"Hipster" as pejorative.

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This word seems to be used exclusively as a pejorative here on ILX and elsewhere. 'Twas always thus? Was there a time someone might have proudly flown the hipster flag?

Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:25 (twenty-one years ago) link

Are you suggesting that it should be elevated? Doesn't it *SOUND* ridiculous to you? Wouldn't you wince at the tag if you were branded with it? Isn't it -- at best -- a back-handed compliment?

I think it's the second portion of the word ("ster"....or "sta" if you're 50 Cent) that lends it the deragatory tone.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:30 (twenty-one years ago) link

i think the anti-hipsterism is partly a jealousy, in that often people want to be a hipster, but, for whatever reason, are not. or they want to be perceived a certain way, and are not. to use the term as a perjorative then downgrades the people that they might like to be like?

or, perhaps people think they would be better, ie "if i was a hipster, i wouldnt be pimping undie hip hop and dfa records but tha good shit!"

on the other hand, maybe hipsters are the new jocks?

but, also, who exactly are the hipsters? it seems quite an amorphous description, is it really just beautiful people with asymetric hair? in which case...i think you have your answer

gareth (gareth), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

we shd use another, fonder and more forgiving diminutive, viz "hipkin"?

mark s (mark s), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

ie, is the 'hipster' a straw man?

gareth (gareth), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

tim h to thread!

mark s (mark s), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

What's wrong with being a person who is exceptionally aware of or interested in the latest trends and tastes, especially a devotee of modern jazz?

Lara (Lara), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

Actually scratch the modern jazz bit as there's plenty wrong with that.

Lara (Lara), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

-ster
suff.

One that is associated with, participates in, makes, or does: songster.
One that is: youngster.



Source: The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:33 (twenty-one years ago) link

haha gareth that "jealousy" argument is bullshit and you know it

i havent been associated with my hips so much since i've stopped dancing

jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:34 (twenty-one years ago) link

I think JtN was using it in the arms war sense. Constantly having an ear to what the guys who thinks they're cool are saying and doing repetitively and staying one step ahead. Avoiding clichéd opinions and tastes. But this itself becomes a kind of cliché.

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:35 (twenty-one years ago) link

yeah, what is a hipster - someone who is clued up? cynical or too self aware? fakery? trendy?

jel -- (jel), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:35 (twenty-one years ago) link

thinks = think

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:36 (twenty-one years ago) link

i am never sure what is meant by the word, especially since "hipster" musical taste and the musical tastes here overlap a bit, even if we aren't all hipsters here. for example, in the usa, "original pirate material" was released by Vice and it has been listed as a cd that hipsters listen to. but i have the album, and i don't think i am a hipster. actually, i am pretty sure i am not.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:36 (twenty-one years ago) link

Must consult lyrics to Zero. BRB.

jel -- (jel), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:36 (twenty-one years ago) link

nope no insight in Zero, sorry.

jel -- (jel), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:38 (twenty-one years ago) link

In the UK at least, The Streets are now far too '12 CD owner' to be a hipster thing. And the Garage for indie kids jibe has stuck.

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:40 (twenty-one years ago) link

no one would ever admit to being one, though we'd all like for others to think of us as one

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:43 (twenty-one years ago) link

hipster (1941) "person who is keenly aware of the new and stylish," from hip "up-to-date," attested from 1904 in black slang, probably a variant of hep, though it is recorded four years earlier. 

From Online Etymology Dictionary.

Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:43 (twenty-one years ago) link

So in the context of prewar black culture, would "hipster" have been used in the pejorative?

Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:44 (twenty-one years ago) link

yes the streets are most certainly not hipster!

ok, i was talking with an ilx on aim about this the other week, and i think we both agreed that, for us at least, there was a simultaneous disparagement of the seemingly closed world of the hipster, with a desire to live a similar life, to be in williamsburg or whatever, because it seems different to what we have, but then a realisation that we couldnt be one, because we couldnt be like those lipstickandcigarettes.com people even if we tried. but why couldnt we?

also...

http://www.norfolkwindmills.com/nathan.html (written back in 2000, so excuse the rubbishness)

gareth (gareth), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:45 (twenty-one years ago) link

Let's get past the contemporary usage of "hipster" for a moment and think historically.

Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:46 (twenty-one years ago) link

i am moving to greenpoint so that i can tell everyone that williamsburg is for poseurs. then i will be a hipper hipster than other hipsters. it will be grebt. if greenpoin is lame by the time that i move to the city then i will got to bushwick or east flatbush...

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:48 (twenty-one years ago) link

though we'd all like for others to think of us as one

I wouldn't. Cause most people who use the term either misunderstand the nature of a hipster or else understand it only too well (the former = most people in the media, the latter = Jerry the Nipper).

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:49 (twenty-one years ago) link

The problem with using the term "hipster" (contemporary, sorry A) is that it carries with it the implication that the people are only hip because they aspire to be -- that they forced and elevated themselves into a social category by adapting and doing the "right" things. But this simply isn't always true: on some level loads of them are doing whatever it is they're doing because they actually like it, and reducing the whole thing to sneering at "hipsters" is basically the equivalent of the whole "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!" complaint.

What tends to bother me is when people act intimidated by "hipsters" (e.g. "Boy, I feel really uncool in this crowd," a comment I heard from two different people last night). So I was thinking about this quite a bit: anyone can be or at least come off as a hipster (this is the whole sneering complaint, right -- that it can be earned, that it's something one works toward or aspires to?), and if you don't, well ... that's not a failure in some hip sweepstakes but a set of simple decisions about what you like and who you want to be. So I'd prefer to see people who don't consider themselves hipsters stand up for those choices -- not cave and say "these people are cooler than me."

This is also why I'm amused by people who always use the sneery-pejorative "hipster" -- on some level it says you believe these people actually are cooler than you and that you're bothered by that!

nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:54 (twenty-one years ago) link

But obviously the root of all that is the sense that "hipsters" are forever looking down on everyone else for being not-hip. So why are so many people so affected by that potential looking-down? Why does it have any purchase whatsoever?

nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:56 (twenty-one years ago) link

"HIPSTER" comes from the Opium dens of yore, where customers would lie on their hips. No bull.

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:57 (twenty-one years ago) link

(Okay, three posts in I see what I'm getting at: people actively defer to hipsters in matters of taste, and thus they prize and fear the hipsters' opinions about them. They should stop that.)

nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:58 (twenty-one years ago) link

Actually I think there is a talent to being trendy (in the non-pejorative sense of "following trends, staying up-to-date") that I can admire without irony. I'd like to believe, but don't actually, that it's just a matter of choices I've made that I am not a hipster.

Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:59 (twenty-one years ago) link

This is also why I'm amused by people who always use the sneery-pejorative "hipster" -- on some level it says you believe these people actually are cooler than you and that you're bothered by that!

A lot of people think 'cool' is shallow and thus to be mistrusted (but maybe resented too).

Differences between being 'cool', 'trendy', 'hip' and 'a hipster'?

I get intimidated sometimes in Hoxton bars or whatever where the clientele look trendier and more confident than I do, but I know that they mostly would be v.uncool if you actually talked to them. Certainly not hipsters anyway. Hipsters have to know stuff. Though I'm not you could be one and look a total state. Maybe, though.

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 10 February 2003 17:59 (twenty-one years ago) link

Ah, but the importance of staying up to date style-wise is arguably important, as Billy Joel once croaked:

"And if you can't understand why your world is so dead,
why you've got to keep in style and feed your head
Well you're 21 and still your mother makes your bed,
And that's too long"

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:03 (twenty-one years ago) link

Amateurist you are a hipster. Everyone ever on ILX apart from maybe GALE is a hipster.

It's one of those things like "middle class" -- everyone thinks they're pretty hip but not an actualy HIPSTER like THOSE people over there. Those people, in turn, think the same damn thing right up through supermodel egomaniacs, who are in thrall to the ultra-square and their ability to live normal rational lives.

But by any serious measure of "hipster," pretty much everyone here is one.

nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:05 (twenty-one years ago) link

I refuse to waste any precious time figuring out what is 'fresh' 'new' or 'hot', as in a year's time or less it will be 'stale' 'old' or 'cold'. If no one's wearing, buying, reading, listening, or watching something in 5 years time, doesn't it show a lack of quality (whatever that is)

Oops (Oops), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

what about monSTERS?
Oooh, they're worse than hipSTERS

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

Amateurist you are a hipster. Everyone ever on ILX apart from maybe GALE is a hipster.

No, I'm just a weirdo.

Christine "Green Leafy Dragon" Indigo (cindigo), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:12 (twenty-one years ago) link

i agree with nabiscos first 3 posts, as usual he got it down EXACT

not so sure about the 'everyone here is a hipster' thing, but "i dont care about whats cool right now etc etc" is usually the hipsters trademark, because, like, if you were a hipster you wouldnt admit to that right?

gareth (gareth), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:13 (twenty-one years ago) link

No, it's just that you're likely to have different criteria for 'cool' than they do.

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:15 (twenty-one years ago) link

I guess it depends on whether you're obeying a widely shared idea of what's cool or whether that idea is more hermetic. Is hipsterism a social quality or is there a such thing as Platonic hipsterism?

Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:16 (twenty-one years ago) link

Kismet N. + Amateurist!

Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:16 (twenty-one years ago) link

My grammar was not cool.

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:17 (twenty-one years ago) link

is it possible to be a populist hipster?

jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:19 (twenty-one years ago) link

Hefner?
Or is he just cool and not hip? I really need to think this through

Oops (Oops), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:22 (twenty-one years ago) link

i always thought/used hipster as a patronising synonym of trendy, ie a follower, someone who is up to date but only looking at other people's clocks, y'know topshop without the kokosolaki endorsement

the most agreeable aspect of this used is that while said victim would still dislike being defined as cool maan (keep yr guard up) he/she might slightly prefer being called a hipster than a trendy... thus confirming their hipsterness!!!

zemko (bob), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:22 (twenty-one years ago) link

Of course, jess! (that's what ILM used to be about, isn't it?)

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:22 (twenty-one years ago) link

zing!

jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:23 (twenty-one years ago) link

hoho the joke's on him not me! sigh

zemko (bob), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:23 (twenty-one years ago) link

this is like one of those "atom in the tail of a dog" things isnt it?

jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:25 (twenty-one years ago) link

anyway basically the hipster level is nowhere near the top. it's gola shoes and airport bags

zemko (bob), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:25 (twenty-one years ago) link

uhoh i didn't close somehting

zemko (bob), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:26 (twenty-one years ago) link

s'ok

zemko (bob), Monday, 10 February 2003 18:26 (twenty-one years ago) link

Skipping 2285 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

... and you wanna call *me* the hipster!

Many American citizens are literally paralyzed by (bernard snowy), Sunday, 23 March 2014 03:43 (ten years ago) link

Now a few groovy artisanal types are sounding the alarm about vaccines

yes, it is the """"cool"""" hipster people doing this, they are doing it to be cool, like noted hipster jenny mccarthy

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Sunday, 23 March 2014 04:19 (ten years ago) link

it's all the same though. anyone who objects to anything about the status quo is the same, no matter the content of their objections. they need to take a chill pill and get with the program. a chill vaccine even.

très hip (Treeship), Sunday, 23 March 2014 05:15 (ten years ago) link

shoot me up

markers, Sunday, 23 March 2014 05:34 (ten years ago) link

does obamacare cover the chill vaccine?

sent from my butt (harbl), Sunday, 23 March 2014 14:12 (ten years ago) link

haha i was coming here to post about this book. looks like a scream!
http://brokelyn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/greg-gutfeld-not-cool.jpg?width=156

slam dunk, Sunday, 23 March 2014 23:59 (ten years ago) link

i really love how the american right wing describes every cultural rift as a "war". so fun.

très hip (Treeship), Monday, 24 March 2014 00:06 (ten years ago) link

They like war

sonic thedgehod (albvivertine), Monday, 24 March 2014 00:24 (ten years ago) link

one year passes...

still #1

https://sites.google.com/a/beardleague.org/rva/home/CR%206342281613_91f1f1ae12_b-cropped.jpg

scott seward, Sunday, 5 April 2015 13:11 (nine years ago) link

http://i.imgur.com/c0zahZt.png

, Sunday, 5 April 2015 13:42 (nine years ago) link

one month passes...

http://i.imgur.com/iAJGOge.png http://i.imgur.com/KngLmWR.png

Probably fake but lmao

, Friday, 29 May 2015 11:57 (eight years ago) link

Someone riding a unicycle was run over by a bus in my neighbourhood yesterday. Feel slightly guilty that my first thought was "fucking hipster twat".

Just noise and screaming and no musical value at all. (Colonel Poo), Friday, 29 May 2015 13:05 (eight years ago) link

xp: that's real as fuck.

how's life, Friday, 29 May 2015 13:10 (eight years ago) link

Is it real or fake? It sounds like it was written by someone who never actually interacted with "hipsters" but merely read about them online via a collection of image macros.

Evan, Friday, 29 May 2015 14:30 (eight years ago) link

xxp most people i've seen riding unicycles are legitimate quirky weirdos who were in like circus club in high school and shit, not ncessarily hipsters?

marcos, Friday, 29 May 2015 15:16 (eight years ago) link

does that make them more or less deserving of our scorn? tough call there...

too young for seapunk (Moodles), Friday, 29 May 2015 15:19 (eight years ago) link

tbqf i support folks riding unicycles

marcos, Friday, 29 May 2015 15:23 (eight years ago) link

& I looked & frowned & lo, the hipster was me

Heroic melancholy continues to have a forceful grip on (bernard snowy), Friday, 29 May 2015 19:27 (eight years ago) link

Found out that Seattle has a bar called The Walrus and The Carpenter, which makes me wonder if the radio just plays the Decemberists over and over.

Kiarostami bag (milo z), Friday, 29 May 2015 19:36 (eight years ago) link

I was there last summer and have a distinct memory that they were playing Thin Lizzy iirc.

joygoat, Friday, 29 May 2015 21:58 (eight years ago) link

one month passes...

At least they said 'fortunately'

This Year's Model Victim (Tom D.), Monday, 20 July 2015 09:17 (eight years ago) link

i find this p awful. and the lol thumbs up reactions to it on twitter. i mean the stuff you see attributed to "hipsters" these days. i guess a pop-up streetfood market is in the core of the stereotype (despite the fact that these events are just full of every type of young person from all over london) but i've seen people on that "we want plates" twitter bemoaning "hipsters" when actually all the wooden boards etc are more typical of a provincial pub. a few months back there was a photo going around twitter entitled "a hipster, on his own in a pub, knitting. new trend?" and it was just some bearded nordic-looking man in his 40s. like just a person doing something vaguely unusual. if this is who people who aren't hipsters are then they deserve their perpetual disgruntlement.

doing my Objectives, handling some intense stuff (LocalGarda), Monday, 20 July 2015 09:38 (eight years ago) link

the mainstreaming of hipster culture memes is definitely a weird thing because if you call anyone out on it they call you a hipster. like, you can't say 'hipster-bashing is played out now', because that phrase in itself is an open goal.

(no offence to people) (dog latin), Monday, 20 July 2015 10:18 (eight years ago) link

never mind that nearly every other shop and restaurant in my commuter-belt hometown now describes itself as a boutique outlet and sports a twirly moustache on its shopfront.

(no offence to people) (dog latin), Monday, 20 July 2015 10:20 (eight years ago) link

http://www.scotns.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/ASA-Nev.jpg

is liking musicals really seen as particularly antithetical to hipsterism? (I guess weeping every time you see a musical isn't that hipsterish, but weeping every time you see a musical just seems an odd thing for anyone to do)

pop addicts should "do their thing", whatever that may be (soref), Thursday, 23 July 2015 22:08 (eight years ago) link

hipster today i think likes everything mainstream instead of the opposite

nose, Thursday, 23 July 2015 23:23 (eight years ago) link

Freaky Trigger won the culture war

Treeship, Thursday, 23 July 2015 23:27 (eight years ago) link

Where are the new mandarins?

Treeship, Thursday, 23 July 2015 23:29 (eight years ago) link

lol at an ad for ads

Οὖτις, Thursday, 23 July 2015 23:30 (eight years ago) link

seven months pass...

Maybe the wrong thread for this, but wondering if anyone would like to weigh in on this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nICH7QtFrU

This is a hipstery live comedy talent show that happens monthly at a theatre near where I live. Performing rabbits, kids impersonating Frank Sinatra etc. The person being interviewed is a very well-known person in the local community who is extremely marginalised and challenged. Harrassed and assaulted often. Arrested hundreds of times probably. Here (in my opinion) being patronised for being mentally ill. It's not the first time they've brought well-known people from the street on-stage for this and I find it disgusting.

The host was challenged about it on FB and said " I feel good about it though because I know that it was positive for her. She says that people have seen it on TV and approach her who wouldn't of before and are kinder to her because of it and that makes her feel more part of the community and less of an outsider. We are not solving mental illness, but it seems like this is a tiny tiny tiny step at least in the right direction."

Is he full of shit?

everything, Tuesday, 23 February 2016 22:30 (eight years ago) link

three months pass...

Mipster:

http://www.worldcrunch.com/mobile/#a:21178

Also, are we now reaching the phase where hipster (like Yuppie before it) isn't an insult as much as a warm joke?

King Nagl (Eazy), Tuesday, 7 June 2016 03:16 (seven years ago) link

six months pass...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/31/opinion/sunday/hipsters-broke-my-gaydar.html

oh dear

what. is. this. garbage.

Lesbians invented hipsters.

[...]

Lesbians were working on communal organic farms and freaking out about pesticides decades before the rest of the country.

[...]

Did plaid flannel come to mind? Work boots? Weirdly cut or especially shaggy hair? Maybe a bike?

[...]

If you’re a queer bristling at my generalizations of lesbians, tell me you don’t know any gays who look like what I’m describing. Look me in the eyes and tell me this, and if you can do it, I swear to you I will do something straight for a week: I’ll watch “The Bachelor” without irony, or wear Dockers, or buy a “Live, Laugh, Love” throw pillow and display it in my home.

this weirdo needs to go to west hollywood -- plenty of homosexuals that don't adhere to most of this

F♯ A♯ (∞), Tuesday, 3 January 2017 17:27 (seven years ago) link

one year passes...

i saw someone wearing a knit hat on a day when the high was 100 F, which seemed like an odd choice, and when i told someone else about it, he replied that someone who would do that is obviously a terrible hipster and that normal sensible people like us would never do such a thing. i kind of frowned and said "i dunno, man" and didn't really try to argue the point, but now i want to know what this guy thinks a hipster is.

circles, Saturday, 30 June 2018 02:14 (five years ago) link

i got called a hipster the other day. was wearing a suit, toque.....they said "i like your hipster style'

music saved my life (Ross), Saturday, 30 June 2018 02:32 (five years ago) link

I got myself a sort of obnoxious “edgy” haircut recently (buzzed on the sides with etched lines, faux-hawk on top, mullet in back), and I must say there’s something fun about sporting an annoying style like this. First, because I just felt like it. Second, because I’m realizing I really don’t care very much if some people think “douchebag hipster” or whatever. And third: my teenage kids think it’s “epic”. :-)

The fact is, I suspect I’m close enough to whatever many people think is a “hipster” that it’s not worth the effort to try to ensure I’m not mistaken for one.

never have i been a blue calm sea (collardio gelatinous), Saturday, 30 June 2018 03:39 (five years ago) link

Yeah ^

Y'all (Ross), Saturday, 30 June 2018 13:37 (five years ago) link

Steve Albini apparently had to relinquish his favored hipster haircut because it had been co-opted by alt-right.

Philip Nunez, Saturday, 30 June 2018 14:14 (five years ago) link

i think some people dislike hipsters because they associate them with a certain lifestyle/way of thinking/gentrification - which can often be wrong.

Rhubarb (Ross), Saturday, 30 June 2018 16:34 (five years ago) link

one year passes...

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/a-giving-tree-grows-in-brooklyn?fbclid=IwAR0EACpWbBNxJMnETavMz3mqFpLvY8l1V-CobcD330KWCSMnbGRaqDTPEkM

Seeing pieces like this published in 2020 is like finding one of those isolated Japanese island bunkers where the soldiers don't know the war is over.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 26 January 2020 15:17 (four years ago) link

anyone else see this thread in a serif font?

flopson, Sunday, 26 January 2020 22:19 (four years ago) link

Yes

TS: Kirk/Spock vs. Marat/Sade (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 26 January 2020 22:20 (four years ago) link

I am still in favor of a return to "hep cat" as an accolade.

A is for (Aimless), Sunday, 26 January 2020 22:23 (four years ago) link

seeing this in sans-serif, btw

A is for (Aimless), Sunday, 26 January 2020 22:23 (four years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPzt3A4Se_U

TS: Kirk/Spock vs. Marat/Sade (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 26 January 2020 22:27 (four years ago) link

mcsweeneys reading man bristles at unflattering depiction of hipsters as 'so passe'

lumen (esby), Sunday, 26 January 2020 23:18 (four years ago) link

ftr it was in my facebook feed, I do NOT reed McSweeneys!

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 27 January 2020 04:24 (four years ago) link

That Blossom song (OK a Dave Frishberg song sung by Blossom) is one of the best things ever, do click that triangle

Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 27 January 2020 04:34 (four years ago) link

Speaking of McSweeney's, Dave Eggers Trump novel sounds like it's the worst thing to ever be written.

Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Monday, 27 January 2020 06:26 (four years ago) link

Did you post the McS link without reading it?

sarahell, Monday, 27 January 2020 17:23 (four years ago) link

Seeing pieces like this published in 2020 is like finding one of those isolated Japanese island bunkers where the soldiers don't know the war is over.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, January 26, 2020 10:17 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

good. let's wind the culture back to 2010 -- a moment of crisis but also incipient hope -- and just do this shit over again, better this time.

treeship., Monday, 27 January 2020 17:40 (four years ago) link


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