Why is casual racism/sexism more accepted in video games than other forms of media (these days)?

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High hopes for this turning out a smart and civil discussion like the horror films why not thread, deep fears that it will descend into madness fyi

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think it's bc games are competitive experiences and competition brings out the worst in human beings

― Mordy, Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:30 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

idk i obv have some pretty strong concerns abt that wrt online FPS screaming idiots and the like, but i dont think that has as much to do with the games themselves (i mean obv its part of the experience but it isnt internalized content per se)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

some of it is cultural differences/lack of knowledge between Asia and the West.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

do you guys mean disgusting behavior in players or the games?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

i mean ive heard some commentary on this but a lot of the big arguments are a little facile and outsidery to me, like the idea that games are a juvenilized form of entertainment and thus more prone to juvenile thinking

xxpost yeah bnw that is def one of the things that i think factors in

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

the sexism is definitely audience targeting. and it is depressingly dead on.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

i am talking abt the games, not the players, but obv there is going to be some reflection there wrt consumers influencing content etc

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's not just that consumers influence the content, it's also that game creators are gamers themselves and exist in the gaming community. they play on the same multiplayer servers and their customers, they're influenced by the same games...

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

-demographics.
-the fact that computer games, for fairly obvious reasons, attract less sophisticated writers than other forms of media.

zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

was the new deus ex french? or french canadian? because thats def one of the weirdest examples of this - fairly thoughtful intellectual game and then whoa whats up with this homeless lady

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

to be perjorative a bit, nerds' poor socialization extends to society broadly, not just socializing. and they get reeeaaally defensive when called on their shit.

combined with a post-rockstar "it's supposed to be funny!" attitude w/r/t this kind of shit and it's a toxic brew

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

A big hook for many games is "by gamers, for gamers"; this means almost by design that a good chunk of regressive content is going to be present in the games since they are operating in this feedback loop where the social environment these games are created in is normalized to be incredibly shitty in a lot of ways.

For all of the equality for things like, say, making your character be male or female is a cosmetic change that doesn't affect your stats, you have things like all of the female iterations of the WoW races being as close to "busty cutie-pie" as the baseline skin will allow them to be (the undead and dwarf races are particularly comical re: this, but even the frickin' minotaur race has "sexy" female forms with cow heads).

xposts basically covered all of this but I am inflicting the concept of sexy cows on y'all anyway

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

some of it is sort of legacy racism from the earlier forms of media that fed VGs? D&D, action movies, etc

xp oh god WoW haha

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

how do you guys rank sexism/racism by systems? nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

also, game content really not as important as ludic components (the best story can just barely redeem a game with terrible gameplay sometimes, while tons of beloved games have amazing gameplay and no story to speak of, or a really shitty story), so it's less important to designers to get stuff right with the content - which is where the racist/sexist stuff primarily exists

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

I mean... come on

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

actually feel like WoW held back a lot compared to some other games.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

Skyrim has the same sort of issues. Like ... why does my lizard lady have tits.

polyphonic, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

have you ever played a Mario game??? also Punchout lololol.

zappi, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

theyre not?

Lamp, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

mario racist against turtles?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

well sure, WoW isn't like Duke Nukem, but the point is more that the whole "moving comic book" medium that their art direction is based upon is super normalized in how the genders should be represented, to the point where even for races where it doesn't make sense for the males to be burly he-men and the women to be curvy sexpots, they still are

also, there's the female night elf dance (which is based on the famous Alizee clips that were zooming around the Internet in the early 00s):

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

copying this over from the other thread because i thinks it a very interesting and good point to think abt

i wonder if part of it is because games are often a solo experience (though not always of course) whereas movies, at some point in their release cycle at least, are experienced collectively? in other words, because the casual racism is easier for people to swallow by themselves as opposed to in a group?

― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 8:29 PM (25 minutes ago)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

okay lol @ Mario being so mainstreamed that all of the "MAMA MIA" and "IT'SA ME, MARIO!" interjections don't even register as caricature anymore

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

i disagree w/ ZS's assertion esp bc i think the most racist/sexist behavior re video games happens in their most collective experience (multiplayer)

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah I think this is pretty easily chalked up to creators pandering to (and being born of) the overwhelmingly 15-35 male demographics of AAA game buyers. The women and men who like and play AAA games but don't like sexualized representations of women in these games (and also comic books) make their voices heard but the majority of the audience would be bummed if you took away their lizardwoman tits.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

duh DJP you cant be racist against italians anymore, the godfather fixed that forever

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

did Mario ever say those lines or are we forcing racism on the poor guy? are we blaming his video game char for his cartoon version? important issues in my work day

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

"it's a-me, Mario!" the sound of booting up Super Mario 64 iirc.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol gg then

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

fyi listening to that may drive you crazy

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

the Mario Kart one is also insane

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

"So long, gay Bowser!"

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

Alot of this sounds like hes sleeping with someone. *barfs*
PeachyzeldagirlXD 3 weeks ago

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

Do u say "ravioli!" when u fuckin?

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

did they really get roberto benigni to do the voices?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

Everybody knows that Mario's wet dreams involve pasta and Bowser.

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

I worked at a gaming geek/comic book store for a couple years and this kind of stuff is everywhere. the idea that females without massive bobs existed at some point is lost on these people

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha awesome typo

"I like the writer but does the artist have to make every female character's hair so big?"

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

i'ma luigi. nambar wan.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh man my old college roommate used to say "yeah, peach has got it" in a squeaky ass voice all the time. mad nostalgia.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

I never played the Horde side of WoW with any regularity so I didn't realize that the trolls were all Jamaican until way way late in the game when I started a troll character because I was bored. Reading the quest text for most of the starter area was PAINFUL.

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

there's a ton of gender normalization in movies too, yeah?

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

im def not saying that movies are immune but i dont think you can make the argument that movies even approach the overt O_O aspects of video games wrt either of these

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

(I also used to play WoW with the sound off and either Vent or iTunes going, so I missed a good chunk of the voice acting)

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh yeah for sure, and movies as a genre are much more mature. but it seems to me that anytime you throw a lot of money at a project (either a blockbuster movie or a blockbuster game) you're gonna end up w/ some pretty unreasonable gender representations

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's a good time to hate on the Asian man

Nhex, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 15:51 (6 months ago) Permalink

i wonder if this is more due to the fact that there's a sort of concept of the non-Japanese-east that is all pirate-y and stuff -- if this game was made by someone from north america, or europe, or even japan, it wouldn't be stealing -- it'd be "reference" or "homage" or something. but since he's from some place where they steal software and there's no "tacit knowledge" of the "relevance" of "video game" """history""" there it must be theft?

I've Seen rRootage (Will M.), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 17:01 (6 months ago) Permalink

idk i have a terrible head cold and that might not make any sense but :( @ ppl picking THAT particular nit, wtf, seriously.

i'd be interested to see if there was some precedent for this in western writing about eastern music, ie. "(person from asia) ripped off this part of this song" in the same breath as "(person from USA) sampled this song"

I've Seen rRootage (Will M.), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 17:04 (6 months ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/21/female-journalist-gets-rape-threats-over-comic-book-criticism.html

This is from the world of comic books, but this seems to be the most relevant thread to this topic. Dunno if it needs a parallel one on ilc.

glasses jacket jerfman (how's life), Friday, 25 April 2014 22:31 (3 months ago) Permalink

Because it was created by a straight white male, this checklist will likely be taken more seriously than if it had been written by virtually any female gamer.

http://www.polygon.com/2014/4/23/5640678/playing-with-privilege-the-invisible-benefits-of-gaming-while-male

bizarro gazzara, Saturday, 26 April 2014 20:07 (3 months ago) Permalink

I like this relevant Cracked podcast ep, as Jason Pargin begins to peck away at defining the problem:

http://www.earwolf.com/episode/shockingly-sexist-messages-in-the-modern-world/

Stephen King's Threaderstarter (kingfish), Sunday, 27 April 2014 16:51 (3 months ago) Permalink

porting the invisible knapsack to consoles

purposely lend impetus to my HOOS (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 28 April 2014 16:31 (3 months ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

http://www.wired.com/2014/05/fighting-online-harassment/

, Friday, 16 May 2014 03:19 (3 months ago) Permalink

iot found that persistently negative players were only responsible for roughly 13 percent of the game’s bad behavior. The other 87 percent was coming from players whose presence, most of the time, seemed to be generally inoffensive or even positive. These gamers were lashing out only occasionally, in isolated incidents—but their outbursts often snowballed through the community. Banning the worst trolls wouldn’t be enough to clean up League of Legends, Riot’s player behavior team realized. Nothing less than community-wide reforms could succeed.

, Friday, 16 May 2014 03:19 (3 months ago) Permalink

interesting

Nhex, Friday, 16 May 2014 04:53 (3 months ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

, Wednesday, 4 June 2014 11:16 (2 months ago) Permalink

France.

JimD, Wednesday, 4 June 2014 11:19 (2 months ago) Permalink

Seriously??

it definitely wasn't designed to be a pants pocket player (stevie), Wednesday, 4 June 2014 12:33 (2 months ago) Permalink

what am i looking at here

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Wednesday, 4 June 2014 12:59 (2 months ago) Permalink

oh igi. well, let's hope that was randomly generated, then --

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Wednesday, 4 June 2014 13:00 (2 months ago) Permalink

1 month passes...
1 month passes...

*rmde*

Nhex, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 19:40 (3 days ago) Permalink

Voice your comments below, but please, please keep it civil and free from personal attacks.

I mean is this just something that gets tacked to the end of everything written for this site, because it's completely against the gleeful "just desserts" vibe of the rest of the text

Star Gentle Uterus (DJP), Tuesday, 19 August 2014 20:17 (3 days ago) Permalink

i wasted 10 minutes of my breathing life scrolling through this dude's operatic 4 part tumblr post and didn't see anything about trading good press for sex? are they just inventing that out of the 'she had sex with a games writer' accusation or did i miss it?

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 20:36 (3 days ago) Permalink

no it's in there - but i don't think he accuses her of doing it for favors.

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 20:42 (3 days ago) Permalink

anyway, o_O at this thing. honestly i feel pretty bad for this dude. he got gaslit pretty bad.

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 20:42 (3 days ago) Permalink

on a scale of not-very-likely to utter horseshit this seems like utter horseshit

go ahead. make vid where u rap about this new TMNT movie. (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 19 August 2014 20:43 (3 days ago) Permalink

just checked that developer's twitter feed and she seems to have undergone/is undergoing a barrage of harassment from 4chan shitboys. i'll assume this blog post ref'ing a tumblr is trash

there's no mention of this on kotaku?

goole, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 20:43 (3 days ago) Permalink

"If you’re not a huge fan of Kotaku or the infamous social justice warrior / indie developer Zoe Quinn, you’re in for a treat."

grossest sentence

LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Tuesday, 19 August 2014 20:45 (3 days ago) Permalink

http://ohdeargodbees.tumblr.com/post/95188657119/once-again-i-will-not-negotiate-with-terrorists
basically, looks like the internet took the side of a douchebag ex-boyfriend in humiliating and degrading this woman, to no one's surprise

Nhex, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 20:46 (3 days ago) Permalink

i think as a rule that private relationships should be kept private and i don't think - whatever she did - that it deserved whatever kind of heat she's now getting from the psychopaths on 4chan. still, i find the guy's narrative very believable + sympathetic, and i can understand if he really went through that why he'd want to hurt her publicly. i still think trying to do so is a shitty thing to do, and appropriate for this thread.

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 20:54 (3 days ago) Permalink

cheating is bad and ugly breakups are bad but airing out your dirty laundry on the internet is fucking bitchmade and siccing the cheetoh-dust army on your ex who works in technology is evil

goole, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 20:59 (3 days ago) Permalink

yes, i agree. ppl are shit.

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 21:02 (3 days ago) Permalink

He's scum for taking it public. End of story.

EZ Snappin, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 21:02 (3 days ago) Permalink

trading good press for sex?

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, August 19, 2014 8:36 PM (23 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i don't think he accuses her of doing it for favors.

― Mordy, Tuesday, August 19, 2014 8:42 PM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ok soooo--if he *doesn't* accuse her of doing it for favors, the writers are inventing the quid pro quo? which isn't, say, airing your ex girlfriend's sexual history in a giant tumblr post and blasting it at 4chan knowing they'll spew horror at her level of crazy irresponsible and shitty and misgynistic, but is pretty irresponsible and shitty and misogynistic?

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 21:03 (3 days ago) Permalink

yeah when you have been wronged & lied to there's a strong impluse to LET THE WORLD KNOW but damn if some shame wouldn't be a perverse help to this guy right now. what is it with nerds and total disclosure these days? the "hypocrisy" of the normals has its uses, guys...

xp yeah i agree, i wasn't speaking against your post Mordy

goole, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 21:04 (3 days ago) Permalink

my basic takeaway is that most people involved in videogames should be set on fire, which is too bad because I really enjoy videogames and I think the screaming would keep me up at night

Star Gentle Uterus (DJP), Tuesday, 19 August 2014 21:06 (3 days ago) Permalink

GameBurner 2014 - The Baconing

go ahead. make vid where u rap about this new TMNT movie. (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 19 August 2014 21:18 (3 days ago) Permalink

RIP upper m m s

Xp

, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 21:28 (3 days ago) Permalink

a lot of ppl are upset bc in general the gaming media is horrible and it seems like a journalist gave a designer good publicity without disclosing that they were in a relationship. while i agree that the cheating + the lying + the gaslighting are probably not in the public interest, i can understand why ppl already enflamed about compromised journalistic standards would take interest in this story.

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 21:49 (3 days ago) Permalink

like i'm sure they didn't trade sexual favors for good coverage. the good coverage was pretty minimal and that seems unnecessarily vulgar. but i wasn't allowed to review books written by ppl i had once taken classes w/ in college years prior bc of the conflict of interest. otoh there seem to be far worse stuff going on in gaming media, like blatant payola for coverage stuff.

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 21:51 (3 days ago) Permalink

cheating is bad and ugly breakups are bad but airing out your dirty laundry on the internet is fucking bitchmade and siccing the cheetoh-dust army on your ex who works in technology is evil

― goole, Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:59 PM (51 minutes ago)

^^^

emil.y, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 22:15 (3 days ago) Permalink

can we not call it bitchmade tho like

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Wednesday, 20 August 2014 02:32 (2 days ago) Permalink

if she wasn't actually swapping sex for good reviews how are the original blog/this woeful gamerheadlines piece not slander or libellous? and either way, these pieces are just absolutely disgusting. her riposte is very strong and stirring, and she's right - she shouldn't have to defend any of this stuff in public.

i was a downy lad, and twee (stevie), Wednesday, 20 August 2014 10:40 (2 days ago) Permalink

Xp: can we also not be down on people who eat cheeto dust, while we're at it?

how's life, Wednesday, 20 August 2014 10:47 (2 days ago) Permalink

Yeah, actually, my eyes elided over 'bitchmade', probably because I have no idea what it means? Is it a US thing or am I just behind on my internet slang? Obv anything with 'bitch' is going to be at least a little problematic.

Anyway, the general thrust of goole's post is still OTM.

emil.y, Wednesday, 20 August 2014 11:23 (2 days ago) Permalink

also

Among them was current Kotaku writer Nathan Grayson, apparently solicitating sexual favours for positive press.

so solicitating is a word now?

i was a downy lad, and twee (stevie), Wednesday, 20 August 2014 11:26 (2 days ago) Permalink

also

leveraging her sexual connections

this guy's whole take on sex and women is unsurprisingly weird and awkward and how you might expect an extra terrestrial to discuss human behaviour when viewed from afar

i was a downy lad, and twee (stevie), Wednesday, 20 August 2014 11:28 (2 days ago) Permalink

also

is astonishingly asinine and self-serving bullshit

i was a downy lad, and twee (stevie), Wednesday, 20 August 2014 11:31 (2 days ago) Permalink

did i ever talk about how i went to my brother's convocation from college (diff in Canada, college != university, actually not 100% sure of the american analogue to this -- technical college? junior college? you can take anything from a 6mo bartending course to a 4y PR course) in this thread?

he convocated (sry not a word) with the entire media division of his school, he was in radio but i also saw the kids go up for tv, PR, advertising, etc etc etc including game design. as someone working in that field my heart was mildly warmed to see the bright new faces of the industry get their diploma-certificate-things. i was significantly less warmed to see more fedoras worn with gowns (2) than women (0). :( always reminded that the overwhelming sameness of the people working in the industry doesn't just start at the corporate level, it starts super super low. i was hoping, i guess?, that at the age newly graduating, the gap would be decreasing -- after all, everyone, not just boys of families with means, have had computers and internet from... almost birth at this point! and yet, something is still happening where the culture even at the education level is still homogenized. i dont get why the priv sector doesn't see this as a problem. of course tho investing in scholarships and grants for women would be seen as an attack on MENS RIGHTS or something idk. the whole thing BUMS ME OUT. :(

Neckbread (Will M.), Wednesday, 20 August 2014 14:56 (2 days ago) Permalink

i meant to say something a day ago re: "bitchmade" and didn't. it's an ugly coinage when unpacked even just a little. so, yeah.

goole, Friday, 22 August 2014 00:50 (18 hours ago) Permalink

in the '90s bitchmade meant 'awesome' (probably?)

polyphonic, Friday, 22 August 2014 03:00 (16 hours ago) Permalink


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