Why is casual racism/sexism more accepted in video games than other forms of media (these days)?

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High hopes for this turning out a smart and civil discussion like the horror films why not thread, deep fears that it will descend into madness fyi

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think it's bc games are competitive experiences and competition brings out the worst in human beings

― Mordy, Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:30 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

idk i obv have some pretty strong concerns abt that wrt online FPS screaming idiots and the like, but i dont think that has as much to do with the games themselves (i mean obv its part of the experience but it isnt internalized content per se)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

some of it is cultural differences/lack of knowledge between Asia and the West.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

do you guys mean disgusting behavior in players or the games?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

i mean ive heard some commentary on this but a lot of the big arguments are a little facile and outsidery to me, like the idea that games are a juvenilized form of entertainment and thus more prone to juvenile thinking

xxpost yeah bnw that is def one of the things that i think factors in

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

the sexism is definitely audience targeting. and it is depressingly dead on.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

i am talking abt the games, not the players, but obv there is going to be some reflection there wrt consumers influencing content etc

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's not just that consumers influence the content, it's also that game creators are gamers themselves and exist in the gaming community. they play on the same multiplayer servers and their customers, they're influenced by the same games...

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

-demographics.
-the fact that computer games, for fairly obvious reasons, attract less sophisticated writers than other forms of media.

zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

was the new deus ex french? or french canadian? because thats def one of the weirdest examples of this - fairly thoughtful intellectual game and then whoa whats up with this homeless lady

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

to be perjorative a bit, nerds' poor socialization extends to society broadly, not just socializing. and they get reeeaaally defensive when called on their shit.

combined with a post-rockstar "it's supposed to be funny!" attitude w/r/t this kind of shit and it's a toxic brew

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

A big hook for many games is "by gamers, for gamers"; this means almost by design that a good chunk of regressive content is going to be present in the games since they are operating in this feedback loop where the social environment these games are created in is normalized to be incredibly shitty in a lot of ways.

For all of the equality for things like, say, making your character be male or female is a cosmetic change that doesn't affect your stats, you have things like all of the female iterations of the WoW races being as close to "busty cutie-pie" as the baseline skin will allow them to be (the undead and dwarf races are particularly comical re: this, but even the frickin' minotaur race has "sexy" female forms with cow heads).

xposts basically covered all of this but I am inflicting the concept of sexy cows on y'all anyway

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

some of it is sort of legacy racism from the earlier forms of media that fed VGs? D&D, action movies, etc

xp oh god WoW haha

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

how do you guys rank sexism/racism by systems? nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

also, game content really not as important as ludic components (the best story can just barely redeem a game with terrible gameplay sometimes, while tons of beloved games have amazing gameplay and no story to speak of, or a really shitty story), so it's less important to designers to get stuff right with the content - which is where the racist/sexist stuff primarily exists

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

I mean... come on

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

actually feel like WoW held back a lot compared to some other games.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

Skyrim has the same sort of issues. Like ... why does my lizard lady have tits.

polyphonic, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

have you ever played a Mario game??? also Punchout lololol.

zappi, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

theyre not?

Lamp, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

mario racist against turtles?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

well sure, WoW isn't like Duke Nukem, but the point is more that the whole "moving comic book" medium that their art direction is based upon is super normalized in how the genders should be represented, to the point where even for races where it doesn't make sense for the males to be burly he-men and the women to be curvy sexpots, they still are

also, there's the female night elf dance (which is based on the famous Alizee clips that were zooming around the Internet in the early 00s):

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

copying this over from the other thread because i thinks it a very interesting and good point to think abt

i wonder if part of it is because games are often a solo experience (though not always of course) whereas movies, at some point in their release cycle at least, are experienced collectively? in other words, because the casual racism is easier for people to swallow by themselves as opposed to in a group?

― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 8:29 PM (25 minutes ago)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

okay lol @ Mario being so mainstreamed that all of the "MAMA MIA" and "IT'SA ME, MARIO!" interjections don't even register as caricature anymore

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

i disagree w/ ZS's assertion esp bc i think the most racist/sexist behavior re video games happens in their most collective experience (multiplayer)

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah I think this is pretty easily chalked up to creators pandering to (and being born of) the overwhelmingly 15-35 male demographics of AAA game buyers. The women and men who like and play AAA games but don't like sexualized representations of women in these games (and also comic books) make their voices heard but the majority of the audience would be bummed if you took away their lizardwoman tits.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

duh DJP you cant be racist against italians anymore, the godfather fixed that forever

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

did Mario ever say those lines or are we forcing racism on the poor guy? are we blaming his video game char for his cartoon version? important issues in my work day

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

"it's a-me, Mario!" the sound of booting up Super Mario 64 iirc.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol gg then

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

fyi listening to that may drive you crazy

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

the Mario Kart one is also insane

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

"So long, gay Bowser!"

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

Alot of this sounds like hes sleeping with someone. *barfs*
PeachyzeldagirlXD 3 weeks ago

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

Do u say "ravioli!" when u fuckin?

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

did they really get roberto benigni to do the voices?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

Everybody knows that Mario's wet dreams involve pasta and Bowser.

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

I worked at a gaming geek/comic book store for a couple years and this kind of stuff is everywhere. the idea that females without massive bobs existed at some point is lost on these people

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha awesome typo

"I like the writer but does the artist have to make every female character's hair so big?"

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

i'ma luigi. nambar wan.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh man my old college roommate used to say "yeah, peach has got it" in a squeaky ass voice all the time. mad nostalgia.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

I never played the Horde side of WoW with any regularity so I didn't realize that the trolls were all Jamaican until way way late in the game when I started a troll character because I was bored. Reading the quest text for most of the starter area was PAINFUL.

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

there's a ton of gender normalization in movies too, yeah?

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

im def not saying that movies are immune but i dont think you can make the argument that movies even approach the overt O_O aspects of video games wrt either of these

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

(I also used to play WoW with the sound off and either Vent or iTunes going, so I missed a good chunk of the voice acting)

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh yeah for sure, and movies as a genre are much more mature. but it seems to me that anytime you throw a lot of money at a project (either a blockbuster movie or a blockbuster game) you're gonna end up w/ some pretty unreasonable gender representations

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

Didn't see that coming.

iyo iyo un day (how's life), Tuesday, 24 February 2015 16:58 (5 days ago) Permalink

idk which dude this is, but this vid from the MDE people made it to contrlolz i think?

goole, Tuesday, 24 February 2015 17:15 (5 days ago) Permalink

a classic

goole, Tuesday, 24 February 2015 17:15 (5 days ago) Permalink

repeatedly threatening to kill someone is a pretty funny prank

no (Lamp), Tuesday, 24 February 2015 17:16 (5 days ago) Permalink

dude was only funny to the gamergate trolls who try to push others into becoming more unhinged, not the quote-unquote gamergate purists, those harassed by gamergate, or anyone outside of the world of gamergate

so in reality he is completely indistinguishable from an unhinged person capable of violence

mh, Tuesday, 24 February 2015 19:37 (5 days ago) Permalink

Let's hope he is making the most out of his 'infamy' at stealing and wrecking his mother's car. LOL

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 24 February 2015 20:02 (5 days ago) Permalink

I don't see how that is a 'character' of any sort he clearly isn't self aware about the situation in any way. He is claiming being victimized by one woman (has he ever met her?) while literally stealing and destroying the property of another (his mom).

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 24 February 2015 20:05 (5 days ago) Permalink

biddle hints they could be full of shit with this turn of events

http://internet.gawker.com/psychopath-who-harassed-brianna-wu-just-kidding-1687695961

goole, Tuesday, 24 February 2015 20:06 (5 days ago) Permalink

nobody's really asked what the deal is with the car

goole, Tuesday, 24 February 2015 20:06 (5 days ago) Permalink

I would imagine the more famous he gets the more trolls he is going to have to deal with, which is silver lining.

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 24 February 2015 20:11 (5 days ago) Permalink

Adam, did you read the earlier article goole linked? Dude claims he's playing a character that hates Briana Wu, he doesn't care either way, and he's mocking gamergaters by acting by a really unhinged one.

mh, Tuesday, 24 February 2015 20:47 (5 days ago) Permalink

So instead of a completely unhinged person who is making threats, he is an idiot who is less unhinged, doesn't take the personhood of any of these people seriously, and is making threats in character because he thinks it's funny.

Or so he claims?

mh, Tuesday, 24 February 2015 20:49 (5 days ago) Permalink

Tbh I'm trying not to pay attention to these sorts of trolls, i dont care if he is doing it ironically or has some clever twist on it, it's just an idiot contributing more noise into an already incoherent mess.

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 24 February 2015 20:49 (5 days ago) Permalink

I saw Tom Green when I was a teenager, I thought it was funny for a month and moved on

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 24 February 2015 20:50 (5 days ago) Permalink

basically saying Biddle's article completely otm

mh, Tuesday, 24 February 2015 20:53 (5 days ago) Permalink

this is all starting to remind me of my parents idiot ex-neighbor. he was on hold for a while after calling some company and as soon as he was able to talk to a representative, he made some "joke" to the effect of "Well, you wouldn't have had me on hold so long if I told you I put anthrax in your ventilation system."

This was around 2002. Said neighbor then proceeded to do some time in the federal penitentiary.

mh, Tuesday, 24 February 2015 20:57 (5 days ago) Permalink

holy shit

goole, Tuesday, 24 February 2015 20:58 (5 days ago) Permalink

The prison is part of the joke, it's a long-con.

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 24 February 2015 21:01 (5 days ago) Permalink

oh boy I never actually googled that
http://njlaw.rutgers.edu/collections/resource.org/fed_reporter/F3/381/381.F3d.404.html

mh, Tuesday, 24 February 2015 21:02 (5 days ago) Permalink

The defendant also argues that § 2332a is an unconstitutional use of Congress's powers under the Commerce Clause.

what could go wrong

goole, Tuesday, 24 February 2015 21:38 (5 days ago) Permalink

Through the lens of GamerGate

you can buy your hair if it won't grow (Sufjan Grafton), Tuesday, 24 February 2015 21:39 (5 days ago) Permalink

IT WAS A GOOF

lil urbane (Jordan), Tuesday, 24 February 2015 21:42 (5 days ago) Permalink

See now mh's neighb story is what pisses me off about all this. Guy makes one anthrax joke on the phone and gets time in the slammer.

Guys make endless, repeated, direct threats of death and rape to women online here and... nothing? Cops say 'stop looking at it'? People say "trolls wll b trolls"? Fucks sake.

I checked Snoops , and it is for real (Trayce), Tuesday, 24 February 2015 21:59 (5 days ago) Permalink

well, he did say this less than one month after someone sent anthrax to people in the US

mh, Tuesday, 24 February 2015 22:13 (5 days ago) Permalink

whereas we're def at 31+ days without incident when it comes to violence against US women. good job USA!

resulting post (rogermexico.), Tuesday, 24 February 2015 22:14 (5 days ago) Permalink

that is... not what I was implying

mh, Tuesday, 24 February 2015 22:19 (5 days ago) Permalink

oh fuck is accuracy the standard for cheap zings now?

resulting post (rogermexico.), Tuesday, 24 February 2015 22:36 (5 days ago) Permalink

wtf

I checked Snoops , and it is for real (Trayce), Tuesday, 24 February 2015 23:04 (5 days ago) Permalink

you used violence against women for a cheap zing? not parsing something right here.

mh, Wednesday, 25 February 2015 01:45 (4 days ago) Permalink

The difference between writing something on the internet and calling a 30-year-old national mortgage company and verbally saying something is pretty great. For one thing I'm sure Countrywide has a strict policy about what to do when someone says something like that. Their entire business is based around stability and mitigating risk.

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 25 February 2015 02:30 (4 days ago) Permalink

Also LOL at the number 2 result when I googled Countrywide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countrywide_financial_political_loan_scandal

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 25 February 2015 02:31 (4 days ago) Permalink

But thats the point, why should it be? Why is it any less punishable on social media?

And for that matter, thats bollocks, given that kid who posted the cop and gun emojis on FB and got arrested for it.

I checked Snoops , and it is for real (Trayce), Wednesday, 25 February 2015 02:37 (4 days ago) Permalink

Social media is not reality

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 25 February 2015 02:39 (4 days ago) Permalink

because people don't think of words against women as imminent threats and local police are either uninformed, unequipped, or biased

federal action is a decent option and it looks like the FBI is in the loop on some recent cases, especially viable due to the interstate nature of internet threats.

women getting harmed as a result of a direct threat from strangers online should be actionable! but to an extent, local police are right -- harm comes usually from people known to the victim, and they're poorly trained to filter the outliers.

mh, Wednesday, 25 February 2015 02:44 (4 days ago) Permalink

also police are really self-protecting and reactionary, them construing anything other than praise as a threat is kind of their standard.

mh, Wednesday, 25 February 2015 02:45 (4 days ago) Permalink

Social media is not reality

Bullshit.

I checked Snoops , and it is for real (Trayce), Wednesday, 25 February 2015 02:45 (4 days ago) Permalink

I think he meant that sarcastically but AB speaks in very strictly worded screeds so idk

mh, Wednesday, 25 February 2015 02:49 (4 days ago) Permalink

Oh ok, if that is so, my apologies. Irony is hard to read on here.

I checked Snoops , and it is for real (Trayce), Wednesday, 25 February 2015 02:54 (4 days ago) Permalink

I just mean there is a difference between telling someone personally with your own voice vs. posting a video that reaches a thousand people simultaneously and is admittedly not posted in full faith.

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 25 February 2015 02:57 (4 days ago) Permalink

The police are also there to protect moneyed interests, of which a mortgage company is #1. Versus, say, a video game commentator.

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 25 February 2015 02:59 (4 days ago) Permalink

Yeah, if it is someone you know you can gauge their intent, with a stranger you can't tell, absent past interaction or public history, whether they are a wackjob who will drive across country to kill you.

mh, Wednesday, 25 February 2015 02:59 (4 days ago) Permalink

Just because twitter has a wide audience does not diminish the fact the threats in question are clearly directed at a specific person!

Not to mention some of the women having gotten privately sent emails/messages/videos of genuine threat. Are they also no real?

I checked Snoops , and it is for real (Trayce), Wednesday, 25 February 2015 03:00 (4 days ago) Permalink

No they are definitely real. Maybe I should have said "Not of importance to authority figures" instead.

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 25 February 2015 03:02 (4 days ago) Permalink

I mean, look at the writings or Internet comments of any spree shooter. People might say all kinds of shit, but some of them are completely for real, and it's not random citizen's ability to tell which is which.

mh, Wednesday, 25 February 2015 03:02 (4 days ago) Permalink

OK I accept theyre not "real" to the authorities, but that just goes back to the point I was making. They should be.

I checked Snoops , and it is for real (Trayce), Wednesday, 25 February 2015 03:14 (4 days ago) Permalink

Is threats over a carriage service not a crime in the US? It is in my country.

I checked Snoops , and it is for real (Trayce), Wednesday, 25 February 2015 03:14 (4 days ago) Permalink

offs people.

mh, the zing was cheap in that i understood your intent was not to trivialize non-anthrax threats

resulting post (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 25 February 2015 03:19 (4 days ago) Permalink

The US justice system has a great deal of issues, particularly at the moment. I am putting this extremely lightly.

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 25 February 2015 03:21 (4 days ago) Permalink

ah, I rest my arguments

also when I read carriage I thought of a horse and buggy

mh, Wednesday, 25 February 2015 03:22 (4 days ago) Permalink

lol @ "particularly at the moment"

mh, Wednesday, 25 February 2015 03:23 (4 days ago) Permalink


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