"Hipster" as pejorative.

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haha gareth that "jealousy" argument is bullshit and you know it

i havent been associated with my hips so much since i've stopped dancing

jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:34 (11 years ago) Permalink

I think JtN was using it in the arms war sense. Constantly having an ear to what the guys who thinks they're cool are saying and doing repetitively and staying one step ahead. Avoiding clichéd opinions and tastes. But this itself becomes a kind of cliché.

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:35 (11 years ago) Permalink

yeah, what is a hipster - someone who is clued up? cynical or too self aware? fakery? trendy?

jel -- (jel), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:35 (11 years ago) Permalink

thinks = think

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:36 (11 years ago) Permalink

i am never sure what is meant by the word, especially since "hipster" musical taste and the musical tastes here overlap a bit, even if we aren't all hipsters here. for example, in the usa, "original pirate material" was released by Vice and it has been listed as a cd that hipsters listen to. but i have the album, and i don't think i am a hipster. actually, i am pretty sure i am not.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:36 (11 years ago) Permalink

Must consult lyrics to Zero. BRB.

jel -- (jel), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:36 (11 years ago) Permalink

nope no insight in Zero, sorry.

jel -- (jel), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:38 (11 years ago) Permalink

In the UK at least, The Streets are now far too '12 CD owner' to be a hipster thing. And the Garage for indie kids jibe has stuck.

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:40 (11 years ago) Permalink

no one would ever admit to being one, though we'd all like for others to think of us as one

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:43 (11 years ago) Permalink

hipster (1941) "person who is keenly aware of the new and stylish," from hip "up-to-date," attested from 1904 in black slang, probably a variant of hep, though it is recorded four years earlier. 

From Online Etymology Dictionary.

Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:43 (11 years ago) Permalink

So in the context of prewar black culture, would "hipster" have been used in the pejorative?

Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:44 (11 years ago) Permalink

yes the streets are most certainly not hipster!

ok, i was talking with an ilx on aim about this the other week, and i think we both agreed that, for us at least, there was a simultaneous disparagement of the seemingly closed world of the hipster, with a desire to live a similar life, to be in williamsburg or whatever, because it seems different to what we have, but then a realisation that we couldnt be one, because we couldnt be like those lipstickandcigarettes.com people even if we tried. but why couldnt we?

also...

http://www.norfolkwindmills.com/nathan.html (written back in 2000, so excuse the rubbishness)

gareth (gareth), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:45 (11 years ago) Permalink

Let's get past the contemporary usage of "hipster" for a moment and think historically.

Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:46 (11 years ago) Permalink

i am moving to greenpoint so that i can tell everyone that williamsburg is for poseurs. then i will be a hipper hipster than other hipsters. it will be grebt. if greenpoin is lame by the time that i move to the city then i will got to bushwick or east flatbush...

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:48 (11 years ago) Permalink

though we'd all like for others to think of us as one

I wouldn't. Cause most people who use the term either misunderstand the nature of a hipster or else understand it only too well (the former = most people in the media, the latter = Jerry the Nipper).

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:49 (11 years ago) Permalink

The problem with using the term "hipster" (contemporary, sorry A) is that it carries with it the implication that the people are only hip because they aspire to be -- that they forced and elevated themselves into a social category by adapting and doing the "right" things. But this simply isn't always true: on some level loads of them are doing whatever it is they're doing because they actually like it, and reducing the whole thing to sneering at "hipsters" is basically the equivalent of the whole "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!" complaint.

What tends to bother me is when people act intimidated by "hipsters" (e.g. "Boy, I feel really uncool in this crowd," a comment I heard from two different people last night). So I was thinking about this quite a bit: anyone can be or at least come off as a hipster (this is the whole sneering complaint, right -- that it can be earned, that it's something one works toward or aspires to?), and if you don't, well ... that's not a failure in some hip sweepstakes but a set of simple decisions about what you like and who you want to be. So I'd prefer to see people who don't consider themselves hipsters stand up for those choices -- not cave and say "these people are cooler than me."

This is also why I'm amused by people who always use the sneery-pejorative "hipster" -- on some level it says you believe these people actually are cooler than you and that you're bothered by that!

nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:54 (11 years ago) Permalink

But obviously the root of all that is the sense that "hipsters" are forever looking down on everyone else for being not-hip. So why are so many people so affected by that potential looking-down? Why does it have any purchase whatsoever?

nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:56 (11 years ago) Permalink

"HIPSTER" comes from the Opium dens of yore, where customers would lie on their hips. No bull.

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:57 (11 years ago) Permalink

(Okay, three posts in I see what I'm getting at: people actively defer to hipsters in matters of taste, and thus they prize and fear the hipsters' opinions about them. They should stop that.)

nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:58 (11 years ago) Permalink

Actually I think there is a talent to being trendy (in the non-pejorative sense of "following trends, staying up-to-date") that I can admire without irony. I'd like to believe, but don't actually, that it's just a matter of choices I've made that I am not a hipster.

Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:59 (11 years ago) Permalink

This is also why I'm amused by people who always use the sneery-pejorative "hipster" -- on some level it says you believe these people actually are cooler than you and that you're bothered by that!

A lot of people think 'cool' is shallow and thus to be mistrusted (but maybe resented too).

Differences between being 'cool', 'trendy', 'hip' and 'a hipster'?

I get intimidated sometimes in Hoxton bars or whatever where the clientele look trendier and more confident than I do, but I know that they mostly would be v.uncool if you actually talked to them. Certainly not hipsters anyway. Hipsters have to know stuff. Though I'm not you could be one and look a total state. Maybe, though.

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:59 (11 years ago) Permalink

Ah, but the importance of staying up to date style-wise is arguably important, as Billy Joel once croaked:

"And if you can't understand why your world is so dead,
why you've got to keep in style and feed your head
Well you're 21 and still your mother makes your bed,
And that's too long"

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:03 (11 years ago) Permalink

Amateurist you are a hipster. Everyone ever on ILX apart from maybe GALE is a hipster.

It's one of those things like "middle class" -- everyone thinks they're pretty hip but not an actualy HIPSTER like THOSE people over there. Those people, in turn, think the same damn thing right up through supermodel egomaniacs, who are in thrall to the ultra-square and their ability to live normal rational lives.

But by any serious measure of "hipster," pretty much everyone here is one.

nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:05 (11 years ago) Permalink

I refuse to waste any precious time figuring out what is 'fresh' 'new' or 'hot', as in a year's time or less it will be 'stale' 'old' or 'cold'. If no one's wearing, buying, reading, listening, or watching something in 5 years time, doesn't it show a lack of quality (whatever that is)

Oops (Oops), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:07 (11 years ago) Permalink

what about monSTERS?
Oooh, they're worse than hipSTERS

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:07 (11 years ago) Permalink

Amateurist you are a hipster. Everyone ever on ILX apart from maybe GALE is a hipster.

No, I'm just a weirdo.

Christine "Green Leafy Dragon" Indigo (cindigo), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:12 (11 years ago) Permalink

i agree with nabiscos first 3 posts, as usual he got it down EXACT

not so sure about the 'everyone here is a hipster' thing, but "i dont care about whats cool right now etc etc" is usually the hipsters trademark, because, like, if you were a hipster you wouldnt admit to that right?

gareth (gareth), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:13 (11 years ago) Permalink

No, it's just that you're likely to have different criteria for 'cool' than they do.

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:15 (11 years ago) Permalink

I guess it depends on whether you're obeying a widely shared idea of what's cool or whether that idea is more hermetic. Is hipsterism a social quality or is there a such thing as Platonic hipsterism?

Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:16 (11 years ago) Permalink

Kismet N. + Amateurist!

Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:16 (11 years ago) Permalink

My grammar was not cool.

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:17 (11 years ago) Permalink

is it possible to be a populist hipster?

jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:19 (11 years ago) Permalink

Hefner?
Or is he just cool and not hip? I really need to think this through

Oops (Oops), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:22 (11 years ago) Permalink

i always thought/used hipster as a patronising synonym of trendy, ie a follower, someone who is up to date but only looking at other people's clocks, y'know topshop without the kokosolaki endorsement

the most agreeable aspect of this used is that while said victim would still dislike being defined as cool maan (keep yr guard up) he/she might slightly prefer being called a hipster than a trendy... thus confirming their hipsterness!!!

zemko (bob), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:22 (11 years ago) Permalink

Of course, jess! (that's what ILM used to be about, isn't it?)

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:22 (11 years ago) Permalink

zing!

jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:23 (11 years ago) Permalink

hoho the joke's on him not me! sigh

zemko (bob), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:23 (11 years ago) Permalink

this is like one of those "atom in the tail of a dog" things isnt it?

jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:25 (11 years ago) Permalink

anyway basically the hipster level is nowhere near the top. it's gola shoes and airport bags zemko (bob), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:25 (11 years ago) Permalink

uhoh i didn't close somehting

zemko (bob), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:26 (11 years ago) Permalink

s'ok

zemko (bob), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:26 (11 years ago) Permalink

So...Hipster= shallowness, fashion-obsessed, focuses on appearances

Oops (Oops), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:29 (11 years ago) Permalink

but not very good at it

zemko (bob), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:38 (11 years ago) Permalink

so, oops, what you're saying is the hipsterism is anti-rockism then?

gareth (gareth), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:40 (11 years ago) Permalink

don't know what anti-rockism is, but we seem to be saying that hipsters are into a 'scene' more than music. Their whole lifestyle (what they do, eat, read, listen to, etc.) is just a fashion statement.

Oops (Oops), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:49 (11 years ago) Permalink

To me "hip" is kind of all right, that just means you know how to have fun and you're not overly populist about it and you're also not too concerned with trends either...you just like what you like, basically. So what if something is deemed "rockist," that's just someone trying to impose their tastes on you, to cut you down to size. To be hip is to be relaxed about what you like and to not take it too seriously, it's just popular music anyway. But being a hipster is making a cult out of it, and unless you're really a musician who gets obsessed with certain things for the purpose of understanding it--doing it--being obsessive about it beyond your own personal enjoyment of it is a drag, which is not hip. I know I'm stating the obvious and I risk being branded not hip to say it...so maybe I'm not hip after all...

Edd Hurt (delta ed), Monday, 10 February 2003 19:03 (11 years ago) Permalink

*Ahem* Was "hipster" coined as a pejorative?

Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 10 February 2003 19:07 (11 years ago) Permalink

More like a fashion agreement...

I don't think there's any correlation with being "cool" and being a "hipster".

Does discussing the definition of hipster qualify you as one? Not me, I'm here for scholarly purposes only.

What do people who are overly populist about having fun do for fun?

I don't know if you're hip or not, Edd, but you're definitely OTM.

Stuart, Monday, 10 February 2003 19:08 (11 years ago) Permalink

No, Amateurist.
Hipster was a pretty groovy thing to be. This was before there were alternatives to alternative lifestyles and before there was 5000 magazines and websites telling you their opinion of cool. Almost anyone who wasn't mainstream and 'square' was a hipster. Dig it.

Digable Planets used it positively as recently as 1993.

Oops (Oops), Monday, 10 February 2003 19:11 (11 years ago) Permalink

amateurist i think it was probbly coined as a positive word — ppl who are in the know — but IMMEDIATELY INSTANTLY also became a diss

the word "hipicat" means something relevant in wolof: sadly i forget what

mark s (mark s), Monday, 10 February 2003 19:12 (11 years ago) Permalink

With the internet, we all have a chance to show that we know more than each other.

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Friday, 24 January 2014 04:23 (8 months ago) Permalink

it seems shitty that adorno thinks he can size people up based on their appearances and what books are on their shelves. isn't this what capitalism does? shouldn't marxism view individuals more holistically, and not as alienated embodiments of certain social types/marketing demographics? or is the point of adorno that under capitalism people simply *are* these stupid roles they fall into, voluntarily or not? what's that he said: "wrong life cannot be lived rightly."

tɹi.ʃɪp (Treeship), Friday, 24 January 2014 04:28 (8 months ago) Permalink

The thing is, Adorno was always right, but it didn't make him any less of a dick

Evil Juice Box Man (Moodles), Friday, 24 January 2014 04:30 (8 months ago) Permalink

treezy

"Their sole ambition consists of finding their way in the accepted canon, of saying the right thing. The outsider status of the initiates is an illusion and mere waiting-time. It would be giving them too much credit to call them renegades; they wear overlarge horn-rimmed glasses on their mediocre faces, solely to better pass themselves off as “brilliant” to themselves and to others in the general competition. They are already exactly like them. The subjective precondition of opposition, the non-normalized judgment, goes extinct, while its trappings continue to be carried out as a group ritual."

j., Friday, 24 January 2014 04:33 (8 months ago) Permalink

yeah, he is saying they are posers. but who are "they", how does he identify them, and how can he be so confident that this is what they think and how they see themselves in the world? i think people can be trendy and share interests and sensibilities and hairstyles with a peer group -- even one that superficially seems "avant garde" -- and not necessarily give their subjectivity completely over to the bland, conformist dictates of this groups. i guess he is saying that the literati are not really opposed to a society in which they in some sense flourish, and i guess that's right. but he is saying more than this: he is dehumanizing them by saying they are all "exactly alike."

tɹi.ʃɪp (Treeship), Friday, 24 January 2014 04:45 (8 months ago) Permalink

I think you really need to read Adorno in light of the fact he lived through fascism, Hitler, Stalin, and the major rise of post-war consumer culture.

^ enlightening post (sarahell), Friday, 24 January 2014 05:28 (8 months ago) Permalink

Those bolded parts are what stop Adorno from being like a lot of similar but lesser people imho – for example, given we're talking about the use of hipster as pejorative, how many people who so use the word are really questioning people's 'ambitions' or think we should fight to maintain a 'non-normalized judgment'?

cardamon, Friday, 24 January 2014 05:54 (8 months ago) Permalink

And also @ Treeship whatever condemnation he's making of his 'intellectuals' he is still viewing them as damaged victims of capitalism - there's a sympathy there, which perhaps isn't clear in his excellently bitchy quotes here

cardamon, Friday, 24 January 2014 05:56 (8 months ago) Permalink

I have tried before to define hipsterism as a kind of process whereby authenticity is ironized (which is to say authenticity is deployed as a signifier). didn't really work though. But it's like this paradox of knowing authenticity perhaps.

ryan, Friday, 24 January 2014 14:17 (8 months ago) Permalink

the word "pose(u)rs" presupposes a particular authentic identity being mimicked that i don't think Adorno thought existed

schlager top (Noodle Vague), Friday, 24 January 2014 14:24 (8 months ago) Permalink

ya, unlike the hipster-hater of today Adorno couldn't have felt he was above receiving such a critique, though he's in no position to make it of himself. A position that perhaps isn't always evident from his caustic haughtiness.

Merdeyeux, Friday, 24 January 2014 14:57 (8 months ago) Permalink

I think it's also easy to forget, as he generally reads to us as a very modern thinker, that most of his best known cultural criticism and analysis is distinctly of an era prior to the revolution that field had in the '60s. I think the later pieces like those in Quasi una Fantasia are a bit more measured if not any more positive in spirit. That people can still find those early analyses interesting and useful is remarkable in itself.

Merdeyeux, Friday, 24 January 2014 15:11 (8 months ago) Permalink

Theres a collection of adorno essays titled "the culture industry". Is that a good place to start with him? I don't want to dive into negative dialectics or dialectic of enlightenment right now, but adorno keeps coming up more and more in conversation and i feel i should know a bit more about him. I am sympathetic, btw, to his left wing antipopulism from what i know about him; i was just put off by the dismissiveness in those quotes and wondered where it might be coming from.

tɹi.ʃɪp (Treeship), Friday, 24 January 2014 15:34 (8 months ago) Permalink

even though I semi-defended them there I think it's a bit unfortunate that the culture industry stuff is so predominant in a lot of people's image of Adorno, no doubt there's a lot of brilliant thought in those essays but it's shrouded in a very singular and what now seems myopic worldview. I don't know him especially well but I'd recommend Aesthetic Theory, though if anything it's even tougher and more uncompromising than the two you mention.

Merdeyeux, Friday, 24 January 2014 15:41 (8 months ago) Permalink

I recently read a good secondary source on Adorno called "Art and Enlightenment" by David Roberts. Was actually kind of blown away by it. A bit older. 1991 or so.

ryan, Friday, 24 January 2014 15:46 (8 months ago) Permalink

aesthetic theory is not what anyone would call a readable book.

the essays in critical models, on the other hand, are fairly approachable (some were even written for radio presentation).

reading minima moralia would not be the best way to get a clear picture of adorno's 'doctrines', but its intermittent, quiet personal elements might surprise you.

j., Friday, 24 January 2014 16:07 (8 months ago) Permalink

Yeah, Minima Moralia is the thing of his I've found most readable – short (couple of paragraphs) thoughts about things. Every one of them made me think about stuff. Best place to begin, I'd say.

He's got a good essay called 'Commitment' too.

cardamon, Friday, 24 January 2014 17:49 (8 months ago) Permalink

I'll pick up minimamoralia tonight. I am intrigued by the quiet, personal elements. Those are my favorite parts of books.

tɹi.ʃɪp (Treeship), Friday, 24 January 2014 17:53 (8 months ago) Permalink

Thx

tɹi.ʃɪp (Treeship), Friday, 24 January 2014 17:53 (8 months ago) Permalink

Philosophy of Modern Music is also a good one, especially if you are a fan of Stravinsky/Schoenberg

Spaghetti Sauce Shampoo (Moodles), Friday, 24 January 2014 18:29 (8 months ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

saw this sweatshirt for sale in target the other day. can i just...

tɹi.ʃɪp (Treeship), Wednesday, 12 February 2014 04:49 (8 months ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

Inevitable product of Fox News commentators having to live in NYC

Dan I., Friday, 14 March 2014 17:55 (7 months ago) Permalink

There are four states of being in the cannabis society: cool, groovy, hip, and square, in that descending order.

how's life, Friday, 14 March 2014 18:00 (7 months ago) Permalink

http://nypost.com/2014/03/22/the-hipster-war-on-you-how-liberals-use-cool-as-a-weapon/

"Icons of cool like Robert Redford, Mark Zuckerberg, Jesse James and Yoko Ono get shredded in the book" - Mark Zuckerberg AND Yoko? What an iconoclast!!!

Herbie Handcock (Murgatroid), Saturday, 22 March 2014 22:44 (7 months ago) Permalink

jesse james the kinda nazi-ish biker?

how's life, Saturday, 22 March 2014 23:43 (7 months ago) Permalink

"Cool kids party it up at the Coachella Music Festival."

coops all on coops tbh (crüt), Sunday, 23 March 2014 00:25 (6 months ago) Permalink

^^^ predictably, use of the word "hipsters" marks the nadir of this terrible song. (don't worry, it happens in the first verse)

Many American citizens are literally paralyzed by (bernard snowy), Sunday, 23 March 2014 03:21 (6 months ago) Permalink

okay lmfao at this appalling cynicism:

How do the cool enslave you? By convincing you that:
- If you don't agree with them no one will like you.
- If you don't follow them you will miss out on life.
- If you don't listen to them you will die a lonely loser

How do you vanquish the cool and discover your own true self? Read this book.

Many American citizens are literally paralyzed by (bernard snowy), Sunday, 23 March 2014 03:23 (6 months ago) Permalink

it's like, yes, okay, when I was middle school I used to worry that I was literally retarded, and "a great conspiracy / Of books and people" had been constructed with the aim of making me *think* I was normal while everybody secretly laughed at the ape parading around in human clothing using the telepathic that I was also worried everyone but me possessed--fortunately I aged out of these fears before anybody gave me a book deal

Many American citizens are literally paralyzed by (bernard snowy), Sunday, 23 March 2014 03:27 (6 months ago) Permalink

Three cheers for hipsters, hip hip hooray!

très hip (Treeship), Sunday, 23 March 2014 03:34 (6 months ago) Permalink

Fast-forward to today, when, writes Gutfeld, "the Labor Department reports that only 47% of Americans have a full-time job. That’s because it’s hard to get full-time work as a maker of artisanal tricycles."

okay so this book appears to have been written by someone whose knowledge of the world is limited to the business+style sections of the new york times

Many American citizens are literally paralyzed by (bernard snowy), Sunday, 23 March 2014 03:42 (6 months ago) Permalink

... and you wanna call *me* the hipster!

Many American citizens are literally paralyzed by (bernard snowy), Sunday, 23 March 2014 03:43 (6 months ago) Permalink

Now a few groovy artisanal types are sounding the alarm about vaccines

yes, it is the """"cool"""" hipster people doing this, they are doing it to be cool, like noted hipster jenny mccarthy

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Sunday, 23 March 2014 04:19 (6 months ago) Permalink

it's all the same though. anyone who objects to anything about the status quo is the same, no matter the content of their objections. they need to take a chill pill and get with the program. a chill vaccine even.

très hip (Treeship), Sunday, 23 March 2014 05:15 (6 months ago) Permalink

shoot me up

markers, Sunday, 23 March 2014 05:34 (6 months ago) Permalink

does obamacare cover the chill vaccine?

sent from my butt (harbl), Sunday, 23 March 2014 14:12 (6 months ago) Permalink

haha i was coming here to post about this book. looks like a scream!

slam dunk, Sunday, 23 March 2014 23:59 (6 months ago) Permalink

i really love how the american right wing describes every cultural rift as a "war". so fun.

très hip (Treeship), Monday, 24 March 2014 00:06 (6 months ago) Permalink

They like war

sonic thedgehod (albvivertine), Monday, 24 March 2014 00:24 (6 months ago) Permalink


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