P2K: The Top 200 Albums of the 2000s: 20-1

without, i'm guessing, even bothering to hear the critically acclaimed album in question?

― lex pretend

That's assumptive, lex, and likely rong besides. I'm sure that a number of sometime PFork writers have heard the friggin Mariah album -- at least in passing, at least in part. It doesn't surprise me one bit that most of them didn't go for it in a big way, and I don't fault them for it. No more than I fault the Mariah Carey Fan Club's monthly newsletter for failing to cover many hundreds of extremely important Wavves singles.

The point isn't what's good or bad, important or unimportant in some ridiculous/fictional "objective" sense. It mostly comes down to what specific people are personally interested in for basically arbitrary reasons. I mean, no one's obliged to be interested in Mariah Carey. Certainly not at Pitchfork lolindie central.

i guess what i really want is for mainstream popular music critics to stop being so indie-centric in the main; i had really high hopes of this happening about midway through the decade, but it's even worse now! i don't really enjoy being a voice in the wilderness; it's just a consequence of interacting w/mainstream critics and those who engage with/talk about them.

If Blender is still around I'd imagine they'll come up a list that is more inclusive of mainstream pop and R&B. Rolling Stone to a lesser extent.

what i really want is for mainstream popular music critics to stop being so indie-centric in the main; i had really high hopes of this happening about midway through the decade, but it's even worse now!

― lex pretend

I think what you were observing (WR2 Pitchfork) was a combination of mainstream American rock critics becoming more indie-centric, and PFork-style indie criticism becoming A) more mainstream and B) more interested in non-indie music. Whiney was saying this the other day, and I kinda disagreed, but I see his point.

Once Pitchfork attained a certain level of popularity/influence, they not only could boost indie popularity into mainstream sales, they could also pull records out of other genres (dance, hip-hop, etc.) into the view of their massive, cash-flush indie-crossover nation. This seems to have created an open-minded audience and fertile ground for cross-pollination. And maybe it's true that they've become less inclined to use their power this way in the 2nd half of the decade -- or less successful at it.

Yeah, lex, sorry, but the only consistent critical props Carey ever got (apart for "Vision of Love" very early on) was for Mimi (it even got a proper SFJ review in the ol' New Yorker).

mariah carey fucking sucks

Honestly before I saw who Lex was talking about I thought he meant Kate Bush.

i think 'mimi' is a dope record & i voted for it

'we belong together' was song of the summer that year

& while i dont agree w/ all of lex's specific complaints & criticisms I think hes absolutely on point that its an acclaimed record & were I voting for pforks list (heyyy -- i was!) i would choose mimi before 90% of that list (heyyy -- i did!)

not really sure why thats super objectionable to ppl

Honestly before I saw who Lex was talking about I thought he meant Kate Bush

The Emancipation of the Red Shoes.

Dan saying "Depeche Mode released one of the best records of the 00s" is more like lex stumping for paris hilton (not in any way critically acclaimed, purely a personal challop choice)

No, they did. :-D

not really sure why thats super objectionable to ppl

Well, I don't give a damn about Carey apart from a few singles, but she's totally defensible -- most things are if you're a good writer! When I was features editor at Stylus I entertained every kind of defend-the-indefensible pitch, to the amusement of our readers (and, honestly, a few staff members), who genuinely thought we were Being Ironic.

Yeah, lex, sorry, but the only consistent critical props Carey ever got (apart for "Vision of Love" very early on) was for Mimi (it even got a proper SFJ review in the ol' New Yorker).

i think this is a bad thing and an indictment of critics everywhere, not something to sigh and go "eh, whatever" over

Well, and William McKinley is an underrated president. Get the fuck over it.

u guys are being pretty dick-ish

xxp lol it is an indictment of critics that they don't like something you like

There's a fairly strong, loud Carey claque here. Go pitch some essays. It's a shame PFM won't take them.

who will be Mariah's Leon Czolgosz?

i still dont think lex saying "mariah should have made the list" is really that absurd. I understand that on a personal level Dan doesnt like her music, but purely from an objective standpoint, its obvious that r&b is underrepresented in pfork's voting blocs when her record doesnt make the list. neither did records by Aaliyah, (R&B elite mindgardgen choice) Teedra, Usher, etc

*mindgarden

a weingarten?

you guys are acting like this is some minor niche interest kind of deal. its not the same as dan still listening to new order 2 decades after they mattered

not really sure why thats super objectionable to ppl

It's not super-objectionable to anyone, I don't think. I'm just saying that Mariah Carey not making Pitchfork's list doesn't make it all "what a disaster for Pitchfork." You know what else didn't make Pitchfork's list? Anything by Bob Dylan, who topped the Pazz and Jop poll twice this decade. Which I don't really hear anyone complaining about.

There's a fairly strong, loud Carey claque here. Go pitch some essays. It's a shame PFM won't take them.

oh no you didn't. fuck you too.

pfork clearly does not have enough writers repping boring old man rock

xxp lol it is an indictment of critics that they don't like something you like

have you even managed to read any of the wider issues which kate/deej/myself and others have been discussing at length here

i dont think im saying "what a disaster for pitchfork." I dont think its ridiculous or challopsy to say 'i wish pfork's albums list had more R&B.' If not mariah specifically, then a few more of the other acclaimed R&B records of the past ten years.

I don't think Bob Dylan records not making it is comparable. R&B appeals to a young audience. Pitchfork has a young audience. Bob Dylan records sell to a cult of followers, like a bigger-screen baby boomer version of dan perry's fav 80s artists Still Making Music

plus its a total auteur-cult type deal that get ppl saying hes still making GENIUS SHIT this long into his career ... i mean seriously

I'm more in sympathy with you three than you think -- most posters here are! But this conversation is akin to sitting in a bar with people whose reactions you can predict to a metronome.

xp yeah i have and tbh it is often difficult to rectify those larger points with the stuff you say post to post

plus its a total auteur-cult type deal that get ppl saying hes still making GENIUS SHIT this long into his career ... i mean seriously

― xhuxk mangione (deej), Wednesday, October 7, 2009 8:00 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

have you listened to Love and Theft?

Here's two smart Carey articles.

I dont think its ridiculous or challopsy to say 'i wish pfork's albums list had more R&B.'

I don't think it is, or that anyone is really saying it is - it's just that when you start talking about individual records it's hard to give empirical airtight reasons why anything should be elevated above *an entire decade's worth of albums* to this uh hallowed top 20 status, and it's also pretty easy to find reasons why this *shouldn't* be the case

(obv that goes for the stuff that is being polled here [lol remember when this was a poll thread] at least as much as Mariah or whatever else)

I still don't get it, though, deej. I can totally understand saying "Mariah made a great fucking record. More people need to know this." And I can totally understand being uninterested in the Pitchfork list due to different taste.

But I don't get the idea that Pitchfork NEEDS to include this or that album, or that there's something WRONG with the fact that it's not paying proper respect to certain things. I don't see how this would matter to anyone who didn't have some emotional investment in PFork that they now feel bitter about. Or envied PFork's influence. Both of which seem a bit ridiculous to me.

That's what bugs me about the complaints. It's not like PFork = the fucking government or something.

Barack Obama uses 'Tom Ewing' as an alias.

I don't think it is, or that anyone is really saying it is - it's just that when you start talking about individual records it's hard to give empirical airtight reasons why anything should be elevated above *an entire decade's worth of albums* to this uh hallowed top 20 status, and it's also pretty easy to find reasons why this *shouldn't* be the case

― Vladislav Delap (DJ Mencap), Wednesday, October 7, 2009 3:06 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

but ... 'individual records' representing indie made this list, & altho folks nitpick they mostly agree on em
go to a message board w/ ppl talking about rap or R&B and a lot of them will agree on a bunch of records too, including most likely the mariah record

have you listened to Love and Theft?

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, October 7, 2009 3:02 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yah i heard it when it dropped, funny old man record no one would have paid attention to if it wasnt by BOB DYLAN

i dont think im saying "what a disaster for pitchfork."

The Lex said something about how it reflects poorly on Pitchfork not to have an album as self-evidently great as Mimi on the list.

In general, though, yeah, I'm with you: it'd be nice to see more R&B on the list. I don't think anyone disputes that. I'm also not particularly incensed that it's not there.

Plus the ridiculous young vs. old bullshit isn't helping your argument, deej. If that were the case, Pitchfork would have an equal responsibility to pay respect to all kinds of shit it currently doesn't. It's not fucking PeterPanFork.

But I don't get the idea that Pitchfork NEEDS to include this or that album, or that there's something WRONG with the fact that it's not paying proper respect to certain things. I don't see how this would matter to anyone who didn't have some emotional investment in PFork that they now feel bitter about. Or envied PFork's influence. Both of which seem a bit ridiculous to me.

b/c pfork's influence is such that its aesthetic spreads throughout pop culture in such a way that it impinges on the stuff i like? i'm sure deej can tell you about how the internet has ruined hip-hop in some ways, and a whole lot of that is to do with the indiefication of it

and fucking juno won an oscar, etc

It's not fucking PeterPanFork.

can we start a letter writing campaign, plz?

i guess i get that but you should consider practicing steely resolve in the face of these attacks.

no wait i don't get that--how does the aesthetic of a website that doesn't cover stuff you like impinge on stuff you like?

Wait, "Diablo Cody" is a pen name for Brent DiCrescenzo?

yah i heard it when it dropped, funny old man record no one would have paid attention to if it wasnt by BOB DYLAN

this is 100% insane.

and there's nothing wrong with funny old man records

notice my restraint, however, in not clamoring for it's inclusion in Pitchfork's list

quite frankly I think SouljaBoy and crunk did more to ruin hip-hop than anything else but that's just me