P2K: The Top 200 Albums of the 2000s: 20-1

There will be an approving blurb from Vernon Reid on the cover.

being "funky" instead of funky

can we start a thread on this--not sure i know the "difference" between these two "terms"

Masonic, mostly it's that in rock, indie and dance, pure technical musicianship is not the only relevant yardstick. No one here is arguing that "women can't play."

hahaha you are dangerously close to saying that one of the relevant factors that makes one a rock, indie or dance musician is having a penis

That's funny, because in my decades of playing in rock bands, I heard the old "women can't play" chestnut more times than I can count.

And in my recent experiences and adventures in dance music culture, the old meme of "women can't play" certainly seemed to be alive and well and fully functioning.

And yet... even if "no one is arguing this..." - what on earth IS this ineffable quality that those 17 bands have if it's NOT 2 balls and a cock?

x-post Dan that is sig-worthy if we had sigs here! ha ha ha.

""funky""

one objection to this might be that "hip hop" is a fairly narrowly defined genre while "indie" is a pretty broad cultural category that can and does apply to any number of different genres of music

― max

Yeah, but hip-hop isn't necessarily defined so conservatively (it's maybe worth wondering we're so ready to accept that it should be). And while indie can be as broad or as narrow as you want it to be, that doesn't mean it lacks a core aesthetic. I just don't think there's anything wrong with that core aesthetic.

I was glibly going to say that the real reason there's a gender imbalance in rock culture is because it fucks up the groupie situation but I wonder if there's a kernel of truth in there, ha.

you are dangerously close to saying that one of the relevant factors that makes one a rock, indie or dance musician is having a penis

― HI DERE

That's funny, because in my decades of playing in rock bands, I heard the old "women can't play" chestnut more times than I can count.

And in my recent experiences and adventures in dance music culture, the old meme of "women can't play" certainly seemed to be alive and well and fully functioning.

― Masonic Boom

Yr forgetting that we're basically on the same side. I only said that no one's pushing the bullshit "women can't play" line here.

I'd argue that in 99% of dance music, the gender of the person making it genuinely is irrelevant because the records are so functional and faceless. Weirdly there actually are a lot of female producers and DJs in minimal/techno in particular, and also lots of occasions where people aren't even aware the producer in question is female.

(Kate before you mention your experiences on the Erol forum I'd argue that's a special case because Erol and his fans are so focussed on testosterone-led rock bosh). - xpost too late

I was glibly going to say that the real reason there's a gender imbalance in rock culture is because it fucks up the groupie situation but I wonder if there's a kernel of truth in there, ha.

HA HA HA, not really. More like that's why there are less female music critics. When guys wanna hang around and obsessively stalk their idols they have to fabricate this whole fantasy of being a tastemaking music writer dude with a fanzine - while girls just cut to the chase of what the fanboys would really LIKE to be doing.

But that's the plot to another thread, and I think it's called Almost Famous.

I didn't post the Hopper book cover as a joke, btw. I really do think that the existence of books like that, and the Rock 'n' Roll Camp for Girls, encourage more girls to start bands and teach them how to work the system, which is one step toward leveling the playing field.

I'd argue that in 99% of dance music, the gender of the person making it genuinely is irrelevant because the records are so functional and faceless.

― Matt DC

This might be true in clubs, on a day-to-day basis, but in terms of how larger audiences consume dance music product, it does seem that being a guy is, again, an enormous professional asset.

In clubs on a day-to-day basis IS how larger audiences consume dance music product, WAY more than actually buy the records.

has anyone actually voted in this poll?

jaymc otm re: that book and girls rock camp

what poll??

i voted for ghostface

i haven't voted actually who am I to talk

(Kate before you mention your experiences on the Erol forum I'd argue that's a special case because Erol and his fans are so focussed on testosterone-led rock bosh).

Alright, Erol and I have already torn each other new arseholes over this on his forum, but... I honestly don't think that he really is. I think he has got *big* playing a certain kind of music (the testosterone bosh) that attracts a certain kind of arsehole.

I know for a fact that he actually owns and LOVES like... Huggy Bear records. Ironically, it was *him* that turned me onto Warpaint and the first conversation we ever had was about how amazing Delia Derbyshire was. But he doesn't get paid thousands of pounds to fly around the world playing obscure riot grrrl records, he gets paid to go and play that awful Rapey Nanorobot shit.

Why am I defending Erol anyway, he hates my guts. I just want to draw a distinction as to the difference between an artist and their fanbase.

In clubs on a day-to-day basis IS how larger audiences consume dance music product, WAY more than actually buy the records.

― Matt DC

Good point. Maybe the imbalance I'm talking about has more to do with identity marketing than with deep-down music appreciation -- to the extent that you can separate the two. I mean, I hope that's the case.

Rapey Nanorobot shit?

I mean, I know I'm not really up on new dance genres, but...

there's something wrong for me right, because reading the phrase "Rapey Nanorobot shit" made me go "oh hey, I might like that"

Sorry, ha ha, Erol in-joke.

It actually does make me feel like my ears are being violated.

lol still not dissuading me!

You know, that really hard tech-edged stuff a la what the Boys Noize crew play and all.

We were talking about their single, and I loved the A-side but said the B-side sounded like "being fucked to death by angry nanorobots" and up Erol pops going CAN WE USE THAT IN THE PRESS RELEASE PLS and then Tronic Youth nicked it for a remix name and now we has new genre. ha ha.

That Boys Noize stuff seems to get eaten up by boys and girls in equal measure no matter how macho it sounds - it's an anomaly (seems so to me anyhow), sort of interesting but for the actual music

Doesn't a similar thing happen with metal?

i can't remember who i voted for. kind of a sausage-fest tho. what is up with that?

From an outsider perspective, it seems to me like the majority of it is being consumed as DJ Brand Experience of hard clubbing and hard partying and taking drugs and getting off your face and getting laid (activities really quite amenable to both genders really) rather than specifically about the music. But that perspective could really be due to negative experiences at the clubs that play that kind of thing and the forums where such music is discussed.

In clubs on a day-to-day basis IS how larger audiences consume dance music product, WAY more than actually buy the records.

― Matt DC

Also (and I'm saying this in a "correct me if I'm wrong" spirit), I've gotten the impression that the big draws in most clubs/club scenes still tend to be well-known male DJs. I don't go to dance clubs often and am pretty much dialed out of that scene, but that's the impression I get based on limited experience.

Depends on the scene - as a general rule though the more faceless the music the more female DJs there are.

Doesn't a similar thing happen with metal?

― Matt DC, Thursday, 8 October 2009 16:10 (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Ehhh, not really... I think there are plenty of women who don't give a shit about metal having a thematic bias towards quote-unquote Manly Activities and just listen to it and bug out but I feel like being a 'black metal chick' is gonna render you pretty much an object of fetishisation

(or whatever other genre of metal save for like Nightwish type bands and such)

just wanna say RIP Kemistry

I mean, perhaps that is also true of the indie experience, that it's about consuming a lifestyle as much as an aesthetic.

But I can bet you that if I went to an Animal Collective and asked a dozen fans what song was playing, they'd be able to tell me.

Having had the experience at an Erol Alkan gig, of asking a string of people "do you know what's playing?" and having them smile and nod and say with complete confidence "it's Erol Alkan!" (It was in fact Spacemen 3, which is why I was so shocked) - I think that you're absolutely right in saying that it's based on well known DJs.

There are a *handful* of people who actually care about the exact tracks being played (usually those who want to be big-name DJs themselves) but for the most part, it all seemed to be branding.

But I do admit that Alkan has got his reputation from being an "ecclectic" DJ so this might be an unusual circumstance to base it on.

I'm really not sure how we got on this tangent anyway. (probably something about wanting to lick the beard of Alkan's widdle indie face or the usual.)

haha no, it was the "Rapey Nanobot shit" comment

xxp: Damn Dan, you just brought back hurt from the old times. rIP

oh dear, I've spent the past 6 months trying to come up with a way to get some sexual innuendo out of Erol and "rapey nanorobots" and so far failed, unfortunately, I don't have your dirty mind, Dan. (thank GOD)

Depends on the scene - as a general rule though the more faceless the music the more female DJs there are.

― Matt DC

Maybe that's the operating rule of thumb across the board. Certainly seems to be true in classical music, as Masonic suggested above. There most of the focus is placed on pure ability, to the point of blind auditions, and women (unsurprisingly) do very well.

Classical also makes a good object lesson in that to the extent that celebrities do emerge, they tend to fall into familiar patterns: hott young boys and girls, and serious men making "important" art.

Having had the experience at an Erol Alkan gig, of asking a string of people "do you know what's playing?" and having them smile and nod and say with complete confidence "it's Erol Alkan!" (It was in fact Spacemen 3, which is why I was so shocked) - I think that you're absolutely right in saying that it's based on well known DJs.

― Masonic Boom

Well, in defense of Spacemen-3-igorant Alkan fans, the point in a DJ set is the mix more than the individual tracks. Dancing is more important than knowing about.

hard to put this well but it can be difficult imagining a lot of different band types existing (let alone being successful critically and/or commercially) with gender switched e.g. an all-female Radiohead, AC, Daft Punk and other 'pfork-friendly'/'ILM-friendly' models...

i like to think they should for reasons i hope are obvious, working on the basis that anybody can and should be able to make the kinds of music i like (i don't like this hard/cold/technical=masculine / soft/sensual/organic=feminine rule thing at all in terms of what genders are supposed to be better at/suited to - keen to play that down tho it's perpetuated by many who don't see anything wrong with it - it may not be 'wrong' as such, but surely many of us find it needlessly restrictive). part of this is just getting bored with the formulae in the genres i've been more into traditionally e.g. another year another hotly-tipped male dance duo...

the number of bands ft male and female members together may be increasing or may just be fairly constant - it would just be pleasing/re-assuring to see, in addition to that, more all-female acts in these areas. just 'ordinary' women not those who become better known for their looks. probably some issues prevent this beyond industry caution. and maybe this would be seen too much as 'women becoming more like men' as opposed to actual equality (with the gender term no longer relevant) but that seems wrong to me.

from what i gather, there are more barriers to entry for women in dance music - the initial stages of getting gigs, being taken seriously as a producer - but few people have a problem with praising the women at the very top of the game (cassy, ellen allien) as geniuses - though having said that, they still get a fair bit of "oh did her boyfriend produce that?" comments too. and one thing that those women have in common is that they're excellent, ambitious businesswomen - a disproportionate amount of whom run their own labels etc - so maybe you need to be *that type* of woman to bust through and gain recognition.

(or whatever other genre of metal save for like Nightwish type bands and such)

Kerrang has a majority female readership for the past 5 years or so now.
Those Nightwish type bands are HUGE in mainland Europe. Proper mainstream stuff. And there's loads of them.

Though Kerrang is a mainly "emo" mag now.

x-post it wasn't the not knowing that got to me, it was the way they blissfully insisted that it was "Erol Alkan" rather than just saying they didn't know the track.

Is "where is the all female Radiohead" going to be the "what about Shakespeare's sister" (not Shakespeare's Sister, not that there was anything wrong with them) of the 21st century?

In terms of personal tastes, I have always PREFERRED mixed groups to all-anything bands. I mean, I'd rather listen to MBV or classic era Stereolab than Radiohead *or* a theoretical all-female Radiohead. But in the UK at least, mixed bands seem to be declining in number - not so, fortunately, in other countries - hence we get things like The Knife and School of Seven Bells (again, this is just MY personal tastes)

being "funky" instead of funky

can we start a thread on this--not sure i know the "difference" between these two "terms"

would "discuss"