Taking Sides: Liverpool vs Everton

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If Liverpool are at their best they can win it, but who knows how good they'll be on the day? Anyone's guess. I hope Everton win, I hope Houllier goes - they are so dull to watch!

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 14 April 2003 16:44 (11 years ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...
dr c dodged my ranieri question!

what are you thinking re: chelsea now dr.c?

gareth (gareth), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 11:44 (10 years ago) Permalink

I woz wrong - CR is a good manager. We fight, we play good football and we win, so overall I'm happy.

At the moment I am extremely worried that we will end up fifth - the Villa loss was a dreadful result. I think West Ham might be a tough game as they need the points and they've beaten us once already this season. For next season we need a stronger/larger squad, espec. for Europe - we've been quite lucky with injuries this year, but may not get away with it again. Big problem - no money Priorities - a) a ballwinner to replace Petit and release Lampard b) an international striker - JimmyFloyd's era may be up, Zola needs handling carefully at 37 and Cole is not yet ready. I'd love to get Beattie, but they can't afford him. c) an attacking/wide or central midfielder to give more cover there. I think DeLucas will come good eventually, but Gronkjaer wavers and Stanic is dreadful.

Dr. C (Dr. C), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 12:11 (10 years ago) Permalink

Oh, well, someone had to revive this. After Easter weekend I didn't have the heart.

Everton really running out of steam now - bringing Big Dunc on for the last half hour and pitching balls up for him smacks of the bad old days (but nice when they rebound to Wayne's left foot). Very little going on in midfield, a true creative drought in the derby and simply outpassed by Chelsea (again). Radzinski can't come back quickly enough.

Liverpool now finishing as strongly as they did in 2000-01 (didn't they win 6-0 at Ipswich in the closing stages of that season?); we need a Fowler special at the Anfield Road end next Saturday.

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 12:49 (10 years ago) Permalink

what do the liverpool fans think of baros now?

gareth (gareth), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 12:52 (10 years ago) Permalink

still think he's ok, he doesn't get a long enough run to be truly sure. You can't judge him on last weekend's performance, I reckon I'd have got a couple against the baggies the way they were playing.

chris (chris), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 12:59 (10 years ago) Permalink

I think Wayne Rooney could decide the title.

Many people have been talking as though United will win all their remaining games. If they had Sunderland after Charlton I'd agree. But Everton, at Goodison, on the final day? I can't see United winning that. In which case, if Arsenal beat Leeds, Soton and Sunderland, the title is likely theirs - possibly on goal difference. No?

(If Arsenal *don't* win the title, Rooney will have played his part by inflicting their first defeat.)

the pinefox, Friday, 2 May 2003 10:44 (10 years ago) Permalink

I'd be surprised if United don't beat Everton, extremely surprised, the way they're playing now.

I think Liverpool should be able to overcome their hoodoo with Chelsea, Baros still missed loads of chances against West Brom.

Though none were as bad as Lampard's glorious miss against Fulham.

Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 2 May 2003 11:04 (10 years ago) Permalink

I agree about Liverpool vs Chelsea. I think Man U will draw at Goodison. Nil-nil.

Nordicskillz (Nordicskillz), Friday, 2 May 2003 11:07 (10 years ago) Permalink

i think 'pool will sneak a champions' league spot, too. as for man u, i'd put my money on them to beat charlton and everton, but i'm not as certain of it as some seem to be. i wouldn't be surprised if rooney foiled us, either. maybe arsenal will slip up before the everton game (i don't think there's even a slight possibility of them dropping anything to sunderland on the last day). i'll go with man u to win the title, but i'm only about 55% sure.

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Friday, 2 May 2003 11:15 (10 years ago) Permalink

I think the likeliest scenario is still the one in which United win the title this coming Sunday afternoon, *but* if it does go the distance then I think it's Arsenal's on GD.

Man Utd's Goodison victories have become depressingly routine in recent years - I think the opening day of 99-00 with Jaap Stam's hilarious own goal was the only time in the last seven or eight seasons we've got anything off them. However, we matched them for 86 minutes at Old Trafford and I refuse to contemplate a season like this one ending with the anticlimax of a home defeat to anyone...
so 1-1.

I think Liverpool will lose out on a Champions' League place on the ol' GD an' all. (Ideal scenario: they lose to both Man City and Chelsea, Everton pick up six points and the Blue Dream is realised).

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Friday, 2 May 2003 13:12 (10 years ago) Permalink

Mike, I liked your use of "Ferguson" and "smack" in the same sentence. I'm only sad you forgot to include "cunt".

I was at a meeting this morning pitching to run Liverpool and Arsenal's online chatroom/community services. That'd be quite fun, I think. Apparently a previous tech employee was fired, but left himself a back door in, and then informed all the LFC users that the moderating team were all from Manchester. With sexy results!

Mark C (Mark C), Friday, 2 May 2003 13:29 (10 years ago) Permalink

'Fun'?

He didn't use 'Ferguson'.

Language!

the pinefox, Friday, 2 May 2003 13:40 (10 years ago) Permalink

haha, the Pinefox arguing that Arsenal will win the title!

I think one factor on the final day will be if Everton have anything to play for. If they need a result for a place in the UEFA cup, not an implausible scenario from memory (I've not checked tables), Man U will have it a lot tougher than if they have nothing to gain.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Friday, 2 May 2003 17:30 (10 years ago) Permalink

I think one factor on the final day will be if Everton have anything to play for. If they need a result for a place in the UEFA cup, not an implausible scenario from memory (I've not checked tables), Man U will have it a lot tougher than if they have nothing to gain.

I'd like to think a Moyes team would make it tough for anybody regardless of the circumstances but the capitulation at Loftus Road this afternoon suggests we're in meltdown now. Pah, I get my fantasy result at Anfield and we go and score two own-goals. Blackburn breathing down our necks now for that last UEFA Cup spot, so I guess I have to hope for an Arsenal-Leeds draw and Fergie sending out the youth team at Goodison for a kickabout.

Magnitude of today's Man U victory makes the GD situation kinda interesting; United could win the title with a draw at Everton if Arsenal's three victories are only by a single-goal margin; if the Arse manage a 2-0 somewhere along the way the Gunners will win it on goals scored, as they did in (look away, Pinefox) 1989.

West Ham-Chelsea sounded like a blinder on the radio. They're still going down, of course.

All this rather irrelevant compared to events in Swansea and Exeter. What a day to get married.

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Saturday, 3 May 2003 17:46 (10 years ago) Permalink

What happened at Southampton?

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 3 May 2003 18:39 (10 years ago) Permalink

leeds - arsenal tomorrow is going to be a great game - there's a hell of a lot to play for. wouldn't be surprised if leeds sneak a point. chelsea - liverpool should be interesting, if the 'pool hadn't conceded that late goal all they'd need was a point. anelka gets revenge on his old club, y'know.

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Saturday, 3 May 2003 19:34 (10 years ago) Permalink

It could be a fantastic last day. Everton with a UEFA place versus Man U still needing a win for the title, with Blackburn and Arsenal fighting for wins behind them. Chelsea-Liverpool for the last Champions' League place. West Ham, Bolton and Leeds all fighting to avoid the last relegation slot. There could be a hell of a lot still to settle, and few meaningless games.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 3 May 2003 20:57 (10 years ago) Permalink

ok, pool and everton both miss out on their european targets - a sad day on merseyside. moyes' excellence remains undoubted, but do 'pool fans wish to see the back of houllier? i think the worthington cup win (combined with a rather good record up to this season) will save him for now, but do you feel he's unable to take the next step?

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Sunday, 11 May 2003 20:10 (10 years ago) Permalink

he's getting another year anyway it seems, almost impossible to see pool winning the league under him. It's sad actually, I feel sorry for him, especially the manner in which he is criticised sometimes, "old man houllier" or "madman" or whatever, it's a bit sickening sometimes.

There's a part of me that fears next year could be total meltdown.

Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 11 May 2003 20:17 (10 years ago) Permalink

I think he's pretty short on ideas and distrusts the kind of creativity that seems necessary to get right to the top.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 11 May 2003 20:19 (10 years ago) Permalink

i felt a bit sorry for him when the itv pundit started quizzing him about how he felt about anelka scoring two goals against 'pool, after he let him go. he just did this long, weary sigh, and then said something like "Your question is out of line, best decision for the club at the time, yadda yadda yadda." I can't see them making much progress under houllier, but i can't see him going either, cos he had quite a good thing going for a while.

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Sunday, 11 May 2003 20:32 (10 years ago) Permalink

not a total loss, people say its the worthless cup and maybe it is, but it still was a nice day, it's still winning something, i had a big smile on my face, faith reaffirmed afterwards anyway.

Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 11 May 2003 21:05 (10 years ago) Permalink

As the Pinefox said to me this afternoon, it's foolish to rely on Spurs for anything. I haven't seen the van Nistelrooy penalty incident, but it didn't matter in the end so easily did Blackburn coast to victory.

Ultimately no better than 95-96 (a false dawn before Royle found the carpet whipped from beneath him); remains to be seen whether Everton's satisfying and surprising season-long upswing will be a precursor to disintegration a la Sunderland and Ipswich (Champs Lge contenders in 99-00 and 00-01 respectively) or whether we're about to rejoin the Big Boys' Club like Newcastle and Chelsea have.

Thing that worries me the most: lack of goals. 48 in 38 Premiership games is not very good, and the only time we hit three all season was in a 4-3 defeat at Tottenham. Seven times we came from behind to win, six of them at home with three of those earned with injury-time wonder-strikes. I can only think of three league wins that could be described as comfortable (Fulham & Leeds home, Bolton away). It's all a bit precarious.

As for Liverpool, their failure to meet their own targets is some consolation for this Bitter Blue. I suppose now that the pre-Xmas slump is an annual treat for all Anfieldphobes, it'll be panic stations next season if Liverpool aren't clear at the top by the end of October. Failure in the Cups and out of touch with the leaders and Houllier might go next January. There's an awful lot of talent there, it doesn't seem to be being marshalled terribly well. The Reds need a Moyes. Or an Allardyce!

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Sunday, 11 May 2003 21:30 (10 years ago) Permalink

people say its the worthless cup and maybe it is, but it still was a nice day, it's still winning something

Has winning a trophy ever rung so hollow? Or losing one mattered so little?

James Ball (James Ball), Monday, 12 May 2003 08:02 (10 years ago) Permalink

Whatever James, I'm sure you weren't saying that on the day.

Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 12 May 2003 08:36 (10 years ago) Permalink

Considering it was you lot, I was actually quite relaxed about losing. (Would've preferred to win it obviously.)

Unhappy at first, but seeing the Liverpool players celebrate it like they'd just won the treble cheered me up no end.

Considering everything that's happened, saving our worst performance of the second half of the season for that game was a blessing.

James Ball (James Ball), Monday, 12 May 2003 08:54 (10 years ago) Permalink

I'm not sure about Moyes. He has taken a team who had been struggling around the fringes of relegation for some years and turned them into a team who only just failed to reach Europe, but Michael's analysis I think points at a limitation - well organised and not easy to beat, but short on creativity. If Rooney comes through the way we all expect and scores 20+ next season, maybe that solves the problem, but he might have to make a good few of them as well as score them. It's a long time since a team won this league without a real streak of flair (Blackburn in 1995, I guess), and I don't see that changing any time soon. Nonetheless, Everton have gone from poor to good this year, so I shouldn't be grudging about Moyes.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:31 (10 years ago) Permalink

"remains to be seen whether Everton's satisfying and surprising season-long upswing will be a precursor to disintegration a la Sunderland and Ipswich (Champs Lge contenders in 99-00 and 00-01 respectively) or whether we're about to rejoin the Big Boys' Club like Newcastle and Chelsea have"

somewhere in between, i reckon. i think he's done a great job, with limited resources SO FAR. next season will be a test, but expect a healthy tally from roonaldo.

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:39 (10 years ago) Permalink

It's true, Liverpool need a manager who's SECRETLY A DANDY.

the pinefox, Monday, 12 May 2003 12:06 (10 years ago) Permalink

what? the sort of man that would be Dale Winton's best man?

chris (chris), Monday, 12 May 2003 12:10 (10 years ago) Permalink

2 months pass...
David Moyes yesterday: "If Wayne Rooney wants a guaranteed starting position, it won't be at Everton".

Use other words please?

the pinefox, Thursday, 17 July 2003 10:24 (10 years ago) Permalink

CRAP?

Pinkpanther (Pinkpanther), Thursday, 17 July 2003 10:27 (10 years ago) Permalink

In other words, "keep your feet on the ground young man, you may be great but your not bigger than the team"

chris (chris), Thursday, 17 July 2003 10:44 (10 years ago) Permalink

He's not daft, David Moyes.

James Ball (James Ball), Thursday, 17 July 2003 11:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

He's a cold blue eyed killer is what he is. I mean Jesus, with those fucking eyes man, he looks ready to slice open your jugular any second. .

Alex K (Alex K), Thursday, 17 July 2003 11:07 (10 years ago) Permalink

yeah for real as if anyone's gonna storm into moyes's office and demand anything! thank god he never became man utd assistant, him and ferguson would be murder together

Chip Morningstar (bob), Thursday, 17 July 2003 11:26 (10 years ago) Permalink

He is Fergie junior.

James Ball (James Ball), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:09 (10 years ago) Permalink

would love to see moyes vs keane

Chip Morningstar (bob), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:32 (10 years ago) Permalink

Can anybody remember an Own goal scored by John Bailey in the 1980-1981 season in the Merseyside derby at Anfield?

Basically was it scored with his head or foot or other part of his body?

bondy, Wednesday, 30 July 2003 09:32 (10 years ago) Permalink

I remember it only too well. It came off the side of his head - Jimmy Case drove in a near post corner* (I think it was at the Kop end) and Bailey deflected it past (I think) Jim McDonagh. 1-0 with about 15 mins left. I think Imre Varadi had two goals disallowed in that match. Painful stuff, but at least we beat them in the Cup.

(* - a Liverpool-supporting friend of mine, sitting a few rows up in the Kemlyn Rd stand, swore Case's corner swung out of play en route to the six-yard box. We didn't have ProZone or Hawk-eye in those days.)

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 10:45 (10 years ago) Permalink

That question looked unanswerable, but I had a feeling that an answer would be forthcoming.

the pinefox, Wednesday, 30 July 2003 10:55 (10 years ago) Permalink

It sometimes occurs to me that Michael is Everton's very own Funes the Memorious, condemned never to forget a single dubious goal Liverpool have ever scored.

I remember him (I scarcely have the right to use this ghostly verb; only one man on earth deserved the right...

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 20:35 (10 years ago) Permalink

Without effort, he had learned English, French, Portuguese, Latin. I suspect, nevertheless, that he was not very capable of thought. To think is to forget a difference, to generalize, to abstract. In the overly replete world of Funes there were nothing but details, almost contiguous details.

Oh, dear. Can somebody wipe my brain, please?

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 21:13 (10 years ago) Permalink

2 months pass...
3-0 at White Hart Lane, of all places. That's even worse than October (or was it September?) 1986.

I am tempted to say 'Everton should be worried', save that... I don't actually think they should be worried.

Should Liverpool be worried? The Guardian report today says there's a lot of worry around:

Houllier's worries at his players' anxieties

Liverpool 1 - 2 Arsenal

Kevin McCarra at Anfield
Monday October 6, 2003
The Guardian

In the fight for success managers have wretched spells when they feel as if they are trying to thump phantoms. Gérard Houllier is perturbed. Having improved the attacking potential of the Liverpool side, he now finds himself battling on a more mysterious front. The minds of his own players are a greater worry than the abilities of the opposition.

There are no more signings to be made and a dustsheet might as well be thrown over the tactics board. In this defeat by Arsenal it looked as if the side had simply forgotten how to challenge for honours. There was much to admire about Liverpool before the interval but ruthlessness was not among their merits.

Worse still, the team then grew preoccupied with its regrets and let a 1-1 draw shade into a defeat. "The boys got anxious," Houllier admitted. "It was as if they were saying, 'We have done so well, and didn't get the goals we deserve.' It was as if they wanted to keep the result rather than keep going forward."

In such circumstances talent is just a provocation. It annoys supporters to recognise ability that is not made to count. Harry Kewell put Liverpool in front with a rapacious first-time drive after an Edu clearance broke from Michael Owen but his performance is tied to a moodiness that has his impact fluctuating over the course of an afternoon.

Owen himself is usually steadier, yet he malfunctioned before collecting the injury that makes him a doubt for England's match in Istanbul. Given chances to add to the lead, a lob went high after Kewell's flick had sent him through and so too did a header from Steven Gerrard's superb, pacy free-kick.

There was excitement for half an hour. Liverpool are no longer monotonous and the tactic of pairing the elusive Kewell and Owen in attack left Arsenal's powerful centre-backs lacking anyone to grapple with. Houllier's side, though, could not sustain their display and so suffered a second consecutive defeat in the Premiership.

They do not appear remorseless enough to make up lost ground and challenge for the title. It is Arsenal, mystifyingly, who have turned into the kind of hard-bitten line-up whose results can be better than their displays. Only the wonderful winner, when Robert Pires bent a 25-yarder round Jerzy Dudek, revealed the Highbury club's virtuoso traits.

Jérémie Aliadière, in his first start for Arsenal, must have concluded that the Premiership's demands are intimidating but Arsène Wenger almost revelled in his memories of survival in a desperate situation. "We were on the ropes for 25 minutes," the manager said. "We couldn't get out of our half."

Arsenal were level at the interval because Edu's header from a Pires free-kick broke off Sami Hyypia for an own-goal, but Wenger's main thought was that his men needed to push up and choke Liverpool's flow in midfield.

Arsenal, on their Premieship travels, have followed a valuable draw at Manchester United with a win here and Wenger has cause to acclaim the "solidarity" of his squad. All the same the leniency of Houllier's side was still the key to recovery. With Edu a useful deputy for the injured Patrick Vieira, Arsenal eventually started to pass steadily, even if their old élan was lacking.

Although Ashley Cole had to deny Liverpool a late equaliser by blocking El Hadji Diouf's effort on the goal-line, the Highbury team became increasingly composed. Sol Campbell, back in action for the first time since the death of his father 17 days earlier, gradually recovered his focus over the course of the match.

"Sol was a bit in-between on playing; he didn't know if he was ready so I decided just to push him in," Wenger said. "Sol didn't want to let the team down. He was a bit anxious and in the last 20 minutes he looked a bit tired. But you could see that he wanted to dig deep to finish the game well. He needed a lot of mental strength."

The professional concerns of footballers are trifling by comparison with those of a bereaved man but Arsenal are performing with fortitude. It remains to be seen whether the durability will last if there is a battery of suspensions after the fracas at Old Trafford.

Liverpool, however, are currently the more apprehensive club and once again there is talk of Gerrard and Owen seeking transfers if no Champions League place is won. Houllier did not deserve to see such speculation resurface but, although he was blameless on Saturday, it is always the manager's job to suffer.

the pinefox, Monday, 6 October 2003 15:23 (10 years ago) Permalink

Liverpool are currently three [3] points above "crisis club" Leeds United. They may be playing better than Leeds, or not losing as heavily, or something, but this statistic alone might be reason for worry, I think.

Tim (Tim), Monday, 6 October 2003 15:41 (10 years ago) Permalink

In praise of "soccer"
It's time for America to discover the knees, thighs and invention of the men
who play the most erotic game in the world.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

By David Thomson

May 30, 2002 | Let me leave young women aside for a moment. I will come to
them. But what I want to say first is that this is that moment at which the
world comes to a proper celebration of something men were made to do,
something that is intensely physical yet profoundly imaginative, something
made out of muscle, speed, grace and the soul. I am talking about the World
Cup, about soccer, about football.

I know, that name is not quite allowed in this country because it is
supposed to be kept under lock and key for that other game -- not a bad
game, even if it compels men to be too large and replaces the real
adventures of the mind with the huddles, the jargon and the militaristic
submersion of identity in "planning."

So American football is a fine thing. Still, America could do itself good
all over the world by saying, Well, yes, after all, we all know what
football is, football is the game made by Stanley Matthews, Ferenc Puskas,
Pele, Maradona and Zidane, football is the world's passion and festival, one
of the greatest forms of play ever invented (and a turn-on). Therefore,
"our" "football" needs a new name -- let's call it "gridiron" or "attack" or
whatever you like. "Soccer" is such a stupid name. How many of the children
playing all over the U.S. today actually know why it is called "soccer"? How
many readers of this piece know? (For the answer, see below.) Give us back
the real meaning of "football."

And, no matter that the games are likely to appear on our television at
unearthly hours that do a lot to destroy the other rhythms of life -- you
should attend to this great contest. And its rhythm. Football is a game
played on a pitch at least 100 yards by 60, played at extraordinary pace, in
which most of the players are likely to be driven from end to end, back and
forth, while still finding the time to control, touch, deflect and guide a
ball that bounces to the moods of ground, wind and altitude.

Time and again, in football, you will see young men -- at the limits of
their physical capacity -- do astonishingly inventive things with the
rhythm, the direction and the winning of this very simple game. In its
essence, it should be played without lulls or stoppages. Only then can
change of pace and direction prove so decisive. It is trite to say that
football is like dance. Dance, after all, has no equivalent to danger,
contact, collision and courage. And dance is choreographed. The design is
meant to be carried out to perfection, whereas in football the perfection
will always emerge from spontaneity, accident and momentary impulse.

How sexy is football? As sexy as any performance where young men, trained
all their lives in skills and execution, still discover in an instant the
unexpected, the reversal, the purely personal option within a team's plan.
You will hear that some nations -- the Latin teams, say -- are more
naturally adept at this than others. Not so. Some of the greatest of players
have been European, and northern European at that -- consider Cruyff, Law,
Best, Beckenbauer and so many others. Some of the most turgid, paranoid and
overrehearsed football ever played has come from Italian teams. Still, there
is always the passionate example of Brazil, the savage moodiness of
Argentina, the exuberance of African teams and who knows what dark horse
this time?

Football does not take root in the U.S., so they say, and there are all the
old reasons -- not enough goals, not enough opportunities for commercial
breaks, an absence of melodramatic violence, too much stress on the mind.
Well, maybe America can and will live with those crushing definitions of
itself.

Or maybe it will observe something that is American in origin yet still not
figured out in many football-crazy nations: that it is a terrific game for
women. For if we have discovered something feminine in the game, then surely
the world is helped in enjoying the way men move. In that glimpse of
America's insecure maleness, there lies a way in which our culture of might
really moves ahead. But that would depend on more ordinary Americans
discovering the intensely sexual, intellectual allure of the game. Every
four years you get a new chance to abandon helmets, padding and the war
cries of the Marines -- and show us your legs, your knees, your thighs, your
invention.

*The game is called soccer because as it developed in Britain, it acquired a
Football Association (an organizing structure) to distinguish it from rugby.
The "soccer" comes from the "soc" in association. Which is not really a
proper way to name a great game.

the pinefox, Monday, 6 October 2003 16:02 (10 years ago) Permalink

Thanks for posting that Thomson piece, The Pinefox - it's fantastic.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 6 October 2003 17:22 (10 years ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...
Liverpool won't win the Premiership 2003-4. Yet (and I know this feeeling was not universal) I was cheered by their result against Leeds. I don't like to think of the pressure on Houllier if they'd lost that. Perhaps they will be top 4 after all?

the pinefox, Monday, 27 October 2003 14:25 (10 years ago) Permalink

I really feel it is looking grim for Liverpool. If they fail to get a Champions League place this year as looks likely, there will be a really awkward situation where they may be forced to sell Michael Owen, to avoid his leaving on Bosman the year after.

As far as I know the same is true of Steven Gerrard.

Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 27 October 2003 14:48 (10 years ago) Permalink


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