Why is casual racism/sexism more accepted in video games than other forms of media (these days)?

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High hopes for this turning out a smart and civil discussion like the horror films why not thread, deep fears that it will descend into madness fyi

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:32 (4 years ago) Permalink

i think it's bc games are competitive experiences and competition brings out the worst in human beings

― Mordy, Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:30 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:34 (4 years ago) Permalink

idk i obv have some pretty strong concerns abt that wrt online FPS screaming idiots and the like, but i dont think that has as much to do with the games themselves (i mean obv its part of the experience but it isnt internalized content per se)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:36 (4 years ago) Permalink

some of it is cultural differences/lack of knowledge between Asia and the West.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:39 (4 years ago) Permalink

do you guys mean disgusting behavior in players or the games?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:40 (4 years ago) Permalink

i mean ive heard some commentary on this but a lot of the big arguments are a little facile and outsidery to me, like the idea that games are a juvenilized form of entertainment and thus more prone to juvenile thinking

xxpost yeah bnw that is def one of the things that i think factors in

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (4 years ago) Permalink

the sexism is definitely audience targeting. and it is depressingly dead on.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (4 years ago) Permalink

i am talking abt the games, not the players, but obv there is going to be some reflection there wrt consumers influencing content etc

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:42 (4 years ago) Permalink

it's not just that consumers influence the content, it's also that game creators are gamers themselves and exist in the gaming community. they play on the same multiplayer servers and their customers, they're influenced by the same games...

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (4 years ago) Permalink

-demographics.
-the fact that computer games, for fairly obvious reasons, attract less sophisticated writers than other forms of media.

zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (4 years ago) Permalink

was the new deus ex french? or french canadian? because thats def one of the weirdest examples of this - fairly thoughtful intellectual game and then whoa whats up with this homeless lady

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:44 (4 years ago) Permalink

to be perjorative a bit, nerds' poor socialization extends to society broadly, not just socializing. and they get reeeaaally defensive when called on their shit.

combined with a post-rockstar "it's supposed to be funny!" attitude w/r/t this kind of shit and it's a toxic brew

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:45 (4 years ago) Permalink

A big hook for many games is "by gamers, for gamers"; this means almost by design that a good chunk of regressive content is going to be present in the games since they are operating in this feedback loop where the social environment these games are created in is normalized to be incredibly shitty in a lot of ways.

For all of the equality for things like, say, making your character be male or female is a cosmetic change that doesn't affect your stats, you have things like all of the female iterations of the WoW races being as close to "busty cutie-pie" as the baseline skin will allow them to be (the undead and dwarf races are particularly comical re: this, but even the frickin' minotaur race has "sexy" female forms with cow heads).

xposts basically covered all of this but I am inflicting the concept of sexy cows on y'all anyway

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:46 (4 years ago) Permalink

some of it is sort of legacy racism from the earlier forms of media that fed VGs? D&D, action movies, etc

xp oh god WoW haha

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:47 (4 years ago) Permalink

how do you guys rank sexism/racism by systems? nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:48 (4 years ago) Permalink

also, game content really not as important as ludic components (the best story can just barely redeem a game with terrible gameplay sometimes, while tons of beloved games have amazing gameplay and no story to speak of, or a really shitty story), so it's less important to designers to get stuff right with the content - which is where the racist/sexist stuff primarily exists

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (4 years ago) Permalink

I mean... come on

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (4 years ago) Permalink

actually feel like WoW held back a lot compared to some other games.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:50 (4 years ago) Permalink

Skyrim has the same sort of issues. Like ... why does my lizard lady have tits.

polyphonic, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:51 (4 years ago) Permalink

nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

have you ever played a Mario game??? also Punchout lololol.

zappi, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:52 (4 years ago) Permalink

theyre not?

Lamp, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (4 years ago) Permalink

mario racist against turtles?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (4 years ago) Permalink

well sure, WoW isn't like Duke Nukem, but the point is more that the whole "moving comic book" medium that their art direction is based upon is super normalized in how the genders should be represented, to the point where even for races where it doesn't make sense for the males to be burly he-men and the women to be curvy sexpots, they still are

also, there's the female night elf dance (which is based on the famous Alizee clips that were zooming around the Internet in the early 00s):

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (4 years ago) Permalink

copying this over from the other thread because i thinks it a very interesting and good point to think abt

i wonder if part of it is because games are often a solo experience (though not always of course) whereas movies, at some point in their release cycle at least, are experienced collectively? in other words, because the casual racism is easier for people to swallow by themselves as opposed to in a group?

― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 8:29 PM (25 minutes ago)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (4 years ago) Permalink

okay lol @ Mario being so mainstreamed that all of the "MAMA MIA" and "IT'SA ME, MARIO!" interjections don't even register as caricature anymore

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (4 years ago) Permalink

i disagree w/ ZS's assertion esp bc i think the most racist/sexist behavior re video games happens in their most collective experience (multiplayer)

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (4 years ago) Permalink

Yeah I think this is pretty easily chalked up to creators pandering to (and being born of) the overwhelmingly 15-35 male demographics of AAA game buyers. The women and men who like and play AAA games but don't like sexualized representations of women in these games (and also comic books) make their voices heard but the majority of the audience would be bummed if you took away their lizardwoman tits.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (4 years ago) Permalink

duh DJP you cant be racist against italians anymore, the godfather fixed that forever

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:58 (4 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:59 (4 years ago) Permalink

did Mario ever say those lines or are we forcing racism on the poor guy? are we blaming his video game char for his cartoon version? important issues in my work day

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:00 (4 years ago) Permalink

"it's a-me, Mario!" the sound of booting up Super Mario 64 iirc.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:01 (4 years ago) Permalink

haha

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (4 years ago) Permalink

lol gg then

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (4 years ago) Permalink

fyi listening to that may drive you crazy

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:03 (4 years ago) Permalink

the Mario Kart one is also insane

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (4 years ago) Permalink

"So long, gay Bowser!"

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (4 years ago) Permalink

Alot of this sounds like hes sleeping with someone. *barfs*
PeachyzeldagirlXD 3 weeks ago

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:06 (4 years ago) Permalink

Do u say "ravioli!" when u fuckin?

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (4 years ago) Permalink

did they really get roberto benigni to do the voices?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (4 years ago) Permalink

Everybody knows that Mario's wet dreams involve pasta and Bowser.

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:08 (4 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

I worked at a gaming geek/comic book store for a couple years and this kind of stuff is everywhere. the idea that females without massive bobs existed at some point is lost on these people

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:11 (4 years ago) Permalink

haha awesome typo

"I like the writer but does the artist have to make every female character's hair so big?"

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:12 (4 years ago) Permalink

i'ma luigi. nambar wan.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:14 (4 years ago) Permalink

oh man my old college roommate used to say "yeah, peach has got it" in a squeaky ass voice all the time. mad nostalgia.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (4 years ago) Permalink

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (4 years ago) Permalink

I never played the Horde side of WoW with any regularity so I didn't realize that the trolls were all Jamaican until way way late in the game when I started a troll character because I was bored. Reading the quest text for most of the starter area was PAINFUL.

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (4 years ago) Permalink

there's a ton of gender normalization in movies too, yeah?

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (4 years ago) Permalink

im def not saying that movies are immune but i dont think you can make the argument that movies even approach the overt O_O aspects of video games wrt either of these

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:18 (4 years ago) Permalink

(I also used to play WoW with the sound off and either Vent or iTunes going, so I missed a good chunk of the voice acting)

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:19 (4 years ago) Permalink

oh yeah for sure, and movies as a genre are much more mature. but it seems to me that anytime you throw a lot of money at a project (either a blockbuster movie or a blockbuster game) you're gonna end up w/ some pretty unreasonable gender representations

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:20 (4 years ago) Permalink

Ah no, Overwatch has been designed very much around being one of everyone. That's why the original complaint mentions that there are eg sexy assassin ladies in Overwatch, but Tracer's not actually (been presented as) one of them.

Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 6 April 2016 15:14 (1 month ago) Permalink

There's a giant Russian female bodybuilder, a Korean pro-gamer with a mecha, an Egyptian jet pack security guard, a Swiss medic in a wingsuit, a French sniper, an English pilot, a Chinese climate scientist, and that's just the women. It's ridiculous.

other people systems as applicable (El Tomboto), Wednesday, 6 April 2016 15:55 (1 month ago) Permalink

From the article it sounds like the character/cinematics shop just started drawing superhero ideas on the wall and then later decided to make a Team FPS with MOBA elements out of it.

other people systems as applicable (El Tomboto), Wednesday, 6 April 2016 15:58 (1 month ago) Permalink

interesting, I figured it was the gameplay ppl just spitballing, and then the story side threw together some bios and decided why these people are fighting and wtf they are fighting for

μpright mammal (mh), Wednesday, 6 April 2016 16:14 (1 month ago) Permalink

they've definitely shifted into a "let's create an ongoing property" model, with recognizable characters showing up in other games

why make a generic RTS like warcraft when you can make some characters and then plop them into a card game, a RTS, a MMO, with a built-in audience that plays multiple game types! and the stuffed animals and action figures are for fans of any of the games

μpright mammal (mh), Wednesday, 6 April 2016 16:17 (1 month ago) Permalink

valve kinda stole their MOBA based on their own characters when they somehow judo flipped Dota 2 into their own IP. theyre also doing it in hearthstone and heroes of the storm.

overwatch is another animal, but I guess tracer is gonna be in heros of the storm as well.

carthago delenda est (mayor jingleberries), Friday, 8 April 2016 01:07 (4 weeks ago) Permalink

Rust developers are heroes

disco Polo (Noodle Vague), Monday, 11 April 2016 12:45 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

we get the heroes we deserve

Neil S, Monday, 11 April 2016 13:17 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

MIND BLOWN, I know

Neil S, Monday, 11 April 2016 13:19 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

heh, that's awesome

"We understand this is a sore subject for a lot of people. We understand that you may now be a gender that you don’t identify with in real-life. We understand this causes you distress and makes you not want to play the game anymore," they said. "Technically nothing has changed, since half the population was already living with those feelings. The only difference is that whether you feel like this is now decided by your SteamID instead of your real life gender."

a lad of balls (bizarro gazzara), Monday, 11 April 2016 13:34 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

, Sunday, 17 April 2016 12:57 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

great sage equal to heaven (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 17 April 2016 13:00 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

That FB chat screenshot... is that guy whining that girls never play the games they buy because she didnt reply to him after 5-10 minutes!?

Interesting. No, wait, the other thing: tedious. (Trayce), Monday, 18 April 2016 06:03 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

probably too busy playing games instead of complaining about them on fb

μpright mammal (mh), Monday, 18 April 2016 13:58 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

trayce it's worse than that really

Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Monday, 18 April 2016 14:28 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

the guy is actually whining because she wasn't there to instantly answer his questions on facebook. men deserve timely responses to their questions.

μpright mammal (mh), Monday, 18 April 2016 14:32 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

feeling really great about my relative anonymity online, and lucky i've never had to deal w/ any bullshit

http://nymag.com/following/2016/04/how-social-autopsy-fell-for-gamergate-trutherism.html

because clusterfucks like this are so disheartening on a deep level

goole, Monday, 18 April 2016 20:48 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

reading that was super depressing but the last sentence made me lol

i like to trump and i am crazy (DJP), Monday, 18 April 2016 21:00 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Yeah, very depressing. The original idea was a fucking terrible idea, too.

emil.y, Monday, 18 April 2016 21:58 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I've read the Social Autopsy 'exposé' blog post as well, and it basically has no new information that isn't listed in the nymag article. Just a series of "COINCIDENCE? I THINK NOT" accusations. I'm sure she meant well, but her idea was awful and dangerous and now she seems like a complete crank.

emil.y, Monday, 18 April 2016 22:02 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

ugh that.. gave me a headache

Nhex, Tuesday, 19 April 2016 00:25 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

to be fair, the "people making anonymous shitty comments" problem is very real and widespread, and localized personal bullying of the type where kids (and adults) stalk and harass people they know is given a new dimension with online commenting/messaging

that's a very small portion of the world of online harassment, though. and people versed in the whole spectrum of online harassment -- as the targets of gamergate definitely are -- would have a lot to contribute, including knowledge of the gaslighting, reverse-sympathy ploys they're targeted by regularly. and "social autopsy" seems to have fallen for their tactics, completely

μpright mammal (mh), Tuesday, 19 April 2016 00:28 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

that story is so bizarre though
harassment victim starts kickstarter for funding the doxxing of online bullies
...while unaware of what doxxing is, and that it actually a preferred tactic of what hate mobs do nowawdays
...then buys into hate mob conspiracies that targets prominent anti-bullying victims
...who she then goes into accusing of leading a racist hate mob against her...
the stupidity of this is off the charts

one of the sad/funny observations from the reporter how this woman's conceptions of online bullying are already outdated, she was mostly familiar with anonymous facebook comments - so quaint in these days of Swatting and obscene phone calls to your mother and boss in the middle of the night

Nhex, Tuesday, 19 April 2016 00:39 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

quaint but still an issue, even if it seems relatively benign to the more jaded of us

μpright mammal (mh), Tuesday, 19 April 2016 02:11 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Yeah she comes across as someone very young/inexperienced so to read she is 26 suprised me.Maybe I'm just too immersed in this stuff, but she's really misread everything and it seems plain as day.

Interesting. No, wait, the other thing: tedious. (Trayce), Tuesday, 19 April 2016 06:30 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

The weirdest part was I assumed the tweet screenshots were made by a GG guy, until I got further down in the story.

Interesting. No, wait, the other thing: tedious. (Trayce), Tuesday, 19 April 2016 06:47 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

a psychologist speaks "women in tech are often "fatally compromised with victimology psychosis."" http://www.polygon.com/2016/4/18/11452564/would-you-want-to-work-for-this-guy

Neil S, Tuesday, 19 April 2016 12:19 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

*toilet flush emoji*

μpright mammal (mh), Tuesday, 19 April 2016 13:34 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

a true shitbag

Nhex, Tuesday, 19 April 2016 13:44 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

lol WildTangent founder thinks games are art

some men just want to watch the world Bern (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 April 2016 16:21 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Ugh this guy. I can't begin to imagine how sheltered the lives of modern technology employees must be to think that any amount of hours they spend pushing a mouse around for a paycheck is really demanding strenuous work," he writes.

...because working for 24 hours without sleep and a break, regardless of wether you're just "pushing a mouse" (wtffff) is just FINNNNNE. Tell that to my ex who almost had a breakdown because of cunty bosses with attitudes like yours mate.

Interesting. No, wait, the other thing: tedious. (Trayce), Tuesday, 19 April 2016 23:10 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

On the one hand, great photo for that piece. On the other hand, that guy had somebody take that photo - no need to write the piece, really

bothan zulu (El Tomboto), Friday, 22 April 2016 00:47 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Yeah all thats missing from that pic is a fedora tbrh

Interesting. No, wait, the other thing: tedious. (Trayce), Friday, 22 April 2016 00:58 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

there were some really great alex st. john pictures in pc gamer magazine back in the day. you know, when all video game developers had to be interviewed with really dramatic lighting, looking like they were weird digital messiah figures

μpright mammal (mh), Friday, 22 April 2016 14:22 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

haha omg:
https://medium.com/@milistjohn/i-am-alex-st-john-s-daughter-and-he-is-wrong-about-women-in-tech-4728545e7c0e#.oenw3y9qj

My name is Amilia St. John and I am the daughter of Alex St. John. Yes, that one. For those not following the horrific toddler meltdown my father has been very publicly broadcasting over the past few days, here is a short summary

μpright mammal (mh), Friday, 22 April 2016 14:22 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Yeah that owns

Sean, let me be clear (silby), Friday, 22 April 2016 14:34 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

<3

emil.y, Friday, 22 April 2016 15:49 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

amilia st. john otm

the world’s youngest hyper-polyglot (bizarro gazzara), Saturday, 23 April 2016 07:39 (1 week ago) Permalink

Yeah, this has gone over the line to making fun of someone with definite mental problems, IMHO.

Andrew Farrell, Monday, 25 April 2016 23:42 (1 week ago) Permalink

somehow she went from a social campaign to stop bullying to reacting so harshly to the first person that questioned her methods that she allied herself with white supremacists and proud misogynists

μpright mammal (mh), Tuesday, 26 April 2016 00:48 (1 week ago) Permalink

When Tuck Bingle receives and email explaining that he’s been nominated for science fiction literature’s most prestigious award, he’s left utterly confused. On one hand, Tuck is a successful writer of gay, science fiction erotic, but on the other, this email is addressed to someone by the name of Chuck Tingle.

Tuck replies, but his message is not delivered because the recipient exists in another layer of The Tingleverse, a revelation that will take Tuck on a journey into the deepest realms of his butt’s heart.

Soon, Tuck is breaking fourth-walls and anal limits, pounded hard by a handsome sentient Hugo Award nomination named Kelpo and learning the true meaning of homoerotic love!

This erotic tale is 4,500 words of sizzling human on prestigious award nomination action, including anal, blowjobs, rough sex, cream pies and gay interdimensional love.

jmm, Monday, 2 May 2016 21:02 (4 days ago) Permalink

Is Chuck Tingle this year's "no award" vote? Time will tell

μpright mammal (mh), Monday, 2 May 2016 21:25 (4 days ago) Permalink

Well played:

https://twitter.com/ChuckTingle/status/728252133003272193

Andrew Farrell, Friday, 6 May 2016 13:41 (8 hours ago) Permalink

bwahaha

μpright mammal (mh), Friday, 6 May 2016 15:09 (7 hours ago) Permalink

chuck tingle for president

i do not sense the entity ted (bizarro gazzara), Friday, 6 May 2016 15:13 (7 hours ago) Permalink

i feel like this should be redundant by now but just in case: don't read the comments

i do not sense the entity ted (bizarro gazzara), Friday, 6 May 2016 15:19 (7 hours ago) Permalink

Read the comments. Always read the comments.

i like to trump and i am crazy (DJP), Friday, 6 May 2016 22:30 (30 seconds ago) Permalink


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