. Elections are elections -the Right failed to convince the people to oppose health care reform. And that's that. Push it through, you have the mandate.

grobravara hollaglob (dowd), Sunday, 15 November 2009 23:12 (fourteen years ago) link

hmmmm i wonder why the lines look like this

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/hjxlx9mrte-_aurevouwlq.gif

max, Sunday, 15 November 2009 23:35 (fourteen years ago) link

I'm shocked the GOP number is that high -- in 2001 or 2009.

Daniel, Esq., Sunday, 15 November 2009 23:36 (fourteen years ago) link

CBO says Reid bill is under the budget ceiling and will reduce the deficit, debate to start within the next couple days...

Jack Kirby's Orangutan Surfing Civilization (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 22:36 (fourteen years ago) link

How is Reid's plan different from the House plan, in terms of (a) the public option, (b) regulation of the insurance industry (e.g., prohibitions of denying coverage for pre-existing conditions)?

Daniel, Esq., Wednesday, 18 November 2009 22:50 (fourteen years ago) link

public plan allows for the states to opt out (a proposition I find totally lolsome), denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions is outlawed

Jack Kirby's Orangutan Surfing Civilization (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 23:11 (fourteen years ago) link

"goole i believe most countries without government plans have essentially made it illegal to profit from health insurance, i.e. switzerland"

Very very wrong.

Three Word Username, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 23:32 (fourteen years ago) link

Elitist.

Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 19 November 2009 14:32 (fourteen years ago) link

handy comparison between the bills, by topic (listed down the left-hand side). caveats and obvious problems stipulated, but i'm sort of pleasantly surprised by how strong both of them are overall. of course reid has to get his onto the floor, so i hope there's sufficient muscle on his side to bring bayh, lieberman, nelson, etc. to heel.

hellzapoppa (tipsy mothra), Thursday, 19 November 2009 15:30 (fourteen years ago) link

i'm sort of pleasantly surprised by how strong both of them are overall

Never waste a(n) (economic) crisis.

Daniel, Esq., Thursday, 19 November 2009 16:38 (fourteen years ago) link

Nothing about the progress of the bills so far has made me change my mind about wishing men should by rights recuse themselves from limiting women's reproductive health choices.

viagra falls (suzy), Thursday, 19 November 2009 16:43 (fourteen years ago) link

^^^ i would tend to agree with that

itdn put butt in the display name (gbx), Thursday, 19 November 2009 16:44 (fourteen years ago) link

Three Word Username - elaborate please!! i think most of us here wd like to be edjimicated on these things

Tracer Hand, Thursday, 19 November 2009 16:45 (fourteen years ago) link

i am v uneducated, but i think in countries that still retain private insurance companies (france, eg) those companies are still allowed, legally, to be for-profit

itdn put butt in the display name (gbx), Thursday, 19 November 2009 16:46 (fourteen years ago) link


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