Being sexually attracted to (or repulsed by) certain racial types: the acceptable face of racism?

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skottie, what you just posted was obviously correct. And, unrelatedly, maybe using "ms chen" as the name of a stereotypical chinese woman probably isn't necessary racist, i suppose.

i get the feeling that the actual points of my posts early would never actually be read, anyway.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:07 (twenty years ago) link

("early" should have been "earlier")

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:08 (twenty years ago) link

If they peeked, and let the race or gender of the person being judged influence them one way or the other, we might well be justified in calling this 'racist' or 'sexist'.

IRL, I think there are very few cases where race and gender are immaterial to judgement. These are still 'differences that make a difference', and need to be taken into account when we make judgements. If they aren't, our judgements can't be fair. So I think the image of Justice wearing a blindfold is a rather silly one, and I also think that to call people 'racist' and 'sexist' -- if it just means they take race and gender into account -- is a wrongheaded criticism.

'My it ain't so open that anything could crawl right in...'

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:09 (twenty years ago) link

'My mind it ain't so open that anything could crawl right in...'

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:10 (twenty years ago) link

The last place to lose yourself
Is. In. The. World. Where. We. All.
Cling cling cling cling cling cling cling cling

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:12 (twenty years ago) link

What kind of "difference that makes a difference" is deserving of a race-wide attribution?

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:13 (twenty years ago) link

white men can't jump

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:14 (twenty years ago) link

Race, as long as it makes a difference (and I don't say it should) must be taken into account. Not to do so is unfair.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:15 (twenty years ago) link

It's worth remembering, though, that all human affairs and all human beings are multi-dimensional. Race and gender are just vectors in a big spill pile with hundreds of other criteria. And they all have to be taken into account.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:17 (twenty years ago) link

(incidentally, before it looks like I'm being holier than thou - I think most of those open-minded people actually live in magic-fantasy-fun-land)

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:19 (twenty years ago) link

If they ALL have to be taken into account, having a racial preference is contradictory - full stop.

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:22 (twenty years ago) link

You can have a racial preference amongst other preferences. Your racial preference might be shorthand for a whole slew of other preferences. Dark hair and eyes, non-Christianity, etc.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:24 (twenty years ago) link

Emphasis on the word "racial" as in that context it should have lost meaning.

shorthand = prejudice

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:25 (twenty years ago) link

i want to make out with a girl with a 4 dimensional vagina

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:26 (twenty years ago) link

oh and prejudice = lazy and lazy = human

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:26 (twenty years ago) link

and human = shit

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:28 (twenty years ago) link

"Show me a person without prejudices, and I'll show you..."

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:28 (twenty years ago) link

Also, humans fit things into categories. It would be impossible to speak, or even think, without categories. The question is, what sorts of values we apply on different categories, and do we realize there's more than them, even if we use them for conviniency's sake.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:31 (twenty years ago) link

If 'prejudice' means what you believe before you've tried something, there should be a word like 'postjudice' for what you know after you've tried it. Prejudice would be bad, but postjudice would be fine.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:33 (twenty years ago) link

Baby I've tried 'em all, and it's you, you, you
Don't call me postjudiced, it's true, true, true

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:35 (twenty years ago) link

I think what I'm getting at is that everyone uses pre-judgements to some degree or other, and they are highly useful, but are also very unreliable in terms of their fairness/justness/acceptabilty. I mean, defend their usefulness and expediency, but recognise that little else there is so worthy.

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:37 (twenty years ago) link

How about 'sub judice'? You never stop learning (or changing yr judgements).

― Liz :x (Liz :x), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:39 (twenty years ago) link

haha, post-judice = like god or sumfin'

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:42 (twenty years ago) link

How about 'sub judice'? You never stop learning (or changing yr judgements).

The thing is, choices and decisions and value judegements are necessary. We all need closure at some point. If everything is sub-judice all the time, it's chaos. And the context I most hear that phrase in is when the authorities gag the press, telling them they can report something because it's being judged. In other words, 'You can't judge this before I do.'

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:45 (twenty years ago) link

~~can~~ can't

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 14:46 (twenty years ago) link

the word you're looking for is "estimation" or "opinion," M

always happy to help

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 15:24 (twenty years ago) link

Kim OT fucking M, as always.

― Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 15:32 (twenty years ago) link

In other words, nobody would expect all actors in society to be entitled to exactly the same life experiences as all others, and even if we expected an open-minded person to be willing to consider marrying partners of all races, we wouldn't expect him or her to actually marry someone from every race, one after the other.

This would actually be the greatest thing ever and will be the cornerstone of my 2008 presidential campaign.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 16:14 (twenty years ago) link

Well, you'll get the polygamy vote. Utah is yours for the taking.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 16:37 (twenty years ago) link

HOORAY.

― VengaDan Perry for President (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 16:41 (twenty years ago) link

PERRY IN '08

He'll give it to everyone.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:07 (twenty years ago) link

(On a more serious note, I don't think I've ever agreed with anything Momus has said more strongly than I have with the sentence I quoted.)

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:09 (twenty years ago) link

Perry-Momus - the dream ticket. Book your seat on the Venga campaign bus now.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:14 (twenty years ago) link

It does sound more appealing than the Kerry campaign, scarily enough.

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:15 (twenty years ago) link

(I am more than half-serious about running for president in 2008, BTW)

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:16 (twenty years ago) link

In that case more than 90% of your posts here would have to be deleted....depending on the tenor of your campaign.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:17 (twenty years ago) link

Right now I'm hoping for Ian Bostridge or Anthony Dean Griffey.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:18 (twenty years ago) link

Dan if you run for President in 2008 it may well be the greatest thing ever.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:24 (twenty years ago) link

From reading personal ads, it seems like women are in general more likely have racial preferences. Especially online, where this is as easy as omitting checks from a few boxes. Lots of women seem to be willing to date anyone so long as they aren't black or middle-eastern. Or they'll dodge the race question and eliminate Muslim men.

― Chris H. (chrisherbert), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:37 (twenty years ago) link

Eliminate them? Cripes - what magazines are you reading?

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:47 (twenty years ago) link

The National Review, obv.

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:48 (twenty years ago) link

Look at a personal ad site online. Match.com or whatever, and you'll see people, mostly women, with a long list of acceptable religions/denominations, and Muslim will not be there. That's all I mean. I don't know, maybe they're afraid that muslim men will beat them or something, that's the stereotype, isn't it?

― Chris H. (chrisherbert), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:58 (twenty years ago) link

Or maybe they feel that the Muslim world view is incompatible with theirs? Who knows? I wouldn't date a devout Muslim for that reason, but I would have no problem dating a Muslim who was one merely by circumstance and didn't practice. Bit also, I couldn't see myself dating a devout Christian or Jew. But... I think I could probably date a Quaker. Hmmmmmm....

― Lil' Fancy Kpants (The K is Silent) (ex machina), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 18:01 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah, but these sites have really long lists of religions. Quaker would probably fall under Protestant. But using Match.com as an example, possible choices are: Agnostic, Atheist, Buddhist/Taoist, Christian/Catholic, Christian/LDS, Christian/Protestant, Christian/Other, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim/Islam, Spiritual but not religious, and Other.

Maybe I'm being a policeman, but it seems suspicious to think that anything *except* muslim is okay.

― Chris H. (chrisherbert), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 18:07 (twenty years ago) link

Yea, aren't Hindus kind of stereotypically sexist? (Although most I've met -- grad students -- have been just very nice kids.)

Offtopic: Most people I'd met from India before college were the children of Muslim doctors immigrants. Why?

― Lil' Fancy Kpants (The K is Silent) (ex machina), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 18:10 (twenty years ago) link

<em>the point was, saying "i haven't encountered an asian woman whom i've found attractive" isn't necessarily racist. but to say "i find asian women unattractive" is. </em>

no.. those two examples are equivalents. it would be racist to say "all asian women are unattractive"

― don, Tuesday, 13 April 2004 18:29 (twenty years ago) link

I think I could probably date a Quaker.

but you'd just be Friends, hawhaw

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 21:36 (twenty years ago) link

if ugly people were a race, I'd be Archie Bunker.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 21:49 (twenty years ago) link

Oops,

Everybody ends up being part of that race eventually.

― Michael White (Hereward), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 22:03 (twenty years ago) link

I'm taking my time.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 22:17 (twenty years ago) link

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