Why is casual racism/sexism more accepted in video games than other forms of media (these days)?

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High hopes for this turning out a smart and civil discussion like the horror films why not thread, deep fears that it will descend into madness fyi

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think it's bc games are competitive experiences and competition brings out the worst in human beings

― Mordy, Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:30 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

idk i obv have some pretty strong concerns abt that wrt online FPS screaming idiots and the like, but i dont think that has as much to do with the games themselves (i mean obv its part of the experience but it isnt internalized content per se)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

some of it is cultural differences/lack of knowledge between Asia and the West.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

do you guys mean disgusting behavior in players or the games?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

i mean ive heard some commentary on this but a lot of the big arguments are a little facile and outsidery to me, like the idea that games are a juvenilized form of entertainment and thus more prone to juvenile thinking

xxpost yeah bnw that is def one of the things that i think factors in

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

the sexism is definitely audience targeting. and it is depressingly dead on.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

i am talking abt the games, not the players, but obv there is going to be some reflection there wrt consumers influencing content etc

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's not just that consumers influence the content, it's also that game creators are gamers themselves and exist in the gaming community. they play on the same multiplayer servers and their customers, they're influenced by the same games...

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

-demographics.
-the fact that computer games, for fairly obvious reasons, attract less sophisticated writers than other forms of media.

zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

was the new deus ex french? or french canadian? because thats def one of the weirdest examples of this - fairly thoughtful intellectual game and then whoa whats up with this homeless lady

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

to be perjorative a bit, nerds' poor socialization extends to society broadly, not just socializing. and they get reeeaaally defensive when called on their shit.

combined with a post-rockstar "it's supposed to be funny!" attitude w/r/t this kind of shit and it's a toxic brew

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

A big hook for many games is "by gamers, for gamers"; this means almost by design that a good chunk of regressive content is going to be present in the games since they are operating in this feedback loop where the social environment these games are created in is normalized to be incredibly shitty in a lot of ways.

For all of the equality for things like, say, making your character be male or female is a cosmetic change that doesn't affect your stats, you have things like all of the female iterations of the WoW races being as close to "busty cutie-pie" as the baseline skin will allow them to be (the undead and dwarf races are particularly comical re: this, but even the frickin' minotaur race has "sexy" female forms with cow heads).

xposts basically covered all of this but I am inflicting the concept of sexy cows on y'all anyway

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

some of it is sort of legacy racism from the earlier forms of media that fed VGs? D&D, action movies, etc

xp oh god WoW haha

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

how do you guys rank sexism/racism by systems? nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

also, game content really not as important as ludic components (the best story can just barely redeem a game with terrible gameplay sometimes, while tons of beloved games have amazing gameplay and no story to speak of, or a really shitty story), so it's less important to designers to get stuff right with the content - which is where the racist/sexist stuff primarily exists

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

I mean... come on

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

actually feel like WoW held back a lot compared to some other games.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

Skyrim has the same sort of issues. Like ... why does my lizard lady have tits.

polyphonic, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

have you ever played a Mario game??? also Punchout lololol.

zappi, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

theyre not?

Lamp, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

mario racist against turtles?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

well sure, WoW isn't like Duke Nukem, but the point is more that the whole "moving comic book" medium that their art direction is based upon is super normalized in how the genders should be represented, to the point where even for races where it doesn't make sense for the males to be burly he-men and the women to be curvy sexpots, they still are

also, there's the female night elf dance (which is based on the famous Alizee clips that were zooming around the Internet in the early 00s):

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

copying this over from the other thread because i thinks it a very interesting and good point to think abt

i wonder if part of it is because games are often a solo experience (though not always of course) whereas movies, at some point in their release cycle at least, are experienced collectively? in other words, because the casual racism is easier for people to swallow by themselves as opposed to in a group?

― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 8:29 PM (25 minutes ago)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

okay lol @ Mario being so mainstreamed that all of the "MAMA MIA" and "IT'SA ME, MARIO!" interjections don't even register as caricature anymore

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

i disagree w/ ZS's assertion esp bc i think the most racist/sexist behavior re video games happens in their most collective experience (multiplayer)

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah I think this is pretty easily chalked up to creators pandering to (and being born of) the overwhelmingly 15-35 male demographics of AAA game buyers. The women and men who like and play AAA games but don't like sexualized representations of women in these games (and also comic books) make their voices heard but the majority of the audience would be bummed if you took away their lizardwoman tits.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

duh DJP you cant be racist against italians anymore, the godfather fixed that forever

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

did Mario ever say those lines or are we forcing racism on the poor guy? are we blaming his video game char for his cartoon version? important issues in my work day

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

"it's a-me, Mario!" the sound of booting up Super Mario 64 iirc.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol gg then

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

fyi listening to that may drive you crazy

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

the Mario Kart one is also insane

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

"So long, gay Bowser!"

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

Alot of this sounds like hes sleeping with someone. *barfs*
PeachyzeldagirlXD 3 weeks ago

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

Do u say "ravioli!" when u fuckin?

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

did they really get roberto benigni to do the voices?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

Everybody knows that Mario's wet dreams involve pasta and Bowser.

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

I worked at a gaming geek/comic book store for a couple years and this kind of stuff is everywhere. the idea that females without massive bobs existed at some point is lost on these people

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha awesome typo

"I like the writer but does the artist have to make every female character's hair so big?"

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

i'ma luigi. nambar wan.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh man my old college roommate used to say "yeah, peach has got it" in a squeaky ass voice all the time. mad nostalgia.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

I never played the Horde side of WoW with any regularity so I didn't realize that the trolls were all Jamaican until way way late in the game when I started a troll character because I was bored. Reading the quest text for most of the starter area was PAINFUL.

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

there's a ton of gender normalization in movies too, yeah?

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

im def not saying that movies are immune but i dont think you can make the argument that movies even approach the overt O_O aspects of video games wrt either of these

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

(I also used to play WoW with the sound off and either Vent or iTunes going, so I missed a good chunk of the voice acting)

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh yeah for sure, and movies as a genre are much more mature. but it seems to me that anytime you throw a lot of money at a project (either a blockbuster movie or a blockbuster game) you're gonna end up w/ some pretty unreasonable gender representations

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

/s

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 17 March 2015 21:50 (1 week ago) Permalink

the sjw industrial complex remunerates me well sure but i wld do it for free such is my fiery hatred for all gamors

lag∞n, Tuesday, 17 March 2015 21:53 (1 week ago) Permalink

literally every video game is a hate crime and should be prosecuted as such

Clay, Tuesday, 17 March 2015 22:00 (1 week ago) Permalink

video games instead of having "cool computer graphics" should instead euthanize their players

lag∞n, Tuesday, 17 March 2015 22:02 (1 week ago) Permalink

I played a video game once, as a child, and now choose to wear a mask in public

Clay, Tuesday, 17 March 2015 22:04 (1 week ago) Permalink

not dark souls though

Maybe in 100 years someone will say damn Dawn was dope. (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 17 March 2015 22:06 (1 week ago) Permalink

"cool computer graphics"

source plz

polyphonic, Tuesday, 17 March 2015 22:06 (1 week ago) Permalink

It's actually something I'm working on quantifying at this time.

lag∞n, Tuesday, 17 March 2015 22:08 (1 week ago) Permalink

the current state of sjws vs. comics, btw

http://comicsalliance.com/the-vocal-minority-and-artistic-integrity-in-comics/

toucan orca ink (how's life), Tuesday, 17 March 2015 22:11 (1 week ago) Permalink

Comics are just a glorified R&D/loss leader for movies now anyway

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 17 March 2015 22:24 (1 week ago) Permalink

xp that story makes a little more sense if you see the actual Killing Joke-inspired cover:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/dc-comics-cancels-batgirl-joker-variant-at-artists-request

Nhex, Wednesday, 18 March 2015 04:38 (1 week ago) Permalink

oh ok the cover was linked halfway through the article (really should've been at the top) but i get why it was pulled

Nhex, Wednesday, 18 March 2015 04:42 (1 week ago) Permalink

that cover is pretty fucked up, bad call. Is batgirl worth reading now?

Maybe in 100 years someone will say damn Dawn was dope. (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 18 March 2015 05:16 (1 week ago) Permalink

I dunno, its no worse than anything Moore would do, whats the big deal?

I checked Snoops , and it is for real (Trayce), Wednesday, 18 March 2015 05:20 (1 week ago) Permalink

At least one part of it completely highlights the bullshit direction DC went with Nu52 which contrasts so severely with that of the revamped book, and the reaching out they're trying to do with some of the newer titles

Delbert Gravy (kingfish), Wednesday, 18 March 2015 06:45 (1 week ago) Permalink

if any of you are interested in following this mess still, i recommend damion schubert's blog.

http://www.zenofdesign.com/mark-kern-really-wants-gamergators-to-be-able-to-yell-at-harassment-victims/

goole, Wednesday, 18 March 2015 19:15 (1 week ago) Permalink

jesus christ these nutballs have gone down the rabbit hole

https://8ch.net/gg/res/636815.html

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 25 March 2015 20:16 (Yesterday) Permalink

what is the jist? no way am I clicking on that url

mh, Wednesday, 25 March 2015 20:20 (Yesterday) Permalink

Have you ever wondered how the mainstream gaming media became so hostile to gamers? You can point the finger at the London-based conglomerate United Business Media (UBM), the umbrella corporation to GamerGate’s Jill Valentine. For the past several years, UBM has been clandestinely operating or funding SJW gaming organizations such as Gamasutra, the IGDA and the Games Developer Conference, giving them enormous influence in the industry. Reaxxion is the first publication to expose UBM and the ways they’ve been manipulating the video game industry.

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 25 March 2015 20:23 (Yesterday) Permalink

...and gets way more insane conspiracy theory from there

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 25 March 2015 20:23 (Yesterday) Permalink

oh, of course

mh, Wednesday, 25 March 2015 20:29 (Yesterday) Permalink

ums do you take that sweet UBM money? how did you find this link? we need answers

mh, Wednesday, 25 March 2015 20:30 (Yesterday) Permalink

jesus, clicking around in there is unpleasant

Maybe in 100 years someone will say damn Dawn was dope. (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 25 March 2015 20:58 (Yesterday) Permalink

Think about it in terms of strategic planning:

a) You know that the US/west EU games industry is going to undergo a full blown 1983 style collapse
b) You tried your best to remove Japan from the picture through Project Manhattan but failed after the Xbox 360 didn't beat the PS3 and the Xbone got raped by the Xbone
c) You had a backup plan: Reshape games to be hostile to the consumer and to be taken seriously by congress.
d) Have some sleeper "educational game companies" ready to be purchased by bigger game bodies ready
e) Force the collapse to happen, ask for a bail out to save educational games
f) Enjoy infinite profits for very little work, game crash averted.

....think about it guys

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 25 March 2015 21:19 (Yesterday) Permalink

the Xbone got raped by the Xbone

i am detecting a logic issue here, the rest checks out

Maybe in 100 years someone will say damn Dawn was dope. (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 25 March 2015 21:23 (Yesterday) Permalink

This seems like it might be insane

DJP, Wednesday, 25 March 2015 21:25 (Yesterday) Permalink

d) Have some sleeper "educational game companies" ready to be purchased by bigger game bodies ready

i mean at a certain point any corporation is going to look at the possibility running a secret network sleeper cell of educational video game developers, but i don't get the sense that it happens as often as people think

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 25 March 2015 21:28 (Yesterday) Permalink

It's funny how the stories these people tell themselves so much resemble video game stories.

jmm, Wednesday, 25 March 2015 21:30 (Yesterday) Permalink

gamergate commentary goes down easier if you read it in your head in the voice of duke nukem and add "oh yeeaaaaaaaah" to the end of every sentence

Maybe in 100 years someone will say damn Dawn was dope. (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 25 March 2015 21:31 (Yesterday) Permalink

e) Force the collapse to happen, ask for a bail out to save educational games

they think that video games are as much of a linchpin to the american economy as major banks and the auto industry, and would surely be bailed out by a sympathetic congress

mh, Wednesday, 25 March 2015 21:34 (Yesterday) Permalink

Well I mean look at how much of the U.S. economy is tied up in educational games, just think it through

DJP, Wednesday, 25 March 2015 21:40 (Yesterday) Permalink

brb watching twitch stream of Tut's Typer

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 25 March 2015 21:41 (Yesterday) Permalink

meanwhile, in her volcano-based lair, Mavis Beacon is steepling her fingers and chuckling

the biggest aspie disser in the world (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 25 March 2015 21:41 (Yesterday) Permalink

Guys, we've been found out. Set off the Mavis Beacon, we're going underground

xp OH FUCK OFF :(

GGGOAT: greatest goat game of all time (Will M.), Wednesday, 25 March 2015 22:09 (Yesterday) Permalink

lol sorry, guess her cover's blown

the biggest aspie disser in the world (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 25 March 2015 22:10 (Yesterday) Permalink

my fault for writing the goof, walking away, coming back and hitting submit post

GGGOAT: greatest goat game of all time (Will M.), Wednesday, 25 March 2015 22:40 (Yesterday) Permalink

Is it too late for my Icarus Proudbottom joke

polyphonic, Wednesday, 25 March 2015 22:49 (Yesterday) Permalink

nope do it!

Nhex, Wednesday, 25 March 2015 23:04 (Yesterday) Permalink

Trying to form Carmen Miranda joek and failing.

I checked Snoops , and it is for real (Trayce), Wednesday, 25 March 2015 23:56 (Yesterday) Permalink

what was that company that had side-scrolling adventures with the character in the giant floppy red hat and blue jacket? I keep thinking they had "puzzle" or "knowledge" in their name. edutainment.

mh, Thursday, 26 March 2015 01:12 (22 hours ago) Permalink

I dunno, its no worse than anything Moore would do, whats the big deal?

uh wha? Even in The Killing Joke – which he has repeatedly denounced both on its own terms and the impact it had on DC over the following five years, let alone post-Johns/DiDio – blood is only shown in violence, as something shocking, the upsetting result and indicator of a vicious attack. The reader is meant to be upset, not titillated, not enticed to look beyond this image of blood finger-smeared across the lips of a frightened teenager*, not to smirk at the gun pointed at her crotch.

*Note also that Gordon in The Killing Joke was an adult librarian whose presence in the story was as a marker of comfort, familiarity, a symbol of family; she’d left a life of thrills and danger and was settled. The Batgirl on this cover visually looks like a teenager, but is also the recovered Barbara Gordon who, in real time, spent 23 years as a role model for differently abled readers and reclusive nerds. So the image is suggesting tearing down work on physical and mental recovery, and letting past traumas define and regress you.

I won’t buy anything from Avatar, so I don’t know how gruesome anything in Neonomicon is, but given that Moore himself dismissed the text years before anything had been drawn, it’d be hard to pin the results on him instead of Burrows. The other most startling and bloody event in his work is the death of Hawley in LoEG, which obviously shows no violence whatsoever, and achieves its horror through a sustained mood and gradual reveal in dialogue. The blood on the tablecloth there underlines the reveal, and again functions as an indicator of brutal physical trauma.

But in neither of these does Moore attempt to draw attention to the events with the cover at all, let alone a lurid, deliberately exaggerated cover. The Killing Joke’s cover becomes unsettling once you’ve read the story, but is not aiming for horror-titillation in its own right at all.

And part of Moore’s disavowal of the book is him deciding that it’s simply inappropriate to use themes and scenes like that with a children’s character like Batman at all. The Killing Joke was aimed at teenage-to-adult boys, and he decided that it was a bad idea, and was still more restrained on the cover AND the interior story itself. The current Batgirl comic, as I understand it, is one of the few texts in the entire Nu-52 64 80 105 that is aimed at a female audience, and especially teenage girls. It’s about female friendship and strength and self-reliance, at least as far as anything can be at DC now. To publish a cover like this on a book like that, in Moore terms, would be like having Tesla menaced, molested, and implied with the threat of rape on the cover of Tom Strong.

Also, while there have been the typical flood of alternatively-priced variants on at least the Johnston adaptations at Avatar, the only time Moore himself has been responsible for a variant cover on any of his work, to the best of my knowledge, was on Dodgem Logic #2; and there they weren’t retailer-and-consumer exploitative, but evenly distributed and individually orderable. An incentive variant would be something you’d expect him to denounce on principle.

(Not to mention, that not only would Moore not have done this, the artist responsible wouldn’t have – it was DC who made repeated revision requests to add elements of creepiness and fear, including the vaginally-pointed gun. One gets the impression Albuquerque was relieved to have a reason to request the cover’s withdrawal.)

oochie wally (clean version) (sic), Thursday, 26 March 2015 03:35 (20 hours ago) Permalink

Found it:

http://www.newsarama.com/8317-why-they-endure-d-oracle-remembered-by-creators-advocates.html

here's a bit about the Nu52 announcement of Batgirl, even talking to John Ostrander & Denny O'Neil:

While The Killing Joke was critically acclaimed, it was controversial — particularly among female readers — because it victimized a female character in order to forward the story of male heroes. That controversy moved two writers to transform her into the hero known as Oracle.


"My late wife, Kimberly Yale, and I were not crazy about how Barbara was treated in The Killing Joke," comic writer John Ostrander told Newsarama. "Since the Batman office had no further plans for her at the time, we got permission to use Barbara in Suicide Squad, [another DC title at the time]. We felt that the gunshot as seen in Killing Joke would leave her paralyzed. We felt such an act should have repercussions. So... we took some of her other talents, as with computers, and created what was essentially an Internet superhero — Oracle."

Because Barbara had been established as having a PhD in library science, Ostrander made her a genius at accessing computer information. She adopted the secret code-name "Oracle" as she used her intellect to assist heroes throughout the DCU.

Dennis O'Neil, a Batman editor for DC at the time, said Ostrander's respectful treatment of Barbara, allowing her to continue fighting crime despite her disability, made her a beloved character almost immediately among DC fans. "I think it was a real inspiration on John's part to come up with Oracle, and she became one of my favorite characters in the whole Bat-stable. She was unlike anything else," O'Neil said.

O'Neil eventually made it official in the comics that Oracle was Batman's sole source of information. "It was logical for her to be there in Batman's world," O'Neil said. "Batman would need someone like that."

The editor said he believes she has endured because with her change to Oracle, she gave the DC Universe a new type of hero.

"We had hoards of people in spandex beating up criminals," he said. "We didn't have anybody like Oracle, who overcame a disability and was just as valuable and just as effective in a way that didn't involve violence."

Oracle even shows up in the Arkham games(voiced by Kimberly Brooks, who also did Ashley in the Mass Effect series).

On another note, I hope the upcoming movie finally gets more attention to what Ostrander/Yale were able to do with their Suicide Squad run.

The Thin Blue Slime (kingfish), Thursday, 26 March 2015 08:06 (15 hours ago) Permalink

booming post sic

IHeartMedia, the giant broadcaster formerly known as Clear Channel, (stevie), Thursday, 26 March 2015 09:55 (13 hours ago) Permalink

^ yup

JimD, Thursday, 26 March 2015 10:02 (13 hours ago) Permalink

otm.

how's life, Thursday, 26 March 2015 10:46 (13 hours ago) Permalink

, Thursday, 26 March 2015 12:33 (11 hours ago) Permalink

multi xxxxp, thanks silby! that is exactly what I was thinking of

can't wait for super solvers to come back and get a federal bailout

mh, Thursday, 26 March 2015 13:46 (10 hours ago) Permalink

Shouldn't be long now, the amount of money the federal government loves to give to education.

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 26 March 2015 14:12 (9 hours ago) Permalink


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