Why is casual racism/sexism more accepted in video games than other forms of media (these days)?

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed

High hopes for this turning out a smart and civil discussion like the horror films why not thread, deep fears that it will descend into madness fyi

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think it's bc games are competitive experiences and competition brings out the worst in human beings

― Mordy, Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:30 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

idk i obv have some pretty strong concerns abt that wrt online FPS screaming idiots and the like, but i dont think that has as much to do with the games themselves (i mean obv its part of the experience but it isnt internalized content per se)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

some of it is cultural differences/lack of knowledge between Asia and the West.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

do you guys mean disgusting behavior in players or the games?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

i mean ive heard some commentary on this but a lot of the big arguments are a little facile and outsidery to me, like the idea that games are a juvenilized form of entertainment and thus more prone to juvenile thinking

xxpost yeah bnw that is def one of the things that i think factors in

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

the sexism is definitely audience targeting. and it is depressingly dead on.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

i am talking abt the games, not the players, but obv there is going to be some reflection there wrt consumers influencing content etc

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's not just that consumers influence the content, it's also that game creators are gamers themselves and exist in the gaming community. they play on the same multiplayer servers and their customers, they're influenced by the same games...

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

-demographics.
-the fact that computer games, for fairly obvious reasons, attract less sophisticated writers than other forms of media.

zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

was the new deus ex french? or french canadian? because thats def one of the weirdest examples of this - fairly thoughtful intellectual game and then whoa whats up with this homeless lady

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

to be perjorative a bit, nerds' poor socialization extends to society broadly, not just socializing. and they get reeeaaally defensive when called on their shit.

combined with a post-rockstar "it's supposed to be funny!" attitude w/r/t this kind of shit and it's a toxic brew

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

A big hook for many games is "by gamers, for gamers"; this means almost by design that a good chunk of regressive content is going to be present in the games since they are operating in this feedback loop where the social environment these games are created in is normalized to be incredibly shitty in a lot of ways.

For all of the equality for things like, say, making your character be male or female is a cosmetic change that doesn't affect your stats, you have things like all of the female iterations of the WoW races being as close to "busty cutie-pie" as the baseline skin will allow them to be (the undead and dwarf races are particularly comical re: this, but even the frickin' minotaur race has "sexy" female forms with cow heads).

xposts basically covered all of this but I am inflicting the concept of sexy cows on y'all anyway

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

some of it is sort of legacy racism from the earlier forms of media that fed VGs? D&D, action movies, etc

xp oh god WoW haha

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

how do you guys rank sexism/racism by systems? nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

also, game content really not as important as ludic components (the best story can just barely redeem a game with terrible gameplay sometimes, while tons of beloved games have amazing gameplay and no story to speak of, or a really shitty story), so it's less important to designers to get stuff right with the content - which is where the racist/sexist stuff primarily exists

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

I mean... come on

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

actually feel like WoW held back a lot compared to some other games.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

Skyrim has the same sort of issues. Like ... why does my lizard lady have tits.

polyphonic, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

have you ever played a Mario game??? also Punchout lololol.

zappi, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

theyre not?

Lamp, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

mario racist against turtles?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

well sure, WoW isn't like Duke Nukem, but the point is more that the whole "moving comic book" medium that their art direction is based upon is super normalized in how the genders should be represented, to the point where even for races where it doesn't make sense for the males to be burly he-men and the women to be curvy sexpots, they still are

also, there's the female night elf dance (which is based on the famous Alizee clips that were zooming around the Internet in the early 00s):

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

copying this over from the other thread because i thinks it a very interesting and good point to think abt

i wonder if part of it is because games are often a solo experience (though not always of course) whereas movies, at some point in their release cycle at least, are experienced collectively? in other words, because the casual racism is easier for people to swallow by themselves as opposed to in a group?

― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 8:29 PM (25 minutes ago)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

okay lol @ Mario being so mainstreamed that all of the "MAMA MIA" and "IT'SA ME, MARIO!" interjections don't even register as caricature anymore

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

i disagree w/ ZS's assertion esp bc i think the most racist/sexist behavior re video games happens in their most collective experience (multiplayer)

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah I think this is pretty easily chalked up to creators pandering to (and being born of) the overwhelmingly 15-35 male demographics of AAA game buyers. The women and men who like and play AAA games but don't like sexualized representations of women in these games (and also comic books) make their voices heard but the majority of the audience would be bummed if you took away their lizardwoman tits.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

duh DJP you cant be racist against italians anymore, the godfather fixed that forever

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

did Mario ever say those lines or are we forcing racism on the poor guy? are we blaming his video game char for his cartoon version? important issues in my work day

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

"it's a-me, Mario!" the sound of booting up Super Mario 64 iirc.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol gg then

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

fyi listening to that may drive you crazy

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

the Mario Kart one is also insane

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

"So long, gay Bowser!"

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

Alot of this sounds like hes sleeping with someone. *barfs*
PeachyzeldagirlXD 3 weeks ago

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

Do u say "ravioli!" when u fuckin?

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

did they really get roberto benigni to do the voices?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

Everybody knows that Mario's wet dreams involve pasta and Bowser.

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

I worked at a gaming geek/comic book store for a couple years and this kind of stuff is everywhere. the idea that females without massive bobs existed at some point is lost on these people

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha awesome typo

"I like the writer but does the artist have to make every female character's hair so big?"

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

i'ma luigi. nambar wan.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh man my old college roommate used to say "yeah, peach has got it" in a squeaky ass voice all the time. mad nostalgia.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

I never played the Horde side of WoW with any regularity so I didn't realize that the trolls were all Jamaican until way way late in the game when I started a troll character because I was bored. Reading the quest text for most of the starter area was PAINFUL.

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

there's a ton of gender normalization in movies too, yeah?

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

im def not saying that movies are immune but i dont think you can make the argument that movies even approach the overt O_O aspects of video games wrt either of these

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

(I also used to play WoW with the sound off and either Vent or iTunes going, so I missed a good chunk of the voice acting)

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh yeah for sure, and movies as a genre are much more mature. but it seems to me that anytime you throw a lot of money at a project (either a blockbuster movie or a blockbuster game) you're gonna end up w/ some pretty unreasonable gender representations

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

Fondly recalling when I was perplexed by reddit's nerd based misogyny, now it's a movement :<

bnw, Wednesday, 22 October 2014 21:30 (Yesterday) Permalink

Transparent and documented though it was, the obsessive campaign worked. Mercedes-Benz—listed on the site as a former partner, and therefore a target—briefly paused its ads on a network that serves ads to Gawker. I've been told that we've lost thousands of dollars already, and could potentially lose thousands more, if not millions. Consequently, the editorial director of Gawker Media, Joel Johnson, took to the front page of Gawker to clarify that Sam Biddle does not want to bully anyone, and that Gawker Media as a company and institution is not pro-bullying. (Let's note here that the admitted goal of our Gamergate trolls is not to eke an apology out of Sam, or the company, but to literally put us out of business entirely.)

amazing the years of gawker pissing numerous ppl + groups off and it was the gamers that figured out how to hurt it

Mordy, Wednesday, 22 October 2014 21:39 (Yesterday) Permalink

max otm

resulting post (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 22 October 2014 21:56 (Yesterday) Permalink

this whole thing has become like the "most photographed barn in america" of the internet.

ryan, Wednesday, 22 October 2014 21:56 (Yesterday) Permalink

the one two punch of johnson + max sort of has and eats the cake at once though, no?

everybody loves lana del raymond (s.clover), Wednesday, 22 October 2014 21:58 (Yesterday) Permalink

this whole thing has become like the "most photographed barn in america" of the internet.

― ryan, Wednesday, October 22, 2014 5:56 PM (26 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ha otm

lag∞n, Wednesday, 22 October 2014 22:23 (Yesterday) Permalink

max's post is rad but i think this is pretty on point: https://twitter.com/sarahjeong/status/525018087532539905

JoeStork, Wednesday, 22 October 2014 23:22 (Yesterday) Permalink

pretty sure that qualifies as bullying

lag∞n, Wednesday, 22 October 2014 23:23 (Yesterday) Permalink

apologies for apologies

mookieproof, Wednesday, 22 October 2014 23:29 (Yesterday) Permalink

Gamergate vs. Gawker... I'm so torn.

jmm, Wednesday, 22 October 2014 23:46 (Yesterday) Permalink

Just glad someone is finally stepping up and saying bullying is bad.

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 22 October 2014 23:53 (Yesterday) Permalink

just consider for a second tho, what if its not?

lag∞n, Wednesday, 22 October 2014 23:54 (Yesterday) Permalink

Show me the evidence and verify

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 22 October 2014 23:57 (Yesterday) Permalink

just consider for a second tho, what if its not?

― lag∞n, Wednesday, October 22, 2014 7:54 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

horseshoe, Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:01 (13 hours ago) Permalink

my role model tbh

lag∞n, Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:08 (13 hours ago) Permalink

Is there a good up-to-date summary of what gamergate is exactly? I get the sense that it involves a lot of basement dwellers rage-fapping into their mesh shorts while trolling women in a hostile and threatening manner. I'm not really interested in gaming or "gamer culture" so it's off my radar aside from just being a word that crosses my view a lot now.

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:12 (13 hours ago) Permalink

wired et al seem to post a new one of those sorts of summaries every day

Clay, Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:14 (13 hours ago) Permalink

https://twitter.com/colincidence/status/524631128482021377

jmm, Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:16 (13 hours ago) Permalink

At this point it just seems like a forum raid done on a larger and more personally damaging scale

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:17 (13 hours ago) Permalink

i stand with #gamergate against the evils of slap bass tbh

lag∞n, Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:18 (13 hours ago) Permalink

Are forum raids just 90s things

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:19 (13 hours ago) Permalink

good investigation into the nasty lil places gmrgt sprang from http://gawker.com/these-are-the-creepy-4chan-successors-behind-gamergates-1648966614

lag∞n, Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:19 (13 hours ago) Permalink

learning about w1zardchan kinda messed my day up

Clay, Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:22 (13 hours ago) Permalink

ok, I get it now, this is worse than I pictured it

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:22 (13 hours ago) Permalink

ya btw no one read that link unless u want to be very sad abt the world

lag∞n, Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:25 (13 hours ago) Permalink

GG is crowdsourced trolling.

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:26 (13 hours ago) Permalink

every link I am now getting to about this and other related/similar things is making my stomach knot up. I feel like I want to keep my daughter off the internet. I hope the law and tech evolve in a way that makes it more feasible to give real consequences to these wastes of human life.

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:28 (13 hours ago) Permalink

it's like mobilizing a bunch of wannabe elliot rodgers types, ISIS style

LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:28 (13 hours ago) Permalink

learning about w1zardchan kinda messed my day up

otm

woof, Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:29 (13 hours ago) Permalink

every link I am now getting to about this and other related/similar things is making my stomach knot up.

Yep. I haven't been contributing much to this thread because for a lot of the time I've been feeling genuinely quite sick and afraid every time I read something about it. The Clickhole article was the first time I've actually had a proper hearty laugh at the situation in what feels like a long time.

emil.y, Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:35 (13 hours ago) Permalink

Serious Q: how common is this sort of severe internet harassment for women with an internet presence? Is it primarily women in *chan-friendly* fields like gaming or is this just standard now? I mean not just getting hate comments but actually being attacked in more serious ways like the woman who had her games' metacritic score bombed, got personal threats, had her company targeted, etc.? Like hate mail doesn't seem like a new thing but this stuff does.

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:38 (13 hours ago) Permalink

SeanieSkykiller ‏@SeanieSkykiller 4h4 hours ago

@ClickHole Yes that whole last paragraph where you connect #GamerGate with harassment has no sources, why?

LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:39 (13 hours ago) Permalink

Serious Q: how common is this sort of severe internet harassment for women with an internet presence? Is it primarily women in *chan-friendly* fields like gaming or is this just standard now?

In gaming it's very common

BTW, after Felicia Day posted a blog about how she has been afraid to speak out she got doxxed within an hour

u2 removal machine (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:44 (13 hours ago) Permalink

I have plenty of female friends in the music world who have been harassed to the point of death/rape threats. My personal presence online is super bland and fairly restricted but I know that even that isn't necessarily a barrier to harassment.

xposts to Hurting

emil.y, Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:45 (13 hours ago) Permalink

(To clarify, not "harassed to the point of death, also rape threats" but "harassed to the point of death threats and rape threats".)

emil.y, Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:47 (13 hours ago) Permalink

Yeah I have read about specific incidents before but it is suddenly hitting me how pervasive this is.

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Thursday, 23 October 2014 00:51 (12 hours ago) Permalink

It used to be massively common even a long time ago in places like IRC chatrooms. If you went online with an obvious female name, BAM instant skeeveball PMs. And if you rejected/told them to GTFO you'd be called slut/lesbian/i know where u live/etc/start another chatroom bagging you out etc.

Gumbercules? I love that guy! (Trayce), Thursday, 23 October 2014 01:05 (12 hours ago) Permalink

This is basically why I never ever play MMORPGs or other online linked gamnig - i just CBF dealing with this shite.

Gumbercules? I love that guy! (Trayce), Thursday, 23 October 2014 01:05 (12 hours ago) Permalink

study circulated a lil
while ago scientists made a bunch of twitter bots that all tweeted the same stuff, the ones with overtly female profiles got ~100x more harassment

lag∞n, Thursday, 23 October 2014 01:10 (12 hours ago) Permalink

The new phenomenon mostly seems to be the coupling of this kind of harassment with the power to actually do anything beyond say offensive stuff.

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Thursday, 23 October 2014 01:23 (12 hours ago) Permalink

jesus christ, doxxing felicia day like ten seconds after she spoke thoughtfully and honestly about her past trouble with stalkers. there isn't an epithet scathing enough to describe these assholes.

you little affront to god (reddening), Thursday, 23 October 2014 01:53 (11 hours ago) Permalink

@tinybaby 35m35 minutes ago
@AdrianChen @max_read congratulations to Adrian Chen on accepting his new position as head of #GamerGate

lol

Clay, Thursday, 23 October 2014 03:00 (10 hours ago) Permalink

ROBERTO EBOLAÑO ‏@Arturo_Ulises 2h2 hours ago
@tinybaby @AdrianChen @max_read Don't let go of that Triforce, Adrian! #GoldenPower

Adrian Chen ‏@AdrianChen 2h2 hours ago
@tinybaby @max_read thanks. it wasn't easy. I had to bully thousands of nerds.

Gumbercules? I love that guy! (Trayce), Thursday, 23 October 2014 04:05 (9 hours ago) Permalink

lol this dude tried to actually give Gamergate useful advice to make it a more legit advocacy group: http://www.zenofdesign.com/dear-gamergate-please-form-a-consumer-organization-kthxbye/

it was not appreciated:
JEWS says:
October 3, 2014 at 6:38 am

no, fuck off

an organization like GAMR would act as a massive BOTTLENECK for #GamerGate’s effectiveness

this manifesto is bad and you should feel bad
Reply

JEWS says:
October 3, 2014 at 7:10 am

i’m feeling generous enough to rebut you point-by-point

2. a “congress” cannot faithfully represent an amorphous group of people that anyone can enter and leave anonymously
3-5. see 2
6. this is slacktivism
7. #burgersandfries and /gg/
8. see 2
9-10. /v/irgins have done this for years and we’ll continue to do it
11-12. see 2
13. i seriously hope you’re kidding about the mailing list
14. see 7
15. this deprives us of agency as an audience
16. irrelevant to gamergate

0/10, see me after class pete
Reply
Adam says:
October 3, 2014 at 5:52 pm

An excellent response from a guy named JEWS.
Reply

Eatmyshit says:
October 3, 2014 at 8:48 am

You can just eat shit out of my asshole. You suck, your games suck. You’re human garbage. Swallow your own tongue.

JoeStork, Thursday, 23 October 2014 06:35 (7 hours ago) Permalink

funny to see the "you guys should have a platform and officers!"/"no that's the point!" occupy debate repeated as disingenuous farce

difficult listening hour, Thursday, 23 October 2014 06:57 (6 hours ago) Permalink

next time is tragedy iirc, thatll be fun

local eire man (darraghmac), Thursday, 23 October 2014 09:33 (4 hours ago) Permalink

Announcement: GAMERSGATE.COM is NOT Gamergate!

As many of you are aware of, recently there has been a fierce and infected discussion about sexism as well as journalistic ethics in the gaming industry. We’ve received threats and harsh words from around the world and want to make it clear for everyone that Gamersgate.com is not part of this controversy whatsoever.

Next year Gamersgate.com celebrate our 10th anniversary and since start we have been selling games for download. We are one of the original download platforms and we do our best to support gamers so that they can buy and download games to good prices. Anytime, anywhere.

Theodore Bergqvist. CEO – Gamersgate.com

Please help us share this post.

kelly sleater's pro kinney (how's life), Thursday, 23 October 2014 10:39 (3 hours ago) Permalink

Re: the harassment, none of GG seem to have any idea of filtering bias (for all that they're about "This is clearly fallacy #23") - that all harassment of pro-GG is brought breathlessly and unexamined to them, and the anti-GG harassment only turns up when it gets in the news, when it is generally accompanied by a reason why it's fake - there are seriously people on the pro-GG side who believe that Anita Sarkeezian only got a death threat once, and they've seen an imgur saying it was fake, so...

Andrew Farrell, Thursday, 23 October 2014 13:17 (29 minutes ago) Permalink


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.