Why is casual racism/sexism more accepted in video games than other forms of media (these days)?

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High hopes for this turning out a smart and civil discussion like the horror films why not thread, deep fears that it will descend into madness fyi

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think it's bc games are competitive experiences and competition brings out the worst in human beings

― Mordy, Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:30 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

idk i obv have some pretty strong concerns abt that wrt online FPS screaming idiots and the like, but i dont think that has as much to do with the games themselves (i mean obv its part of the experience but it isnt internalized content per se)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

some of it is cultural differences/lack of knowledge between Asia and the West.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

do you guys mean disgusting behavior in players or the games?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

i mean ive heard some commentary on this but a lot of the big arguments are a little facile and outsidery to me, like the idea that games are a juvenilized form of entertainment and thus more prone to juvenile thinking

xxpost yeah bnw that is def one of the things that i think factors in

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

the sexism is definitely audience targeting. and it is depressingly dead on.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

i am talking abt the games, not the players, but obv there is going to be some reflection there wrt consumers influencing content etc

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's not just that consumers influence the content, it's also that game creators are gamers themselves and exist in the gaming community. they play on the same multiplayer servers and their customers, they're influenced by the same games...

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

-demographics.
-the fact that computer games, for fairly obvious reasons, attract less sophisticated writers than other forms of media.

zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

was the new deus ex french? or french canadian? because thats def one of the weirdest examples of this - fairly thoughtful intellectual game and then whoa whats up with this homeless lady

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

to be perjorative a bit, nerds' poor socialization extends to society broadly, not just socializing. and they get reeeaaally defensive when called on their shit.

combined with a post-rockstar "it's supposed to be funny!" attitude w/r/t this kind of shit and it's a toxic brew

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

A big hook for many games is "by gamers, for gamers"; this means almost by design that a good chunk of regressive content is going to be present in the games since they are operating in this feedback loop where the social environment these games are created in is normalized to be incredibly shitty in a lot of ways.

For all of the equality for things like, say, making your character be male or female is a cosmetic change that doesn't affect your stats, you have things like all of the female iterations of the WoW races being as close to "busty cutie-pie" as the baseline skin will allow them to be (the undead and dwarf races are particularly comical re: this, but even the frickin' minotaur race has "sexy" female forms with cow heads).

xposts basically covered all of this but I am inflicting the concept of sexy cows on y'all anyway

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

some of it is sort of legacy racism from the earlier forms of media that fed VGs? D&D, action movies, etc

xp oh god WoW haha

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

how do you guys rank sexism/racism by systems? nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

also, game content really not as important as ludic components (the best story can just barely redeem a game with terrible gameplay sometimes, while tons of beloved games have amazing gameplay and no story to speak of, or a really shitty story), so it's less important to designers to get stuff right with the content - which is where the racist/sexist stuff primarily exists

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

I mean... come on

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

actually feel like WoW held back a lot compared to some other games.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

Skyrim has the same sort of issues. Like ... why does my lizard lady have tits.

polyphonic, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

have you ever played a Mario game??? also Punchout lololol.

zappi, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

theyre not?

Lamp, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

mario racist against turtles?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

well sure, WoW isn't like Duke Nukem, but the point is more that the whole "moving comic book" medium that their art direction is based upon is super normalized in how the genders should be represented, to the point where even for races where it doesn't make sense for the males to be burly he-men and the women to be curvy sexpots, they still are

also, there's the female night elf dance (which is based on the famous Alizee clips that were zooming around the Internet in the early 00s):

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

copying this over from the other thread because i thinks it a very interesting and good point to think abt

i wonder if part of it is because games are often a solo experience (though not always of course) whereas movies, at some point in their release cycle at least, are experienced collectively? in other words, because the casual racism is easier for people to swallow by themselves as opposed to in a group?

― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 8:29 PM (25 minutes ago)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

okay lol @ Mario being so mainstreamed that all of the "MAMA MIA" and "IT'SA ME, MARIO!" interjections don't even register as caricature anymore

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

i disagree w/ ZS's assertion esp bc i think the most racist/sexist behavior re video games happens in their most collective experience (multiplayer)

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah I think this is pretty easily chalked up to creators pandering to (and being born of) the overwhelmingly 15-35 male demographics of AAA game buyers. The women and men who like and play AAA games but don't like sexualized representations of women in these games (and also comic books) make their voices heard but the majority of the audience would be bummed if you took away their lizardwoman tits.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

duh DJP you cant be racist against italians anymore, the godfather fixed that forever

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

did Mario ever say those lines or are we forcing racism on the poor guy? are we blaming his video game char for his cartoon version? important issues in my work day

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

"it's a-me, Mario!" the sound of booting up Super Mario 64 iirc.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol gg then

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

fyi listening to that may drive you crazy

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

the Mario Kart one is also insane

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

"So long, gay Bowser!"

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

Alot of this sounds like hes sleeping with someone. *barfs*
PeachyzeldagirlXD 3 weeks ago

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

Do u say "ravioli!" when u fuckin?

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

did they really get roberto benigni to do the voices?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

Everybody knows that Mario's wet dreams involve pasta and Bowser.

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

I worked at a gaming geek/comic book store for a couple years and this kind of stuff is everywhere. the idea that females without massive bobs existed at some point is lost on these people

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha awesome typo

"I like the writer but does the artist have to make every female character's hair so big?"

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

i'ma luigi. nambar wan.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh man my old college roommate used to say "yeah, peach has got it" in a squeaky ass voice all the time. mad nostalgia.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

I never played the Horde side of WoW with any regularity so I didn't realize that the trolls were all Jamaican until way way late in the game when I started a troll character because I was bored. Reading the quest text for most of the starter area was PAINFUL.

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

there's a ton of gender normalization in movies too, yeah?

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

im def not saying that movies are immune but i dont think you can make the argument that movies even approach the overt O_O aspects of video games wrt either of these

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

(I also used to play WoW with the sound off and either Vent or iTunes going, so I missed a good chunk of the voice acting)

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh yeah for sure, and movies as a genre are much more mature. but it seems to me that anytime you throw a lot of money at a project (either a blockbuster movie or a blockbuster game) you're gonna end up w/ some pretty unreasonable gender representations

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

The defence everyone seems to come up with is "sure, the game hates women and minorities, but it hates everyone else too so that's ok". I'm far from convinced that does make it ok, but it muddies the water enough for them to get away with it.

JimD, Saturday, 28 September 2013 08:05 (6 months ago) Permalink

most people seem to claim "it's satire", and when you explain that it's pretty difficult to do satirical racism and misogyny when there's no sense that the game or any of its developers disapprove of it they get real defensive

Andrew Kornfan, Saturday, 28 September 2013 09:19 (6 months ago) Permalink

Somebody could probably get a good feature out of exploring the way-different vibes that GTA vs Saints Row take with their characters and the difference between the sexy/sexist breakdown happens.

Your Own Personal El Guapo (kingfish), Friday, 4 October 2013 07:05 (6 months ago) Permalink

Oooh, this is a good key word: "hateful". Nothing in SR seems hateful at all. The entire game is a pisstake.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-09-30-women-in-games-rebalancing-the-scales

'"I haven't played GTA V, and I'll be sorry if my enjoyment is spoiled because one writer, or a collection or writers, was allowed to introduce content that I find alienating or hateful"

Your Own Personal El Guapo (kingfish), Saturday, 5 October 2013 20:06 (6 months ago) Permalink

I've never seen that site before but I love that all the comments list the title and studio of each commenter; it means I can look up what work people with cool opinions have done or are doing :~)

Andrew Kornfan, Sunday, 6 October 2013 00:22 (6 months ago) Permalink

http://tevisthompson.com/on-videogame-reviews/

乒乓, Thursday, 17 October 2013 23:36 (6 months ago) Permalink

have we learned nothing from Evony?

Nhex, Monday, 21 October 2013 05:42 (5 months ago) Permalink

must be so hard to keep female gamers out of games like that

socki (s1ocki), Monday, 21 October 2013 14:09 (5 months ago) Permalink

finally we have the pirate sideboob game the public has been crying out for

Bitch Fantastic (DJP), Monday, 21 October 2013 15:46 (5 months ago) Permalink

hoo boy I am having a discussion with a friend of mine of Facebook over that Bioshock/reviewers suck blog article

fortunately dude is mostly reasonable so it's more "I disagree with that post you linked" rather than "obviously the guy who wrote that is the real racist"

Bitch Fantastic (DJP), Monday, 21 October 2013 15:57 (5 months ago) Permalink

is the whole series this dumb? I've never played any of em

(⊙_⊙?) (Alan N), Monday, 21 October 2013 16:09 (5 months ago) Permalink

Apparently yes? I've never played them, either.

Bitch Fantastic (DJP), Monday, 21 October 2013 16:10 (5 months ago) Permalink

is the new one not good? i've been waiting for it to go on discount on steam, and the first one i remember was pretty great (at least up until the twist - i got bored shortly thereafter). it looks pretty

Mordy , Monday, 21 October 2013 16:11 (5 months ago) Permalink

lol:

The game's concept was developed by Irrational's creative lead, Ken Levine, and was based on the ideas of Objectivism as highlighted by Ayn Rand, while incorporating influences from other authors such as George Orwell.

(⊙_⊙?) (Alan N), Monday, 21 October 2013 16:15 (5 months ago) Permalink

the first one was more of a "critique" of objectivism than "based on"

Mordy , Monday, 21 October 2013 16:22 (5 months ago) Permalink

infinite is very good. those challops are pretty stale.

brand nubian wafers (bnw), Monday, 21 October 2013 16:35 (5 months ago) Permalink

first one was great. it did drag on a bit too long and the gameplay was so-so FPS junk, but those are minor complaints in what was an excellent package. I still have to get to the second one

Nhex, Monday, 21 October 2013 16:56 (5 months ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

gyac, Wednesday, 4 December 2013 12:33 (4 months ago) Permalink

i didn't know there was more than one of those girlfriend xbone ads. they're on a roll!

Nhex, Thursday, 5 December 2013 03:34 (4 months ago) Permalink

infinite is very good. those challops are pretty stale.

― brand nubian wafers (bnw), Monday, October 21, 2013 12:35 PM (1 month ago) Bookmark

its one of the worst games ive ever played. i pirated it and i still feel ripped off

Hungry4Ass, Thursday, 5 December 2013 03:47 (4 months ago) Permalink

fucking idiots
http://storify.com/SeeBeeWhitman/depression-quest-harassment-campaign

( X '____' )/ (zappi), Friday, 13 December 2013 14:18 (4 months ago) Permalink

this shit makes me so sad and angry and it just perpetuates over and over and i don't know how it's ever going to stop

ciderpress, Friday, 13 December 2013 14:27 (4 months ago) Permalink

its one of the worst games ive ever played. i pirated it and i still feel ripped off

― Hungry4Ass, Wednesday, December 4, 2013 9:47 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is what you need to do. cue up a video of ken levine discussing the depth of the storyline you are failing to grasp. have that playing a loop on your headset as you go through the game. then report back to me on if you still hate it.

bnw, Friday, 13 December 2013 14:46 (4 months ago) Permalink

xp ugh. good for her for standing up to these idiots, it's a shame she has to deal with this bullshit

Nhex, Friday, 13 December 2013 14:59 (4 months ago) Permalink

i don't think this belongs in this thread but i couldn't think of a better one to post it too. depressing:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/12/13/the-messy-saga-of-replays-paul-trowe-as-al-lowe-quits/

Mordy , Friday, 13 December 2013 15:25 (4 months ago) Permalink

wtf at that link in the comments citing this guy as a child molester 20 years ago

Nhex, Friday, 13 December 2013 15:38 (4 months ago) Permalink

gamers barrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrf

rhyme heals all goons (m bison), Saturday, 14 December 2013 17:28 (4 months ago) Permalink

"megaman has never been a western series. please keep western ideals/movements such as 'female empowerment and representation' very far away from megaman."

i want to say one word to you, just one word:buzzfeed (difficult listening hour), Saturday, 14 December 2013 18:30 (4 months ago) Permalink

i read that and immediately think megaman v john wayne totin copies of the second sex in his satchel

rhyme heals all goons (m bison), Saturday, 14 December 2013 21:20 (4 months ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...

http://imgur.com/a/sfl3r

, Saturday, 4 January 2014 02:26 (3 months ago) Permalink

even the edited versions are still kinda over the top, why bother, honestly?
ugh, don't make me side with creepos

Nhex, Saturday, 4 January 2014 04:50 (3 months ago) Permalink

p.s. new year, new acct d?

Nhex, Saturday, 4 January 2014 06:21 (3 months ago) Permalink

tbf its not like there aren't skimpy costumes for the male characters too

( X '____' )/ (zappi), Saturday, 4 January 2014 11:38 (3 months ago) Permalink

http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/women-arent-welcome-internet-72170/

long read, not video games but same frequency

bnw, Tuesday, 7 January 2014 15:05 (3 months ago) Permalink

very sad

Nhex, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 14:50 (3 months ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

the internet was harassing Dong Nguyen for making a game, which is unacceptable. -- links to tweets where ppl are yelling at him for taking it off the website; probably over-the-top but his one link to how the internet harassed Nguyen disproves his argument.

Mordy , Tuesday, 11 February 2014 01:25 (2 months ago) Permalink

it seems to me like flappy bird has been really embraced. it's super popular and everyone i know loves it.

Mordy , Tuesday, 11 February 2014 01:26 (2 months ago) Permalink

I definitely saw some twitter weirdness about the guy before he announced he was taking it down. But I have no idea if the race thing has anything to do with it.

emil.y, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 01:29 (2 months ago) Permalink

And the abuse directed toward him for taking it down doesn't disprove that there was abuse directed toward him beforehand. That's a pretty odd thing to claim.

emil.y, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 01:30 (2 months ago) Permalink

it's just that he cites that particular link as evidence that ppl disliked the game. he continues in the next paragraph:


This harassment was also completely baseless, because (a) the game is rather well-made, if you like these sorts of insta-death reflex games, (b) Flappy Bird lets you restart quickly, which is usually a huge monetization point -- why would a supposedly-greedy mobile game developer monetize their game so inefficiently?, (c) if you look at the actual pixels, Nguyen clearly did not rip any art, and who cares if he wanted to put green pipes in his game?

if he can't correctly parse a bunch of ppl being upset bc a game they like is being taken away from them, maybe he lacks the skills to do a more complex sociopolitical analysis of the racial context of the game.

Mordy , Tuesday, 11 February 2014 01:34 (2 months ago) Permalink

Hm, okay, I get what you're saying - he didn't provide the right evidence, it kind of scuppers his argument. But personally I've seen stuff that backs up his claim... But yeah, I can't be arsed to look for it myself now, and he should have done the work anyway, not me.

emil.y, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 01:37 (2 months ago) Permalink

Robert Yang Fartmaster • a day ago −
Hey "fartmaster" -- almost every mainstream outlet has made a point of announcing Nguyen as Vietnamese. I don't think that, itself, is bad, because I'd agree that's newsworthy given the state of the mobile market... yet it certainly plays a role... like whether you think he's just expressing his love of Mario (what, so your fandom of Mario is more genuine than his?) vs. he's somehow now a conniving thief who's claiming he invented the idea of pixel art pipes that he drew himself?

like what is even the argument here? that ppl are being racist against the vietnamese designer homaging a japanese video game icon by relying on the old shopworn vietnamese are thieves (?????is this a thing????) stereotype?

Mordy , Tuesday, 11 February 2014 01:38 (2 months ago) Permalink

i noticed more than a few articles that announced his "theft" of assets as a settled, done deal, with tons of angry comments about it, which was just BS

socki (s1ocki), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 15:50 (2 months ago) Permalink

it's a good time to hate on the Asian man

Nhex, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 15:51 (2 months ago) Permalink

i wonder if this is more due to the fact that there's a sort of concept of the non-Japanese-east that is all pirate-y and stuff -- if this game was made by someone from north america, or europe, or even japan, it wouldn't be stealing -- it'd be "reference" or "homage" or something. but since he's from some place where they steal software and there's no "tacit knowledge" of the "relevance" of "video game" """history""" there it must be theft?

I've Seen rRootage (Will M.), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 17:01 (2 months ago) Permalink

idk i have a terrible head cold and that might not make any sense but :( @ ppl picking THAT particular nit, wtf, seriously.

i'd be interested to see if there was some precedent for this in western writing about eastern music, ie. "(person from asia) ripped off this part of this song" in the same breath as "(person from USA) sampled this song"

I've Seen rRootage (Will M.), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 17:04 (2 months ago) Permalink


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