― Orbit (Orbit), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 03:31 (twenty years ago) link
Six million Americans report food stamps as their only source of income
This made me so sad.
― Herodcare for the Unborn (J0hn D.), Sunday, 3 January 2010 14:33 (fourteen years ago) link
http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2014/02/labour-markets-0
genuinely interested in whether or not a guaranteed minimum income can be more than an idle policy daydream
― Lamp, Wednesday, 19 February 2014 16:15 (ten years ago) link
https://decorrespondent.nl/541/why-we-should-give-free-money-to-everyone/20798745-cb9fbb39?utm_content=buffere7efe
Then came that fatal discovery: the number of divorces in Seattle had gone up by more than 50%. This percentage made the other, positive results seem utterly uninteresting. It gave rise to the fear that a basic income would make women much too independent. For months, the law proposal was sent back and forth between the Senate and the White House, eventually ending in the dustbin of history.Later analysis would show that the researchers had made a mistake – in reality the number of divorces had not changed.
Later analysis would show that the researchers had made a mistake – in reality the number of divorces had not changed.
― the ghosts of dead pom-bears (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 1 March 2014 20:05 (ten years ago) link
http://www.basicincome.org/news/2015/10/swiss-parliament-opposes-popular-initiative/
The "potential epidemic laziness" quoted in the article is the big lie at the center of our economy imho, and disproving it would be the biggest deal since the Reformation. Go Switzerland.
Also watching "Bridge on the River Kwai" helps understand where many unionists' problems with a basic income stem from.
― Wes Brodicus, Thursday, 12 November 2015 13:55 (eight years ago) link
Can anyone point me to good economic writing on the idea, e.g. addressing how it would be calculated, what its economic effects would be, whether it would cause inflation or why not, etc.
― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Thursday, 12 November 2015 14:41 (eight years ago) link
ill post some links when im not on my phone hurting
this is a pretty terrible idea imo. why not just have a negative income tax? why waste money sending checks to middle class & above? also i don't think a lot of proponents of ubi realize you would have to cut other spending to afford it (if it's a basic income that gives someone w no market income a decent living); it's like a (left) libertarian policy (Milton Friedman advocated it!) which isn't nec a bad thing, but a lot of casual proponents these days just add it on top of their pile of govt spending
the laziness thing isn't a lie, it would reduce labor supply. but that's the point? and any proponent of ubi should account for some supply response, you can't just confidently say people won't react to unconditionally not having to work to make a living
― flopson, Thursday, 12 November 2015 23:33 (eight years ago) link
yeah flopson i would love some good args
― j., Thursday, 12 November 2015 23:36 (eight years ago) link
I frequently explain my support for UBI by just asking "aren't there some people you'd rather pay to stay home?"
― El Tomboto, Friday, 13 November 2015 00:12 (eight years ago) link
This is remarkably effective
― El Tomboto, Friday, 13 November 2015 00:13 (eight years ago) link
lol
― flopson, Friday, 13 November 2015 00:32 (eight years ago) link
basic, income
― dead (Lamp), Friday, 13 November 2015 00:34 (eight years ago) link
Just watch bridge over kwai its all in there
― MONKEY had been BUMMED by the GHOST of the late prancing paedophile (darraghmac), Friday, 13 November 2015 00:36 (eight years ago) link
I still think there's something about being industrious that people need. Or at least a unit does. I'm not sure if the family can fulfill that role anymore for a society. If enough money is circulating of course who knows how industrious people might end up being, or how different the definition of the word industrious might end up being.
― rap is dad (it's a boy!), Friday, 13 November 2015 00:41 (eight years ago) link
In my estimation - somebody should do the research, but it's probably impossible for more than one reason:1. there are a frightening number of white collar salaried employees who do basically nothing more than commute, badge in, make meetings, badge out, and commute.2. there are a frightening number of creative, talented people who waste colossal slices of their lives just scraping to make rent in the service industry.
I'd like to send them both home with UBI - it's hard to see how they would end up being less productive that they are today.
― El Tomboto, Friday, 13 November 2015 00:56 (eight years ago) link
Srs ring of truth there
― MONKEY had been BUMMED by the GHOST of the late prancing paedophile (darraghmac), Friday, 13 November 2015 01:04 (eight years ago) link
I think a lot of people in group 1 probably don't want to admit to themselves that they are in group 1
― iatee, Friday, 13 November 2015 01:06 (eight years ago) link
cross-reference with boss thread
― k3vin k., Friday, 13 November 2015 01:13 (eight years ago) link
group 1 would be...interesting...it's probably easier to accept that you're not a productive white collar worker than that you're not creative or talented
― rap is dad (it's a boy!), Friday, 13 November 2015 01:14 (eight years ago) link
There's a lot more ppl imagine themselves in group 2 I'd reckon. Also cross ref to management thread.
― MONKEY had been BUMMED by the GHOST of the late prancing paedophile (darraghmac), Friday, 13 November 2015 01:49 (eight years ago) link
you can only accept 1 w/ the help of the facade that the 1-life lets you hide in
― j., Friday, 13 November 2015 02:00 (eight years ago) link
White collar privilege
― MONKEY had been BUMMED by the GHOST of the late prancing paedophile (darraghmac), Friday, 13 November 2015 02:02 (eight years ago) link
the pre-condition of a facade is something i've read about
― rap is dad (it's a boy!), Friday, 13 November 2015 02:09 (eight years ago) link
Well yeah you wanna make sure it lasts through the tough winters around here
― MONKEY had been BUMMED by the GHOST of the late prancing paedophile (darraghmac), Friday, 13 November 2015 02:13 (eight years ago) link
i could be so industrious at things where i would never be paid
i already was for 7 years, it's called ONLINE FILM CRITICISM.
also whoring
― skateboards are the new combover (Dr Morbius), Friday, 13 November 2015 02:13 (eight years ago) link
interview with the guy who designed the finland natural experiment. seems to have been widely misreported (it is not a universal basic income, they're testing it out on ~100,000 people) so read this if you read anything about it. super interesting & exciting
http://www.fastcoexist.com/3052595/how-finlands-exciting-basic-income-experiment-will-work-and-what-we-can-learn-from-it
― flopson, Monday, 7 December 2015 22:27 (eight years ago) link
bring it
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/12/americas-need-for-a-family-allowance/420123/?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link
― reggie (qualmsley), Tuesday, 15 December 2015 12:43 (eight years ago) link
From the Capitalism C/D thread
http://blog.ycombinator.com/basic-income
50 years from now, I think it will seem ridiculous that we used fear of not being able to eat as a way to motivate people. I also think that it’s impossible to truly have equality of opportunity without some version of guaranteed income. And I think that, combined with innovation driving down the cost of having a great life, by doing something like this we could eventually make real progress towards eliminating poverty.
Hallelujah
― service desk hardman (El Tomboto), Thursday, 28 January 2016 02:52 (eight years ago) link
this is certainly an unexpected development
― lag∞n, Thursday, 28 January 2016 16:34 (eight years ago) link
kudos to them
i think basic income is a fantastic idea whose time has come and i agree that we might see it in our lifetimes but i'm not sure why i should be excited about Y Combinator trying to fund a study of it?
― Mordy, Thursday, 28 January 2016 16:36 (eight years ago) link
So it would be good to answer some of the theoretical questions now. Do people sit around and play video games, or do they create new things? Are people happy and fulfilled? Do people, without the fear of not being able to eat, accomplish far more and benefit society far more? And do recipients, on the whole, create more economic value than they receive? (Questions about how a program like this would affect overall cost of living are beyond our scope, but obviously important.)
this is still some extremely inhumane captain of industry ass thinking tho tbf
― lag∞n, Thursday, 28 January 2016 16:36 (eight years ago) link
this is good tho
― lag∞n, Thursday, 28 January 2016 16:37 (eight years ago) link
― Mordy, Thursday, January 28, 2016 11:36 AM (58 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
you can be excited by like whatever you want i guess
― lag∞n, Thursday, 28 January 2016 16:38 (eight years ago) link
i disagree. first if basic income is going to work politically we're going to need to demolish the randian idea that communism makes ppl lazy and the only way to do that is disprove it. second even w advanced technology society is still going to require a certain level of productivity from its citizens. if food + shelter eg are extremely cheap than the reciprocal productivity from citizens will be much smaller to balance, but you can't give out more than your society produces? xxp
― Mordy, Thursday, 28 January 2016 16:38 (eight years ago) link
why are you excited by it?
― Mordy, Thursday, 28 January 2016 16:39 (eight years ago) link
i disagree. first if basic income is going to work politically we're going to need to demolish the randian idea that communism makes ppl lazy and the only way to do that is disprove it.
that's what they're gonna study, smarty pants
― a (waterface), Thursday, 28 January 2016 16:40 (eight years ago) link
yes correct.
― Mordy, Thursday, 28 January 2016 16:41 (eight years ago) link
(that post was a response to "this is still some extremely inhumane captain of industry ass thinking tho tbf")
something can be necessary politically and also be inhumane in fact they often go hand in hand
― lag∞n, Thursday, 28 January 2016 16:42 (eight years ago) link
it's not inhumane to set out to disprove a toxic idea
― Mordy, Thursday, 28 January 2016 16:43 (eight years ago) link
well i guess depends on if youre looking at this from a human rights stand point or just a cool economic widget pov not that either of those is wrong per say but just that paragraph has some some certain assumptions baked in and i dont think its exactly asking does communism make people lazy anyway, also obvs people will work and "contribute to society" less under basic income which is part of the assumption of the machines are taking our jobs in the first place, which im not at all convinced is true anyway fwiw
― lag∞n, Thursday, 28 January 2016 16:50 (eight years ago) link
i mean a lot of people work in order to play video games already def some of them will just play video games
― lag∞n, Thursday, 28 January 2016 16:51 (eight years ago) link
i dont know if communism makes ppl lazy it def makes them toil futilely which is one reason i dont think we shd have communism
― lag∞n, Thursday, 28 January 2016 16:54 (eight years ago) link
no one has ever really tried a low regulation high service economy but i think it cld be right for the USA! lets give it a shot folks
― lag∞n, Thursday, 28 January 2016 16:56 (eight years ago) link
Do people, without the fear of not being able to eat, accomplish far more and benefit society far more? And do recipients, on the whole, create more economic value than they receive?
Imo a better question would be "Do people suffer less?"
― If authoritarianism is Romania's ironing board, then (in orbit), Thursday, 28 January 2016 17:02 (eight years ago) link
but aside cost, how do supporters of UBI envision it becoming politically feasible given that 1) people get to vote 2) people don't like their taxes being given to other people unconditionally
― flopson, Thursday, 28 January 2016 17:09 (eight years ago) link
also the OG basic income/negative income tax idea was proposed as a way to replace the entire welfare state, otherwise it's not affordable. is that what yall itt want?
― flopson, Thursday, 28 January 2016 17:10 (eight years ago) link
there was a hilariously bad thing in jacobin about ubi written by some sociologist grad student this week that seriously said 'if we had a UBI, we could go on strike all the time' lol
― flopson, Thursday, 28 January 2016 17:11 (eight years ago) link
My theory is that there's a large enough unemployment / low wage crisis from automation that a radical policy shift becomes feasible. I don't know how likely this is - seems like we can always find jobs for ppl.
― Mordy, Thursday, 28 January 2016 17:12 (eight years ago) link
A wealth tax (2% over $50 million, 3% over a billion) could fund a $80/month UBI, a 20% VAT could fund a $800 UBI. So while a wealth tax would be more progressive on the tax side, when taking both sides into account the VAT UBI would cut poverty more. Might as well do both though— James Medlock (@jdcmedlock) September 26, 2020
^ btw caek if u don't already, this account is a must-follow for left public finance. kinda like matt bruenig without the constant political hot takes that get him cancelled every other week
― flopson, Saturday, 24 October 2020 22:05 (three years ago) link
wow, great post flopson
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Saturday, 24 October 2020 22:08 (three years ago) link
thx trace :)
btw, the saez zucman BPEA piece i linked to is probably the best single thing to read on wealth taxes imho (and hopefully largely accessible)
― flopson, Saturday, 24 October 2020 22:16 (three years ago) link
thank you! that makes sense.
the nordics get huge government revenues with broad-based consumption taxes and VATs. technically speaking these taxes are regressive (since poor people spend a larger share of their income on consumption than the rich), but that regressivity can easily be netted out by a progressive structure in other parts of the tax code
the can, but are they in practice? how?
SWF seems to me to be a good way to get tax-phobic USA to get on board with redistributing wealth
seems like this is demonstrably true given the existence proof of alaska.
i actually followed medlock this week ironically (i am a proposition 13 crank.)
― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Sunday, 25 October 2020 03:31 (three years ago) link
alaska a bit of a weird case since they didn't have to raise taxes to buy the SWF, it was just the money from alaska's oil industry. in the kind of SWF the people's policy project are proposing, the government would have to pay the value of the stocks in the first place, which would cost $$$
in the nordics, a combo of transfers + increasing other progressive taxes; making income tax more progressive, boosting inheritance tax, paying for universal programs, etc.
― flopson, Sunday, 25 October 2020 03:44 (three years ago) link
anita baker’s on board
SomeGoodNews*UBI https://t.co/M1pvb7wmGH— Anita Baker (@IAMANITABAKER) January 14, 2021
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 14 January 2021 01:14 (three years ago) link
ok Jack but which girl?
― maf you one two (maffew12), Thursday, 14 January 2021 01:21 (three years ago) link
Lol. jack seems the least bad of big tech ceos maybe
― map, Thursday, 14 January 2021 03:42 (three years ago) link
https://patrickcollison.com/ is probably less bad
― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Thursday, 14 January 2021 03:53 (three years ago) link
i like pat c
― flopson, Thursday, 14 January 2021 04:42 (three years ago) link
No Jack is a Nazi sympathizer
― Canon in Deez (silby), Thursday, 14 January 2021 05:18 (three years ago) link
He seems like he might be ecofash
― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Thursday, 14 January 2021 05:19 (three years ago) link
He seems like he might be a) an ideological idiot and b) an idiot
either that or for sure a nazi
― shivers me timber (sic), Thursday, 14 January 2021 05:31 (three years ago) link
luckily he'll still have 2.6 billion to see him through the rough times.
― ledge, Thursday, 14 January 2021 08:35 (three years ago) link
who says that he will actually use the money to provide basic income to poor people? He only says he will "shift the focus" ... like he could follow the example of his buddy at Salesforce and give $30 million to a well-endowed university to "study" UBI
― sarahell, Thursday, 14 January 2021 19:51 (three years ago) link
I know this is means-testy but if there was ever a group to single out for BI, it’s foster children.https://theappeal.org/the-lab/report/guaranteed-income-for-kids-transitioning-out-of-foster-care/
― DJI, Saturday, 6 February 2021 17:10 (three years ago) link
pilot program just launched in St. Paulhttps://www.stpaul.gov/departments/mayors-office/peoples-prosperity-guaranteed-income-pilot#:~:text=The%20City%20of%20Saint%20Paul,of%20up%20to%2018%20months.
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 6 February 2021 17:13 (three years ago) link
these people appear to have worked it outhttps://livingincome.org.uk
― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 13 December 2022 00:15 (one year ago) link
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jun/04/universal-basic-income-of-1600-pounds-a-month-to-be-trialled-in-england
― Tracer Hand, Sunday, 4 June 2023 22:01 (ten months ago) link
1600 pounds of what?
I'm sorry.
― dan selzer, Monday, 5 June 2023 01:40 (ten months ago) link
churned butter. it’s radical but we’re living in extreme times
― Tracer Hand, Monday, 5 June 2023 07:53 (ten months ago) link
East Finchley?!
― nashwan, Monday, 5 June 2023 10:29 (ten months ago) link
there isn't much to be learned about what impact ubi would have on society by paying it to 30 people, it needs to be nationally trialled, ya bunch of tight gits.
― calzino, Monday, 5 June 2023 10:39 (ten months ago) link
i need all the details before i relocate to Jarrow
― two grills one tap (Noodle Vague), Monday, 5 June 2023 10:44 (ten months ago) link
at least it would cover a week's rent for a box room with no sink in East Finchley
― calzino, Monday, 5 June 2023 10:56 (ten months ago) link
it's going to have a different psychological impact on the recipients than a national ubi rollout would. With them knowing they are part of a small and quite lucky sample group. Their mentality is going to be that of prize winners. Wahey, I'm going to the bookies and the pub every day this week.
― calzino, Monday, 5 June 2023 11:02 (ten months ago) link
Pretty rough if you sign up for the trial and they stick you in the control group!!
― Tracer Hand, Monday, 5 June 2023 11:07 (ten months ago) link
"Sorry, sir, you're getting the placebo."
― sayonara, capybara (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, 5 June 2023 12:11 (ten months ago) link
confirmation on the statement that 1600 HASN'T been credited to their account every month might cause them to have a very negative attitude
― calzino, Monday, 5 June 2023 12:19 (ten months ago) link
Pretty small sample group I thought.
Also, in the end this will just be another piece of data ppl can wave around to show that it's a good idea while the govt answers "no", right?
― Daniel_Rf, Monday, 5 June 2023 13:22 (ten months ago) link
yup, pretty much like the other trials we've seen
― Nhex, Monday, 5 June 2023 13:32 (ten months ago) link
a fascinating waste of time trying to evidence UBI when the counter arguments will all involve red faced journalists shouting about the workshy and magic money trees and the counter arguments will be successful
― two grills one tap (Noodle Vague), Monday, 5 June 2023 13:45 (ten months ago) link
any idea that you can convince the UK state of is probably not an idea worth having
― two grills one tap (Noodle Vague), Monday, 5 June 2023 13:47 (ten months ago) link
The fact that the UK is considering a trial of UBI surprises me.
I wonder if the aim is to try it so they can kill it off and say it has been discredited.
Or maybe the internal politics of government are more complicated than that.
I believe that on balance, UBI would be a good thing and could improve our society.
― the pinefox, Monday, 5 June 2023 14:42 (ten months ago) link
steady on there
― serving bundt (sic), Monday, 5 June 2023 15:03 (ten months ago) link
I think this latest trial is being run by the Autonomy think tank, so it's not govt sponsored. There has been a three-year pilot of 500 care leavers running in Wales since last summer however. Think it could feasibly be introduces in some limited way by one of the devolved authorities.
― Piedie Gimbel, Monday, 5 June 2023 15:10 (ten months ago) link
Heartbreaking that every time we get media attention for basic income work, the inbox fills up with people desperate to be included in any trial – along with accounts of how a cruel, conditional welfare system has let them down— Jack Kellam (@Jack_Kellam_) June 5, 2023
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 5 June 2023 15:20 (ten months ago) link
for real
― two grills one tap (Noodle Vague), Monday, 5 June 2023 15:24 (ten months ago) link
Everyone is talking about a universal basic income today. I think it’s a bad idea, and that we need Universal Basic Services instead (UBS) - where we have free education, healthcare & transport, alongside a massive expansion of social housing. From my TED talk last year. pic.twitter.com/8rglnOiBHg— Aaron Bastani (@AaronBastani) June 5, 2023
A rejection of UBI.
But if we can't have UBS, maybe UBI is better than nothing?
― the pinefox, Monday, 5 June 2023 20:43 (ten months ago) link
if ubi is offered as an alternative to basic services, its bad
― slai gorgeous-alexander (m bison), Tuesday, 6 June 2023 02:20 (ten months ago) link
It only makes sense as part of a broader network of services and controls on rents and prices, yeah
― two grills one tap (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 6 June 2023 07:01 (ten months ago) link