what is sexist exactly about the rolling stones' under my thumb?

But putting them in the same league with some of the really vile rap that's out there is really stretching things a bit.

EVERY day is national sexism awareness day! just like earth day! and Christmas!

Hm...ok, maybe not, but I do want some presents.

but a lot of great songs are like this. everyone loves a good psychotic love song, even if they dont like it in real life. the narrator is a cunt, but its still a good song. its just one of those things that cant be helped.

explaining why a song that is entirely about the power dynamics of sexual relationships is "sexist" = making a very concerted effort to miss the point.

all of which is to say, Brooker Buckingham pretty much OTM.

probably 'cause it wasn't a hit. but also maybe 'cause the message of the song isn't "girls are stupid." or inferior. or different. or anything. it's about a particular woman who the singer thinks is a dumb-ass because she can't get over her last boyfriend. or maybe he's just mad because she doesn't love HIM and he takes it out on her by calling her "stupid" ("dumb-ass girl" wouldn't've had the same ring to it). either way, the song would make exactly as much sense if the roles were reversed and it was called "stupid boy."

a classic, by the way.

You're such a beautiful fish
Floppin' on the summer sand
Lookin' for the wave you missed
When another one is close at hand
You're such a stupid girl.

You're such a stupid girl.

I saw you in Mercedes Benz
Practicing self-defense
You got it pretty good I guess
I couldn't see your eyes
You're really stupid, girl.

You're such a stupid girl.

Anyway, I've had this conversation about 1,739 times, and I wouldn't mind having it again, but I do have to go offline. A few thoughts, too condensed:

1. The Rolling Stones self-penned songs from that era tend to be different from all other songs of their time, and most others before or since (incl. "Billie Jean"), in that there's never any attempt to claim that the girl or guy who's getting dumped or dominated deserves what she's getting. In "It's All Over Now," which the Stones didn't write, the girl used to run around with every man in town, spent all his money playing her half-assed game. But tables turn, her turn to cry. In "Under My Thumb" it's as if Mick took an eraser and got rid of the running 'round, the money spent, and anything else that would justify him. (Only exceptions I can think of are "Stupid Girl," which is derogatory in a fairly clichéd way, but not a revenge song, and "Ride On Baby," which seems to be endorse the double standard rather than to nail it: it's one thing to tell a groupie you're not interested, another to tell her that you don't like her 'cause she fucks around, when you yourself fuck around.)

2. Listen in succession to "Heart of Stone," "Lady Jane," "Back Street Girl," "Under My Thumb," "High and Dry" ("Anything I wished for I only had to ask her/I think she found out it was money I was after"), "My Obsession," "Street Fighting Man," "Salt of the Earth," "Brown Sugar." (That's off the top of my head; there are probably a bunch that I'm not thinking of. You might want to include the Kinks' "Sunny Afternoon" and "Waterloo Sunset" as well.) What each of these songs has in common is that the song starts off seeming to be one thing, but then it's as if the camera pulls back to longshot and reveals a second song hidden behind the first. E.g., "Back Street Girl" sounds at the beginning like a love song, a song where the narrator is not making any demands on the loved one ("I don't want you to be high/I don't want you to be down"); you sort of expect "I just wanna make love to you" to be the clincher; instead it's "Don't want you part of my world/Just you be my back street girl," and as it goes on you see with clarity that it's a married man laying down the rules to his mistress, telling her not to come in and muck up his tidy well-to-do life. But in all these songs there's always something in the performance to come in and unclarify the clarity, to pull you in so you're suspended between the two songs, for instance between the love song and the lay-down-the-law song. "Back Street Girl" really sounds like the gorgeous love song it's claiming not to be, "Street Fighting Man" the disturbance that it's claiming is unattainable. Etc.

3. So you might say the form of these songs is: Set you up, pull your legs out from under you, keep moving the floor boards so you never quite find your feet. Of course, you don't have to play; you can nail it all down for yourself and say, "This is sexist" or "This is a critique of sexism," everything in its place and you know where you stand. But why would you want to do that, especially since it requires you to turn off your mind?

I just heard "No Scrubs" again. Still far more sexist than "Under My Thumb."

black girls just want to get fucked all night

The way he says "pet" mostly.

One of my bandmates the other day said he didn't understand why people got so worked up about "Brown Sugar." "Basically," he said, "the song's about Mick wanting to fuck black women. It can't be racist if it's about something racists would disapprove of."

ironclad logic

what is sexist exactly about "he hit me (and it felt like a kiss)"?

"Scarred old slaver know he's doin' alright..."

xp

sallyhemmings.jpg

I read the book "Electric Ladyland," and a good point that was made was that many songs that are considered sexist often aren't. The best test of sexism is to reverse the genders of the subject and the artist and see if the song would still make sense on a cultural level. In the case of "Under My Thumb," it would be a song, sung by a female, about (to quote Wikipedia, since I don't remember the lyrics all that well anymore) the satisfaction of finally having controlled and gained leverage over a previously pushy, dominating partner, which doesn't seem all that bizarre So sexism in music, in their view, is not a power struggle on a personal level, but rather the exploitation of gender roles on a broader scale.

oh pish. That's only true if gender roles exist in a vacuum.

Every time I see your dick I see her cunt in my bed.

Jagger sounds a rather weak character in this song. Like it's taken him years to get in the power position.

It's not the cold, calculating sound of an alpha-male, but that of a loser who's latched on to either a circumstantial personal misfortune or a shady manipulation technique to get one over their partner.

Is there possibly a more sexist song than Rod Stewart's "Tonight's The Night"?

Every song on the first Strangler's album. Except the one about rats.

Which is appallingly rodentist, btw.

The best test of sexism is to reverse the genders of the subject and the artist and see if the song would still make sense on a cultural level.

orly

"Tonight's The Night" isn't sexist at all! How can you hear Stewart's vocal and call it sexist?

oh pish. That's only true if gender roles exist in a vacuum.

It's hardly a foolproof litmus test but at least it exposes the sexism of thinking that any song that happens to fit with traditional gender/relationship roles is automatically sexist.

Maybe he meant "Tonight I'm Yours"? (Or maybe not - I don't know the lyrics to either one, myself.)

xpost

thinking that any song that happens to fit with traditional gender/relationship roles is automatically sexist.

I don't think that at all! I don't think this is about gender roles at all, really. It's about hostility. This "Yeah, bitch, I got you now" vibe. "The squirmin dog whos just had her day," etc. If she's such a bitch, why do you care, Mick?

re: Stewart:

C'mon angel my hearts on fire
Don't deny your man's desire
You'd be a fool to stop this tide
Spread your wings and let me come inside

Well, ok. Seems maybe a touch pushy. It a tip-toe-y subject anyway, taking a girl's virginity. But honestly, it doesn't bother me too much, since so much of the rest or the lyrics are about putting her at ease, lowering the lights, stuff like that. And it's such a pretty song. It's kinda romantic, really.

So you DON'T think the song is sexist then?

"I'm going to fuck you and you're not gonna fight it!"

No, no... he's asking.

So you DON'T think the song is sexist then?

Which song? Under My Thumb, definitely. Tonight's the Night rides a thin line, but comes out on the good side of it.

"You'd be a fool to stop this tide" is a bit more than "pushy," I think.

I still don't think it's sexist. People express hostility towards their significant others and engage in power struggles all the time, but sexism has nothing to do with it.

Yeah, the word "fool" does bother me. But in context, he's trying to say that she'll like it. "It's gonna be alright."

http://oldpoetry.com/opoem/44931-Arthur-Rimbaud-First-Evening

Heard this one yesterday at a bar and remembered how good it is after years of not touching it. Probably a top 10 Rolling Stones' song for me.

Head over heels on those misogynistic marimbas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcgZIz0Fd-w

Love Brian Jones' air marimba

this song's perfect musically. i tuned into it on the radio mid-song and there's just something glorious about the way all the instruments come together. like a beautiful accident.

i have no idea what the hell frank k. was on about upthread, though.

OTM