P2K: The Top 200 Albums of the 2000s: 20-1

Those are relevant, and interesting. At least as much for the discussion they generate as for the results themselves.

I feel you, cad, but I can't imagine arguing that PFork isn't influential. Like maybe even 70s Rolling Stone influential.

yeah i would never argue that it's not influential but i think there's a huge gap between its self-presentation and perceptions of it. smartest thing they ever did was not add user comments.

kate, what would your top 20 look like?

― Ømår Littel (Jordan), Tuesday, October 6, 2009 12:29 PM (54 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i also would like to know.

snap

I would have to give a lot more consideration and time and looking through my record collection than I am able to give during boring downtime at work.

these lists all end up looking the same because sure, maybe everyone's top ten picks only have two or three of the "usual suspects" compared with a bunch of relative obscurities, but then everyone probably has different obscurities and probably mostly the same picks from the more popular pool. so you end up with everyone "agreeing" that kid a is the definitive album of the oughts.

My top 20 list at this point is overwhelming female, I think. I don't know if there was sexual bias, but I was shocked that Neko Case didn't place higher (and more often), no Rilo Kiley that I noticed (could've been far up on the list), no Dixie Chicks/Carrie Underwood/Taylor Swift/Little Big Town (tho as Tim noted, country in general has issues, and IIRC Miranda Lambert and Loretta Lynn both were listed? Or maybe Lynn was just listed on the singles list, when she dueted with Jack White, which might be an entire other issue), Beth Orton, Cat Power, Kathleen Edwards, Laura Marling, Regina Spektor (was there really not a single Spektor album?), the Yeah Yeah Yeah's poor placement, the Gossip, Amy Winehouse (Still blown away by her non-inclusion), Kelly Clarkson, Pink, Rihanna, Noisettes, Pretty Girls Make Graves.

And that's sticking to the genres that readily come to mind as being relevant (theoretically or actually so) to the PFM aesthetic.

(Though I did earlier post a list of albums I would at least have to give consideration to above.)

I would want to be perverse and put Britney Spears' Blackout as the album of the decade on so many levels.

snap

― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Tuesday, October 6, 2009 1:28 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

it wasn't meant to be a snap. i honestly would like to know.

mordy i would just say that for a lot of the examples you gave pfork has been pretty consisting in maybe liking them but not loving them--i was surprised that for neko case records only blacklisted made it, i thought they loved fox confessor--but other than that, they've never expressed more than like standard approval of pretty girls make graves, amy winehouse as an albums artist, yyy's albums after fever to tell, etc. etc.

also like kelly c. and rihanna where way the hell up there on the tracks list--i don't think it's insane for an indie rock reviews site to not rate them as albums artists.

(Though I did earlier post a list of albums I would at least have to give consideration to above.)

but most of the albums you posted were in the list, just not in the top 20.

Yeah, just noting that it's possible to stay within the P4k aesthetic and rank female artists near the top of the list. My own list will, I'm guessing, be predominantly female artists. "never expressed more than like standard approval" is maybe worth looking at closer, tho, maybe? Like, why not?

it wasn't meant to be a snap. i honestly would like to know.

i was meaning snap as in "me too"

I think that's an unanswerable question, Mordy. Why should PFork staff be fond of Amy Winehouse or Pretty Girls Make Graves? We can justify our love/respect for things, but that doesn't mean that other people have to love/respect them in the same way. Personally, I hate Pretty Girls Make Graves, and I don't think that my distaste is worth any particularly close examination.

mordy yeah maybe--someone could go read the reviews. i remember they did have specific issues with the amy winehouse record, mostly because i really love that record. pretty girls make graves were basically an a++ emo band. kind of gets into personal taste because ultimately most of the list was created by the votes of what, 30 people max?

like yeah i do strongly doubt we could find evidence of gender bias at work tbh

Huh, that actually is an accepted definition of "snap," according to Urbandictionary.com, but it doesn't appear until the second page.

yes how shocking that the dixie chicks, taylor swift and miranda lambert didn't make the pitchfork end of decade list. i remember when they reviewed all the albums by those artists and gave them high ratings. stunning.

Yeah, I really have no clue if there's systematic lowering of grades for female artists. And if there is, I have no idea what kind of bias that exposes. Like someone mentioned above, different genres are gender-coded differently, and there could be any number of issues in there. Do country website round-ups (I know a couple ILXors contribute to those) rank female artists much higher than male artists? Is the RS list going to feature Dylan/Bruce/Radiohead in the top 3 spot?

XP yeah, that's why I noted there's a genre issue there.

guys, it's not gender bias, it's genre bias. there is plenty of fawning words for neko case's work in the new pornos (as well as one of her albums placing) and they've long been head over heels for annie & robyn. relax.

Yeah, I really have no clue if there's systematic lowering of grades for female artists.

i mean can we just get baseline agreement that is does not happen?

*that this

I can't imagine that it's true.

This is rapidly devolving from an interesting conversation into painful concern-trolling. Can we not generate diabolical active conspiracies to rail against? The actual passive reality is hard enough to resolve without chasing windmills as part of the process.

Can't post at length on bberry but the most salient recent pts seem to be

- kate on editorship - if pfork has any pretences to being more than a ghetto/niche site then this is evidence that it needs a wider variety of voices; I don't believe necessarily male or female but certainly more who are prepared to look beyond the white indie male canon (I'm aware it has like a couple of these already, and no coincidence that tom e, tim f and david d are like the only readable ppl on the site)
- whether or not pfork wants to be more than a niche - contenderizet frustratingly otm re its influence. If we and it accept that it's just an indie niche, it should not have that level of cultural tastemaking influence. At all.

Yeah, I was throwing that out there as what this isn't. It's not conscious. It's probably built into the genre codes and idk, maybe for some people the male voice sounds more important/significant (maybe going back to Dylan being rated over Boez or whatever). My only point was that they could've clearly included more female artists. It's not like the artists/albums don't exist.

How does p2k singles list compare with albums list for gender stuff?

there's a pretty good reason why Dylan is being rated over Baez. I'll let you guess what the reason is.

i always lol when i read something (not necessarily on pitchfork, though i think i read this re: rilo kiley once on the site) that dismisses a female artist as being too "lilith fair" or something. i'm almost positive i've read that kate bush or nina nastasia or vashti bunyan, even. i mean a lot of music with "softer" aspects is just totally disrespected, on both sides of the coin, but it's a little tougher for women.

lex i don't really know what you're saying except that you don't like pfork except for when ppl you know write for it?

lol jon lewis why don't you go see for yourself?

I don't want to get all critical kung fu out (I try to save that shit for school), but our critical methodologies for evaluating value aren't immune from gender considerations. Oh god this is becoming a retread of a popist/rockist argument how did i get sucked into another one of these. For what it's worth, I don't give a shit about how many female artists are on P4k's list. It's a boring list, non representative of the kinds of stuff I like, and for me to care about how many female artists are on it, I'd have to first care about anything that's on it.

maybe going back to Dylan being rated over Boez or whatever

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7HIPu3-ElDI/SOIY6KQO1wI/AAAAAAAAAF8/pjhTt5sIn0I/s400/DEFENSA+BOEZ.jpg

Pitchfork's top 20 tracks:

20. The Walkmen
"The Rat"
[Record Collection; 2004]

19. R. Kelly
"Ignition (Remix)"
[Jive/BMG; 2002]

18. Hercules and Love Affair
"Blind"
[DFA/Mute; 2008]

17. Annie
"Heartbeat"
[679; 2004]

16. The Rapture
"House of Jealous Lovers"
[DFA; 2002]

15. The Knife
"Heartbeats"
[Rabid/Mute; 2002]

14. Jay-Z
"99 Problems"
[Roc-A-Fella; 2003]

13. LCD Soundsystem
"Losing My Edge"
[DFA; 2002]

12. OutKast
"Hey Ya!"
[LaFace/Arista; 2003]

11. Gnarls Barkley
"Crazy"
[Downtown/Warner; 2005]

10. Arcade Fire
"Neighborhood #1 (Tunnels)"
[Merge; 2004]

9. Animal Collective
"My Girls"
[Domino; 2009]

8. Radiohead
"Idioteque"
[Capitol; 2000]

7. Missy Elliott
"Get Ur Freak On"
[Elektra; 2001]

6. Yeah Yeah Yeahs
"Maps"
[Interscope; 2003]

5. Daft Punk
"One More Time"
[Virgin; 2000]

4. Beyoncé [ft. Jay-Z]
"Crazy in Love"
[Columbia/Sony; 2003]

3. M.I.A. [ft. Bun B and Rich Boy]
"Paper Planes (Diplo Remix)"
[XL/Interscope; 2007]

2. LCD Soundsystem
"All My Friends"
[DFA/EMI; 2007]

1. OutKast
"B.O.B."
[LaFace/Arista; 2000]

So 6 of 20 in the singles list?

ftr that LCD Soundsystem song eats dog balls

which one

haha "All My Friends", oops

i always lol when i read something ... that dismisses a female artist as being too "lilith fair" or something. i'm almost positive i've read that kate bush or nina nastasia or vashti bunyan, even.

― omar little

Well, to be fair, a lot of male music gets dismissed for being "too jockish" or "for frat boys". It's basically the same complaint (that the thing in question is gender/culture coded in a way that is boring or even offensive), just broken out for use in different contexts.

At PFork, I suppose it's really just a way to say "not indie enough" (too ordinary, suburban, mom & dad, etc).

When was LCD Soundsystem dismissed for being too jockish?

So 6 of 20 in the singles list?

7 if you include Arcade Fire

Wasn't talking about LCD, Mordy. Think PFork most recently leveled the "fratboy" thing against a Bob Marley comp they were (the writer was) otherwise positive about.

lol jon lewis why don't you go see for yourself?

Bcuz cannot get away with looking at p4k at work at this particular moment.

k sorry i was harshin up there

"It's just this kind of build-up of frustration - as I said earlier - at seeing list after list being 90% male. And every one gets excused as "well, this is kind of a niche audience, so of course..." until you get to the point where you realise that there IS not a place where female artists seem to be getting rated as canonical until you go to places that are built to be pro-female by design."

I take it by "places" here you mean indie magazines or websites? And if so, then it is a niche audience. Let's not conflate music crit with indie crit.

Her complaint has general validity. The canon-forging (crowning?) critics' lists that get the most attention at year's end tend to be male-dominated in most genres. The tendency isn't confined to indie-land. Pazz n Jop voters seem to take pains to be inclusive/generalist, but still...

pazz n jop was created by a dude who dismissed the runaways as sluts so maybe his torch continues to be carried?

i think pazz n jop has the opposite problem, where old lechs vote for feist

"At PFork, I suppose it's really just a way to say "not indie enough" (too ordinary, suburban, mom & dad, etc)."

But ordinary suburban moms and dads listen to "indie" music. It's not like Kid A or OK Computer was just bought by the secret heads that are totally into this hermetic indie. Fuck, this stuff shows up in car commercials. I think we can stop pretending that it's not mainstream.