Why is casual racism/sexism more accepted in video games than other forms of media (these days)?

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High hopes for this turning out a smart and civil discussion like the horror films why not thread, deep fears that it will descend into madness fyi

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

i think it's bc games are competitive experiences and competition brings out the worst in human beings

― Mordy, Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:30 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

idk i obv have some pretty strong concerns abt that wrt online FPS screaming idiots and the like, but i dont think that has as much to do with the games themselves (i mean obv its part of the experience but it isnt internalized content per se)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

some of it is cultural differences/lack of knowledge between Asia and the West.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

do you guys mean disgusting behavior in players or the games?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

i mean ive heard some commentary on this but a lot of the big arguments are a little facile and outsidery to me, like the idea that games are a juvenilized form of entertainment and thus more prone to juvenile thinking

xxpost yeah bnw that is def one of the things that i think factors in

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

the sexism is definitely audience targeting. and it is depressingly dead on.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

i am talking abt the games, not the players, but obv there is going to be some reflection there wrt consumers influencing content etc

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's not just that consumers influence the content, it's also that game creators are gamers themselves and exist in the gaming community. they play on the same multiplayer servers and their customers, they're influenced by the same games...

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

-demographics.
-the fact that computer games, for fairly obvious reasons, attract less sophisticated writers than other forms of media.

zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

was the new deus ex french? or french canadian? because thats def one of the weirdest examples of this - fairly thoughtful intellectual game and then whoa whats up with this homeless lady

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

to be perjorative a bit, nerds' poor socialization extends to society broadly, not just socializing. and they get reeeaaally defensive when called on their shit.

combined with a post-rockstar "it's supposed to be funny!" attitude w/r/t this kind of shit and it's a toxic brew

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

A big hook for many games is "by gamers, for gamers"; this means almost by design that a good chunk of regressive content is going to be present in the games since they are operating in this feedback loop where the social environment these games are created in is normalized to be incredibly shitty in a lot of ways.

For all of the equality for things like, say, making your character be male or female is a cosmetic change that doesn't affect your stats, you have things like all of the female iterations of the WoW races being as close to "busty cutie-pie" as the baseline skin will allow them to be (the undead and dwarf races are particularly comical re: this, but even the frickin' minotaur race has "sexy" female forms with cow heads).

xposts basically covered all of this but I am inflicting the concept of sexy cows on y'all anyway

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

some of it is sort of legacy racism from the earlier forms of media that fed VGs? D&D, action movies, etc

xp oh god WoW haha

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

how do you guys rank sexism/racism by systems? nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

also, game content really not as important as ludic components (the best story can just barely redeem a game with terrible gameplay sometimes, while tons of beloved games have amazing gameplay and no story to speak of, or a really shitty story), so it's less important to designers to get stuff right with the content - which is where the racist/sexist stuff primarily exists

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

I mean... come on

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

actually feel like WoW held back a lot compared to some other games.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

Skyrim has the same sort of issues. Like ... why does my lizard lady have tits.

polyphonic, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

have you ever played a Mario game??? also Punchout lololol.

zappi, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

theyre not?

Lamp, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

mario racist against turtles?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

well sure, WoW isn't like Duke Nukem, but the point is more that the whole "moving comic book" medium that their art direction is based upon is super normalized in how the genders should be represented, to the point where even for races where it doesn't make sense for the males to be burly he-men and the women to be curvy sexpots, they still are

also, there's the female night elf dance (which is based on the famous Alizee clips that were zooming around the Internet in the early 00s):

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

copying this over from the other thread because i thinks it a very interesting and good point to think abt

i wonder if part of it is because games are often a solo experience (though not always of course) whereas movies, at some point in their release cycle at least, are experienced collectively? in other words, because the casual racism is easier for people to swallow by themselves as opposed to in a group?

― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 8:29 PM (25 minutes ago)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

okay lol @ Mario being so mainstreamed that all of the "MAMA MIA" and "IT'SA ME, MARIO!" interjections don't even register as caricature anymore

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

i disagree w/ ZS's assertion esp bc i think the most racist/sexist behavior re video games happens in their most collective experience (multiplayer)

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yeah I think this is pretty easily chalked up to creators pandering to (and being born of) the overwhelmingly 15-35 male demographics of AAA game buyers. The women and men who like and play AAA games but don't like sexualized representations of women in these games (and also comic books) make their voices heard but the majority of the audience would be bummed if you took away their lizardwoman tits.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

duh DJP you cant be racist against italians anymore, the godfather fixed that forever

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

did Mario ever say those lines or are we forcing racism on the poor guy? are we blaming his video game char for his cartoon version? important issues in my work day

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

"it's a-me, Mario!" the sound of booting up Super Mario 64 iirc.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

lol gg then

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

fyi listening to that may drive you crazy

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

the Mario Kart one is also insane

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

"So long, gay Bowser!"

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

Alot of this sounds like hes sleeping with someone. *barfs*
PeachyzeldagirlXD 3 weeks ago

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

Do u say "ravioli!" when u fuckin?

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

did they really get roberto benigni to do the voices?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

Everybody knows that Mario's wet dreams involve pasta and Bowser.

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

I worked at a gaming geek/comic book store for a couple years and this kind of stuff is everywhere. the idea that females without massive bobs existed at some point is lost on these people

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha awesome typo

"I like the writer but does the artist have to make every female character's hair so big?"

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

i'ma luigi. nambar wan.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

oh man my old college roommate used to say "yeah, peach has got it" in a squeaky ass voice all the time. mad nostalgia.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

I never played the Horde side of WoW with any regularity so I didn't realize that the trolls were all Jamaican until way way late in the game when I started a troll character because I was bored. Reading the quest text for most of the starter area was PAINFUL.

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

there's a ton of gender normalization in movies too, yeah?

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

im def not saying that movies are immune but i dont think you can make the argument that movies even approach the overt O_O aspects of video games wrt either of these

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

(I also used to play WoW with the sound off and either Vent or iTunes going, so I missed a good chunk of the voice acting)

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

oh yeah for sure, and movies as a genre are much more mature. but it seems to me that anytime you throw a lot of money at a project (either a blockbuster movie or a blockbuster game) you're gonna end up w/ some pretty unreasonable gender representations

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

Credit: howtokeepapositiveattitudedotcom (stevie), Wednesday, 22 July 2015 12:41 (1 month ago) Permalink

collects skulls/is skull

Credit: howtokeepapositiveattitudedotcom (stevie), Wednesday, 22 July 2015 12:42 (1 month ago) Permalink

the degree to which this guy links his identity to Smoking Cigarettes and Drinking Whiskey is kind of tragic.

Credit: howtokeepapositiveattitudedotcom (stevie), Wednesday, 22 July 2015 12:42 (1 month ago) Permalink

that's someone's grandma's sofa, too

Credit: howtokeepapositiveattitudedotcom (stevie), Wednesday, 22 July 2015 12:43 (1 month ago) Permalink

wow that's remarkable, he really does look like skeleton. which is...ironic.

Roberto Spiralli, Wednesday, 22 July 2015 12:44 (1 month ago) Permalink

is he wearing two pagers in holsters on his belt?

bizarro gazzara, Wednesday, 22 July 2015 12:45 (1 month ago) Permalink

prefers masculine signifiers like taut, well-toned abs and lots of leather

regret it? nope. reddit? yep. (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 22 July 2015 12:49 (1 month ago) Permalink

i see the "has a family" part of the definition of "patriarch" is slipping away

goole, Wednesday, 22 July 2015 16:18 (1 month ago) Permalink

SPOILER: The big reveal of the film is apparently that Feminist Frequency's address is ... a post office box!! They tracked it down and filmed it. That is, their revelation demonstrates why people use PO boxes.

jmm, Wednesday, 22 July 2015 17:38 (1 month ago) Permalink

kinda lol but mostly sad

you are extreme, Patti LuPone. (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 22 July 2015 17:41 (1 month ago) Permalink

Do you guys think we could get a good Patreon going for a documentary about their documentary?

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 22 July 2015 19:07 (1 month ago) Permalink

bizarro gazzara, Wednesday, 22 July 2015 20:07 (1 month ago) Permalink

nice

Nhex, Wednesday, 22 July 2015 20:16 (1 month ago) Permalink

Jesus fucking Christ: An entire article about the fact that Feminist Frequency can be (legally) quite cagy about the "need" to prove their charity status to just anyone, because the forms have their home addresses on them, which ends up with "Yeah, they're legit (but the documents totally have their home addresses on them)"

http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2015/07/feminist-frequency-leaked-e-mails-reveal-why-theyre-secretive-about-charity-status/

Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 22 July 2015 20:25 (1 month ago) Permalink

So the big horrible thing they did here was use an artists' work without permission (which is what the ENTIRE youtube videogame economy is founded on) then politely remove it upon request.

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 22 July 2015 20:53 (1 month ago) Permalink

And not immediately provide a document with their names and addresses on it to a doxxer's friend.

Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 22 July 2015 20:55 (1 month ago) Permalink

https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/3e850m/voice_actor_troy_baker_supposedly_quitting/

LOL not even going to read that thread right now, I know it's a shit show.

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 23 July 2015 05:52 (1 month ago) Permalink

Do you guys think we could get a good Patreon going for a documentary about their documentary?

would watch that documentary about their documentary

Credit: howtokeepapositiveattitudedotcom (stevie), Thursday, 23 July 2015 08:47 (1 month ago) Permalink

it's hilarious that #gg got in such an uproar about femfreq's kickstarter raising so much money because 'who needs cash to make a series of talking heads videos' and now these two clowns are providing a masterclass in how you can raise tens of thousands of dollars but still make videos which look amateurish as fuck

bizarro gazzara, Thursday, 23 July 2015 09:15 (1 month ago) Permalink

how is that dude's pic not on a leather sofa with a cigar, seems like he's kind of weak on his masculinity

Upright Mammal (mh), Friday, 24 July 2015 01:03 (1 month ago) Permalink

lol they used the lorem ipsum description instead of the actual text.

passive aggressive DN (onimo), Sunday, 2 August 2015 08:29 (4 weeks ago) Permalink

$8k a month well spent

bizarro gazzara, Sunday, 2 August 2015 09:21 (4 weeks ago) Permalink

That's great! They got lorem ipsum wrong. XD

how's life, Sunday, 2 August 2015 11:23 (4 weeks ago) Permalink

Must have been more people in the film than watching it.

inside, skeletons are always inside, that's obvious. (dowd), Sunday, 2 August 2015 13:43 (4 weeks ago) Permalink

lolllllloollllll

hope ipsum can bounce back from this

Gorefest Frump (Doctor Casino), Sunday, 2 August 2015 15:30 (4 weeks ago) Permalink

LOL

Getting ipsum wrong is next level incompetence.

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Sunday, 2 August 2015 16:23 (4 weeks ago) Permalink

oh god

bizarro gazzara, Sunday, 2 August 2015 20:19 (4 weeks ago) Permalink

it's sweet how these benign old gentlemen are trying to get in touch with what the kids are doing

the lion tweets tonight (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 2 August 2015 20:23 (4 weeks ago) Permalink

I'm not quite sure where else to put this, but I know we've talked about roosh v itt before. Looks like his reputation is beginning to precede him http://www.buzzfeed.com/ishmaeldaro/roosh-v-chased-out-of-montreal-bar#.noRd8zBZD

(extremely nerds voice) (Clay), Tuesday, 11 August 2015 21:45 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

bill kristol is into misogyny in all its forms, new and old

panettone for the painfully alone (mayor jingleberries), Tuesday, 11 August 2015 21:52 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

lol at that roosh motherfucker getting completely shut down by an entire city

let's not get too excited w/ the ouches (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 11 August 2015 21:53 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

In addition to a speech and Q&A period, Roosh promises time for attendees to “have an intimate one-on-one moment with myself where we can take selfies together.”

huh

I Am Curious (Dolezal) (DJP), Tuesday, 11 August 2015 22:04 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

This is slightly off-topic I guess

http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/11/technology/mens-rights-activist-chic-ceo/index.html

Rava, who also serves as secretary to men's rights organization National Coalition for Men, declined to talk to CNN Money by phone. ("I do not trust you will quote me correctly or in the proper context given your leftwing, pro-female, anti-male bias," he wrote in an email.

Rava said this about CNN Money! Pretty good.

polyphonic, Tuesday, 11 August 2015 23:27 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

v distant fb friend shared BREITBART link to MILO story about ROOSH in admiring tones and I thought, oh yeah, you've got to be muted right the fuck now

Credit: howtokeepapositiveattitudedotcom (stevie), Wednesday, 12 August 2015 07:17 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Fuckin' Roosh was on the front page of the National Post, below the fold, earlier this week

Purves Grundy (kingfish), Friday, 14 August 2015 10:55 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

http://www.polygon.com/2015/8/13/9149481/violent-video-games-aggression-research-review-report-apa-resolution

What do you think?

I think saying there is a link between violent video games and aggression is kind of duh. Any violent media will attract people that enjoy violence. It is a very easy conclusion to reach.

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Friday, 14 August 2015 19:46 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I think the blame for a lot of racist/sexist/violence tropes and stuff in video games lies on US pop culture, specifically TV and Hollywood movies. The 80s had a weird experimental phase in the beginning which completely collapsed and was saved mostly by games that wished they were James Cameron and Arnold Schwarzenegger movies. But this generation of games was arguably dominated by Japanese developers who took inspiration from US culture. By the time America began to make a serious step back into video games, it was in a post-9/11 world. The games that the US put out were often historical war/assassination simulators and featured violent elements like torture and mass murder at the same time the gov't was signing off on those things irl.

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Friday, 14 August 2015 19:52 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Meta Forksclove-Liebeskind (forksclovetofu), Friday, 14 August 2015 22:25 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

when the parody of the thing is indistinguishable from the thing itself mostly cause you can't overdo the overdone

Meta Forksclove-Liebeskind (forksclovetofu), Friday, 14 August 2015 22:26 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

that polygon report was pretty even-keeled - i rarely see something so sober said as violence behavior could be an accumulation of various risk factors in these kinds of stories

Nhex, Friday, 14 August 2015 23:28 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

that simpsons episode came out like four years before Batman & Robin, forks

Now Dom Go Suggbanizer Way (Why?) (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, 18 August 2015 20:03 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

yeah, the parody leads to the institutionalized norm was part of my point (though i coulda phrased that better)

Meta Forksclove-Liebeskind (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 19 August 2015 00:06 (1 week ago) Permalink

bizarro gazzara, Monday, 31 August 2015 10:44 (Yesterday) Permalink

i gather anita sarkeesian put out another video today?

and this 'movement' is still going on! amazing to think of really. here's a decent writeup of the current situation, which is about the same as it's always been. their meetups have received bomb threats on at least two occasions i've heard of, which is really fucked up.

http://www.gamepolitics.com/2015/08/27/play-it-straight-and-theyre-still-irate-year-hostile-feedback

goole, Monday, 31 August 2015 21:49 (Yesterday) Permalink

omg the ab dudes

μpright mammal (mh), Monday, 31 August 2015 21:50 (Yesterday) Permalink

your terrible ideas (gamer edition):

A bizzaro Anita Sarkeesian video that with the help of modded game footage shows a world where you play a female in games like gtav and god of war, and all the men are hookers, slaves and other sex objects. Lots of in game footage of men looking like models and being treated like dirt. Some wear chaps, some wear speedos, some nudity here and there... yada yada yada

The Once-ler, Monday, 31 August 2015 22:48 (Yesterday) Permalink

oh... and all the dialogue can stay the same, just substitute female nouns/pronouns for male ones and vice versa

The Once-ler, Monday, 31 August 2015 22:53 (Yesterday) Permalink

Yeah, laughing at the ab dudes heartily

Purves Grundy (kingfish), Tuesday, 1 September 2015 02:40 (11 hours ago) Permalink


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