Why is casual racism/sexism more accepted in video games than other forms of media (these days)?

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High hopes for this turning out a smart and civil discussion like the horror films why not thread, deep fears that it will descend into madness fyi

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think it's bc games are competitive experiences and competition brings out the worst in human beings

― Mordy, Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:30 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

idk i obv have some pretty strong concerns abt that wrt online FPS screaming idiots and the like, but i dont think that has as much to do with the games themselves (i mean obv its part of the experience but it isnt internalized content per se)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

some of it is cultural differences/lack of knowledge between Asia and the West.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

do you guys mean disgusting behavior in players or the games?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

i mean ive heard some commentary on this but a lot of the big arguments are a little facile and outsidery to me, like the idea that games are a juvenilized form of entertainment and thus more prone to juvenile thinking

xxpost yeah bnw that is def one of the things that i think factors in

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

the sexism is definitely audience targeting. and it is depressingly dead on.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

i am talking abt the games, not the players, but obv there is going to be some reflection there wrt consumers influencing content etc

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's not just that consumers influence the content, it's also that game creators are gamers themselves and exist in the gaming community. they play on the same multiplayer servers and their customers, they're influenced by the same games...

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

-demographics.
-the fact that computer games, for fairly obvious reasons, attract less sophisticated writers than other forms of media.

zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

was the new deus ex french? or french canadian? because thats def one of the weirdest examples of this - fairly thoughtful intellectual game and then whoa whats up with this homeless lady

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

to be perjorative a bit, nerds' poor socialization extends to society broadly, not just socializing. and they get reeeaaally defensive when called on their shit.

combined with a post-rockstar "it's supposed to be funny!" attitude w/r/t this kind of shit and it's a toxic brew

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

A big hook for many games is "by gamers, for gamers"; this means almost by design that a good chunk of regressive content is going to be present in the games since they are operating in this feedback loop where the social environment these games are created in is normalized to be incredibly shitty in a lot of ways.

For all of the equality for things like, say, making your character be male or female is a cosmetic change that doesn't affect your stats, you have things like all of the female iterations of the WoW races being as close to "busty cutie-pie" as the baseline skin will allow them to be (the undead and dwarf races are particularly comical re: this, but even the frickin' minotaur race has "sexy" female forms with cow heads).

xposts basically covered all of this but I am inflicting the concept of sexy cows on y'all anyway

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

some of it is sort of legacy racism from the earlier forms of media that fed VGs? D&D, action movies, etc

xp oh god WoW haha

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

how do you guys rank sexism/racism by systems? nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

also, game content really not as important as ludic components (the best story can just barely redeem a game with terrible gameplay sometimes, while tons of beloved games have amazing gameplay and no story to speak of, or a really shitty story), so it's less important to designers to get stuff right with the content - which is where the racist/sexist stuff primarily exists

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

I mean... come on

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

actually feel like WoW held back a lot compared to some other games.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

Skyrim has the same sort of issues. Like ... why does my lizard lady have tits.

polyphonic, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

have you ever played a Mario game??? also Punchout lololol.

zappi, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

theyre not?

Lamp, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

mario racist against turtles?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

well sure, WoW isn't like Duke Nukem, but the point is more that the whole "moving comic book" medium that their art direction is based upon is super normalized in how the genders should be represented, to the point where even for races where it doesn't make sense for the males to be burly he-men and the women to be curvy sexpots, they still are

also, there's the female night elf dance (which is based on the famous Alizee clips that were zooming around the Internet in the early 00s):

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

copying this over from the other thread because i thinks it a very interesting and good point to think abt

i wonder if part of it is because games are often a solo experience (though not always of course) whereas movies, at some point in their release cycle at least, are experienced collectively? in other words, because the casual racism is easier for people to swallow by themselves as opposed to in a group?

― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 8:29 PM (25 minutes ago)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

okay lol @ Mario being so mainstreamed that all of the "MAMA MIA" and "IT'SA ME, MARIO!" interjections don't even register as caricature anymore

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

i disagree w/ ZS's assertion esp bc i think the most racist/sexist behavior re video games happens in their most collective experience (multiplayer)

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah I think this is pretty easily chalked up to creators pandering to (and being born of) the overwhelmingly 15-35 male demographics of AAA game buyers. The women and men who like and play AAA games but don't like sexualized representations of women in these games (and also comic books) make their voices heard but the majority of the audience would be bummed if you took away their lizardwoman tits.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

duh DJP you cant be racist against italians anymore, the godfather fixed that forever

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

did Mario ever say those lines or are we forcing racism on the poor guy? are we blaming his video game char for his cartoon version? important issues in my work day

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

"it's a-me, Mario!" the sound of booting up Super Mario 64 iirc.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol gg then

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

fyi listening to that may drive you crazy

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

the Mario Kart one is also insane

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

"So long, gay Bowser!"

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

Alot of this sounds like hes sleeping with someone. *barfs*
PeachyzeldagirlXD 3 weeks ago

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

Do u say "ravioli!" when u fuckin?

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

did they really get roberto benigni to do the voices?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

Everybody knows that Mario's wet dreams involve pasta and Bowser.

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

I worked at a gaming geek/comic book store for a couple years and this kind of stuff is everywhere. the idea that females without massive bobs existed at some point is lost on these people

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha awesome typo

"I like the writer but does the artist have to make every female character's hair so big?"

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

i'ma luigi. nambar wan.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh man my old college roommate used to say "yeah, peach has got it" in a squeaky ass voice all the time. mad nostalgia.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

I never played the Horde side of WoW with any regularity so I didn't realize that the trolls were all Jamaican until way way late in the game when I started a troll character because I was bored. Reading the quest text for most of the starter area was PAINFUL.

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

there's a ton of gender normalization in movies too, yeah?

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

im def not saying that movies are immune but i dont think you can make the argument that movies even approach the overt O_O aspects of video games wrt either of these

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

(I also used to play WoW with the sound off and either Vent or iTunes going, so I missed a good chunk of the voice acting)

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh yeah for sure, and movies as a genre are much more mature. but it seems to me that anytime you throw a lot of money at a project (either a blockbuster movie or a blockbuster game) you're gonna end up w/ some pretty unreasonable gender representations

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

competitive video gaming is a whole issue to touch upon; i mean, especially if you're gonna compare WoW to Street Fighter to Starcraft, they're all different, even in degrees of machoness

Nhex, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:36 (1 week ago) Permalink

I don't think I meant to say that the video game environment was idyllic or not misogynist at any point

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:40 (1 week ago) Permalink

xp to 龜: i don't think I was! but lots of spectrum-y people certainly gravitate toward that more codified and obsessively structured world, myself included
fwiw, my girl works as a teacher with autistic students and i have done some work in that arena as well so i understand the reaction

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:41 (1 week ago) Permalink

it is true that sometimes someone's rampant sexism is greatly undercut by their sexy female night elf main character

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:42 (1 week ago) Permalink

(apropos of nothing, I clicked on another thread and read "Not all messages..." at the top and it made me think of this thread again)

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:44 (1 week ago) Permalink

I don't know what's undercutting about the fact I like to stare at night elf ass all day, DJP

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:46 (1 week ago) Permalink

(real thing that was cited in an article not long ago about the "female character"-playing sexists)

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:47 (1 week ago) Permalink

am0n, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:49 (1 week ago) Permalink

ha

I think the only female character I ever created was a female Tauren (hunter), because it was ludicrous and hilarious that they tried to make them sexy cow ladies

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:50 (1 week ago) Permalink

i thought you grew up in the midwest

goole, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:51 (1 week ago) Permalink

Xps pejorative use of "autistic" is the language of 4chan. /b/'s cringe threads are basically opportunities to post screencaps from facebook and tumblr to call out people's perceived autism.

bamcquern, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:52 (1 week ago) Permalink

lol goole

my folks rent land to a dairy farm, too; still never gonna get busy with a cow

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:55 (1 week ago) Permalink

xp to bam, well i don't know that environment well enough to get that connection so i'll shut the fuck up now.

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:56 (1 week ago) Permalink

I gotta find that "Billy Mitchell" episode of Regular Show

Nhex, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:58 (1 week ago) Permalink

female voice actor for mass effect way superior to the male voice actor imo

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:58 (1 week ago) Permalink

I want to play a 'Mordy' text adventure.

Spaceport Leuchars (dowd), Monday, 8 September 2014 20:19 (1 week ago) Permalink

they're out there. warning: they are not fantastic.

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 20:22 (1 week ago) Permalink

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 20:22 (1 week ago) Permalink

oh also i guess penny arcade weighed in idgaf really

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 20:23 (1 week ago) Permalink

your w33d is glowing with a faint blue glow

mookieproof, Monday, 8 September 2014 20:24 (1 week ago) Permalink

Is Penny Arcade actually weighing in here? The news post is just some mundane observation about how game journalists feed off Reddit. People say the same thing about Gawker et al.

Reddit is part of that atomization, also. People often ask me what news sites I read, and implicit in this is the idea that they’re looking to shift an allegiance. But I don’t read sites out of allegiance, and it barely matters what they have written - and not just because most of it is insulting or aggressively stupid. It doesn’t matter because I just strip it off the wing bone in one quick pull. I need a button for my jacket that says “I’m Only Here For The Organic Compounds.” I process their text like a Perl script, shucking nonsense, and then I make pixel sculptures out of them with my best friend. My needs may be different.

Much of the content on “the big news sites” is simply reposts from Reddit, encased in their acrid saliva. Once you realize this, you can’t really read them in the same way.

jmm, Monday, 8 September 2014 20:47 (1 week ago) Permalink

mmm, maybe i just assumed

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 20:49 (1 week ago) Permalink

Yeah, I also took that "Oh they're going to have views! Oh no, I guess not". Their forums (which I've never really read before, and kind of assumed was all scum and villainy?) have a pretty readable thread on this.

Sorry about the Nazis, Mordy - I was going for something a little more specific than just living in a fallen world though. I suppose that McCarthyism hits a lot of the same notes? 'These people' are among you, present an existential threat, are not applicable to any sense of commonality.

Reminded by Doctor Casino's booming post: I kind of wonder about the stories that young geeks soak up these days - I've seen a few actually say things along the lines of "(reveals purported pecadillo) Yeah, and they think they're the good guys!" which when I was growing up, was the clue that you are a) evil and b) insane.

Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 00:24 (1 week ago) Permalink

beetbort

⌘-B (mh), Tuesday, 9 September 2014 21:46 (1 week ago) Permalink

ha yes

bloopblorp

goole, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 21:54 (1 week ago) Permalink

As I wrote last week, gaming journalism, populated by well-meaning liberals, has forgotten what it is for and become consumed with social justice activism, at the expense of writing intelligently about games.

maybe i'd be more sympathetic to this point if gaming journalism had ever been accused of "writing intelligently about games," as opposed to aggregating screen shots and previewing a list of dragon shouts that'll be in the new elder scrolls game. by comparison social justice activism is a huge step up and who knows? maybe learning to write acc to this critical lens will prep them for other critical analysis as well.

Mordy, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 22:03 (1 week ago) Permalink

if kotaku keeps writing about feminist critiques of video games, will they still have time to publish 20 photos of the same Kratos promo bust??

Mordy, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 22:08 (1 week ago) Permalink

bigger issue there i think is the assumption that being "consumed with social justice activism" would make it impossible to write intelligently about games, which doesn't compute at all to me because yeah, it'd anyway be something to subject the games to or test them by, which indeed, isn't really happening AFAIK.

btw, omg, i was thinking about bloopblorp just yesterday. "...then blorp them back!"

Doctor Casino, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 22:30 (1 week ago) Permalink

all those guys sending roger ebert angry letters begging him to let games be art and now it's like wait wait wait -- criticism!?!

difficult listening hour, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 23:18 (1 week ago) Permalink

(from girls!?!)

difficult listening hour, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 23:21 (1 week ago) Permalink

some art "isn't for the critics"

⌘-B (mh), Tuesday, 9 September 2014 23:41 (1 week ago) Permalink

Metal should only be listened to by metalheads who only listen to metal

Rand McNulty (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, 9 September 2014 23:50 (1 week ago) Permalink

I am so sorry guys, my hateful speech was because 4chan was goading me on. i am a cool guy, i did not say those things of my own volition :(

⌘-B (mh), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 03:33 (6 days ago) Permalink

Good caption from that article: "A man harasses a woman while another man kind of stands around doing nothing. A beautiful microcosm of recent events."

Barry Gordy (Neil S), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 08:23 (6 days ago) Permalink

anyone up for some ~thoughts~ from an indie dev

http://techraptor.net/2014/09/08/indie-developers-toughts-on-state-gaming-industry/

What made you decide to speak out now?

50% personal fears and 50% of historical experience with my country.

As I mentioned before, my game is about a taboo topic, and I am doomed to be called sexist, a misogynist and victim blamer by some in the media. In a healthy industry, every game would be judged by quality and not by how it reflects current agendas. If games are art, we must agree that art is not a concrete substance. Realism is a valid form of art. I love realism. Frankly reality is gray. So, excuse me if I don’t buy irrational feminists white and black ideas that men are inherently rapists and women are victims. As an artist, I want to explore every side of the issue.

am0n, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 14:46 (6 days ago) Permalink

Warlock • 2 days ago
I almost stood up in place and started to clap after I read this article. This dev is one boss guy.

am0n, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 14:50 (6 days ago) Permalink

sincerely,

Warlock

am0n, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 14:51 (6 days ago) Permalink

My game is a 3D puzzle/horror and the topic taps a taboo subject – false rape and sexual harassment accusations. I am trying to capture the horror of false accusations in a man’s life.

am0n, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 14:52 (6 days ago) Permalink

The fact that he comes from a Post-Soviet Union country, which as you will see in the interview, also plays a role in forming his worldview.

i've mentioned this before on ilx but the most hardcore republicans i know are all former soviets

Mordy, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 14:53 (6 days ago) Permalink

some of the best 3D puzzle/horror/false rape accusation games were made by former soviets

am0n, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 14:56 (6 days ago) Permalink

An indie developer, who has requested to remain anonymous

They probably shouldn't have used a still from Indie Game: The Movie.

jmm, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 15:00 (6 days ago) Permalink

Or no, I guess the interviewee is someone else.

The main reason I decided to make an indie game was a well-known movie about the indie scene where now well-established developers posed themselves as artists.

jmm, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 15:17 (6 days ago) Permalink

this indie developer sounds like a treat

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 15:33 (6 days ago) Permalink

http://the-toast.net/2014/09/11/im-gamer/

goole, Thursday, 11 September 2014 16:16 (5 days ago) Permalink

loooooooool

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Thursday, 11 September 2014 16:44 (5 days ago) Permalink

diabetes?

ineverenjoyyourcontributions (stevie), Friday, 12 September 2014 18:36 (4 days ago) Permalink

I've had diarrhea before, Xbox

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Friday, 12 September 2014 18:38 (4 days ago) Permalink

The ultimate image of loneliness.

EZ Snappin, Friday, 12 September 2014 18:40 (4 days ago) Permalink


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