TS: Depeche Mode vs. New Order vs. Pet Shop Boys

and you're right: NO are something of an embarrassment these days (even the arguing is cringeworthy), but i am prepared to overlook that because ... well, they're new order, and they are still arguably gods. just about.

I've tried every now and again over the years, but it hasn't worked out just yet. I'll give it another go at some point. (this is when Fopp would have been handy)

and you're right: NO are something of an embarrassment these days (even the arguing is cringeworthy), but i am prepared to overlook that because ... well, they're new order, and they are still arguably gods. just about

tough decisions call for desperate criteria though. i considered weighing the case for both using their collective remixes, but it was difficult. 80's NO remixes are slightly better than 80's PSB remixes, but both are generally excellent. 90's thru today PSB remixes are far better than the NO ones of the same period, but PSB have released a lot more, etc...

all too difficult to really decide, but I still think PSB edge out NO.

i must admit, i was surprised by my immediate kneejerk NO response, given that i've spent so much of the past four years slagging off all their new stuff ;)

Well, this is an interesting divide.

1. Depeche Mode
2. PSB
3. New Order

I like all three, but I didn't even hestitate when it came to putting them in order.

I've only had limited exposure to each band (I have best-ofs for NO and PSBs), but from what I've heard I'd rate New Order as the best. PSBs aren't far behind, and they have songs that easily match the best of NO, but some of their output doesn't appeal to me at all. As for DM I've only heard some of "Violater" and it was OK-ish, but I didn't like Gahan's vocals.

xpost - but you're wrong about the new stuff, grimly!

I think NO are pretty much the same as they've ever been : fantastic in the studio and hit or miss live. Sure Barney's woots and dancing is kind of embarrasing, but no more or less than back in early 80's when he sometimes used to take the stage so pissed he could barely stand. Actually the autocue that he's been using for the last 5 or so years is pretty embarrassing.

Of course it's not the same without Gill pushing the buttons.

i saw both recent tours for PSB and NO and have to disagree with Gukbe. i'm not sure if you saw the last PSB tour but that was embarrassing. the backup dancers, the pathetic stage set, the "press play on the Lp version" renditions of the songs. everything about it was cheap and off-putting to me. i did get to hear Heart though, so that was positive.

New Order, on the other hand, were as good in 05 as a band as they've ever been live. i'm not saying if i had my choice i'd choose to see an 05 show, but as far as technique (!) goes, the band were on top form.

New Order as a whole have always had some cringe-inducing moments. no band has meant more to me than New Order though. you make excuses for the things you love and i've got millions of excuses for New Order. i love all 3 of the bands in this poll, but for me it comes down to emotions and memories. New Order provides the stongest and most dear of both.

John, did you see the Violator poll?

I thought Waiting for the Siren's Call was mostly a dud. Even when they're still writing great songs, like "Krafty", the lyrics are almost too awful to ignore.

"They've got violence, wars and killing too
All shrunk down in a two-foot tube
But out there the world is a beautiful place
With mountains, lakes and the human race"

I enjoyed the recent PSB tours (both with the cube and without), but mostly because Neil and Chris were still class. Might have been the crowds influencing me as well, as NO attracted the same crowd as the Charlatans (one very unfortunate gig experience).

Let's not start on the lyrics :) They are what they are.

But I think they were better live back in the era 81-85 when it was a different set every night, prototypes of new songs performed before they were fully written, and learning how to use the new technology on the fly.

They sounded great in 2005, but you pretty much knew what they were going to play before the gig (i.e. what Roger Lyons has already programmed in for them.) I gotta say that Phil miming some keyboard parts was pretty disappointing. And then there's the fuckin' autocue!

Still the best band ever though. PSB are a very great singles band. DM are totally worthless.

I thought Waiting for the Siren's Call was mostly a dud. Even when they're still writing great songs, like "Krafty", the lyrics are almost too awful to ignore.

You're forgetting how beautiful the melody wrapped around those lyrics are, and that's why I love New Order.

what is it you dislike so much about DM? i'm surprised and a little shocked ;)

Of course it's not the same without Gill pushing the buttons ... But I think they were better live back in the era 81-85 when it was a different set every night, prototypes of new songs performed before they were fully written, and learning how to use the new technology on the fly

OTM in a variety of ways (qv the lengthy ranting about this i've done passim).

as for "krafty": actually, i think that's a wonderful lyric. but that's barney for you :)

(the first bit of that was an xpost to dr C, obviously!)

IIRC, anything that is tinged with goth that isn't Joy Division is worthless in Dr. C's eyes.

You're forgetting how beautiful the melody wrapped around those lyrics are, and that's why I love New Order.

The problem is I'm not forgetting the melody. It's amazing and one of the best singles of that year, but that lyric nearly destroys the experience. It is one of the more maddening aspects of recent NO.

Killers "Mr Brightside" TWD remix one of the better NO songs of recent years.

of "recent" NO?

off the top of my head:

"well we had a party at our hotel last night
it ended up in an awful fight
my friend left me and my heart too
i hope i don't end up like you

oh you know what i mean
oh yes you do"

i think low-life was when it became obvious that barney's vignettes were as frequently a miss as a hit. still: when he gets it right, he gets it bang fucking on: "oh how i cannot bear the thought of you" being a perfect example.

I kind of don't see why "Krafty" gets singled out for rapturous melodic praise when the verse doesn't move away from the first three notes of "Three Blind Mice"; pretty much every other song on WFTSC is more interesting.

agh these threads.

i love new order and the pet shop boys. i can't justify going either way without feeling some level of guilt.

xpost to Dan

Well thanks for that Dan, but I like the Cure up to about Disintegration at least. And I love practically everything that Siouxsie has ever done - and there's none more goth at times.

Nah - I'll try and articulate what it is about DM that renders them useless, when I have a bit of time to think. For now let's just say, they don't belong in the same company as NO or PSBs because they've never done anything that just fucking well wallops you over the head emotionally, and leaves you gasping for air. (The first 30 seconds of It's A Sin, the intro to Ceremony, fragements of lyrics "for these last few days/leave me alone". DM are just so...earthbound and dull in comparison. Gahan is a big part of the problem too.

when the verse song doesn't move away from the first three notes of "Three Blind Mice" being suspiciously like "deep sleep" by red turns to.

^ fixed

Yes, Dan OTM about Krafty. But WFTSC is still a marvellous record.

Well thanks for that Dan, but I like the Cure up to about Disintegration at least. And I love practically everything that Siouxsie has ever done - and there's none more goth at times.

Okay I'm very confused because I thought you were the person who said everything Siouxsie did after The Scream was worthless goth nonsense?!!?!? Who am I confusing you with?

For now let's just say, they don't belong in the same company as NO or PSBs because they've never done anything that just fucking well wallops you over the head emotionally, and leaves you gasping for air.

Last minute of Enjoy The Silence to thread.

DM is basically fun early singles, and Enjoy teh Silence which is sublime.
NO are tiny-teeny fraction ahead of PSB. just. today

I kind of don't see why "Krafty" gets singled out for rapturous melodic praise when the verse doesn't move away from the first three notes of "Three Blind Mice"

I don't know about rapturous praise; I argued that you can't separate the lyrics from the wonderful melody.

xpost - I dunno Dan. I've loved Tinderbox, Kaleidoscope, JuJu etc since they all came out. It's true though that The Scream is the best.

That's not to say that I didn't say that. I do talk bollocks as you know.

See also on ILM:

Taking Sides: Pet Shop Boys vs. New Order
Taking Sides: Pet Shop Boys vs. New Order

(circa 2004)

New Order, on the other hand, were as good in 05 as a band as they've ever been live.

The New Order live DVD from like 2001 is absolutely embarrassing. The performances from the early '80s are great. I don't want to see Hooky and Bernard "rocking out."

New Order's peaks are higher, PSBs more consistent. Both amongst the greats.

As for DM, until I got the internet I had no idea anyone actually liked them anymore. I'm guessing that none of the fans above are from the UK, too portentous to be taken seriously at home. ("Just can't get enough" was good though).

too portentous to be taken seriously at home

You people love Coldplay. Gimme a better excuse.

I'm guessing that none of the fans above are from the UK, too portentous to be taken seriously at home

i am an out-and-proud UK DM fan.

I'm guessing that none of the fans above are from the UK, too portentous to be taken seriously at home.

Why won't people let the "portentous American" stereotype die?

I'm surprised so many people dislike Depeche Mode and/or think they're goth.

("Just can't get enough" was good though).

a friend of mine, a brit who has been a DM fan since back in the day, switched this song off in disgust when we were driving once. i was surprised by extreme dislike of that particular song.

but that's a great song :-(

i'm going to try to put something in Dan's head

ALL DAY ALL DAY
ALL DAY ALL DAY

(all day, all day) watch them all fall down
(all day, all day) domino dancing
(all day, all day) watch them all fall down
(all day, all day) domino dancing

omar little would like the pet shop boys. teh gay.

o indeed

"West End Girls" alone is better than anything DM or NO have ever done, so the Pets of course. New Order have a couple of tracks that are ALMOST as good though. So for me it's

PSB>NO>>>DM

ALL DAY ALL DAY
ALL DAY ALL DAY

-- omar little, Wednesday, October 31, 2007 10:46 PM (36 minutes ago)

I thought you were going for the Ministry angle w/that one.

Hahaha

"Domino Dancing" is great, fuck the haters

grimly aside DM, post-vince c anyway, does seem to be an american thing, bidfurd otm.

nonsense

i'm just talking from experience. the only anglo DM fan i ever met was a goth.

DM, post-vince c anyway, does seem to be an american thing, bidfurd otm.

I would like to call your attention to this Wikipedia page on Depeche Mode's discography where among other things all the UK chart placements for albums and singles are noted.

hahahahahahahaha well thats pretty conclusive i think.

Regarding DM I think this it's Vince's exit that is the turning point regarding UK (or Europe in its entirety) vs. US.

Generally, the US started to pick up on Depeche Mode around the "Music For The Masses" album, which was about the time they became more "rock'n'roll" in their sound ("Music For The Masses" doesn't contain any guitars from my knowledge, but more live sounding sounds, like a lot of piano presets, for instance). Also, around this time they started working with Anton Corbijn, and he played an important part in helping them get a "darker" and more "serious" visual image, which means they were easier to take seriously from a "rockist" point of view. The fact that there wasn't really something called "synthpop" anymore may also have helped them, as that meant they weren't lumped with a bunch of bands they had little in common with anymore.

Musically, the Depeche Mode of "Violator" isn't too different from the Depeche Mode of "Some Great Reward" though. It's all about sampling, lots of metallic sounds, and the somewhat dark minor-key atmosphere that some goths consider goth enough to like. And apart from their U2/NIN-wannabe album SOFAD, this is roughly where they have been staying musically ever since "Construction Time Again" in 1983.