Why is casual racism/sexism more accepted in video games than other forms of media (these days)?

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High hopes for this turning out a smart and civil discussion like the horror films why not thread, deep fears that it will descend into madness fyi

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think it's bc games are competitive experiences and competition brings out the worst in human beings

― Mordy, Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:30 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

idk i obv have some pretty strong concerns abt that wrt online FPS screaming idiots and the like, but i dont think that has as much to do with the games themselves (i mean obv its part of the experience but it isnt internalized content per se)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

some of it is cultural differences/lack of knowledge between Asia and the West.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

do you guys mean disgusting behavior in players or the games?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

i mean ive heard some commentary on this but a lot of the big arguments are a little facile and outsidery to me, like the idea that games are a juvenilized form of entertainment and thus more prone to juvenile thinking

xxpost yeah bnw that is def one of the things that i think factors in

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

the sexism is definitely audience targeting. and it is depressingly dead on.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

i am talking abt the games, not the players, but obv there is going to be some reflection there wrt consumers influencing content etc

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's not just that consumers influence the content, it's also that game creators are gamers themselves and exist in the gaming community. they play on the same multiplayer servers and their customers, they're influenced by the same games...

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

-demographics.
-the fact that computer games, for fairly obvious reasons, attract less sophisticated writers than other forms of media.

zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

was the new deus ex french? or french canadian? because thats def one of the weirdest examples of this - fairly thoughtful intellectual game and then whoa whats up with this homeless lady

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

to be perjorative a bit, nerds' poor socialization extends to society broadly, not just socializing. and they get reeeaaally defensive when called on their shit.

combined with a post-rockstar "it's supposed to be funny!" attitude w/r/t this kind of shit and it's a toxic brew

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

A big hook for many games is "by gamers, for gamers"; this means almost by design that a good chunk of regressive content is going to be present in the games since they are operating in this feedback loop where the social environment these games are created in is normalized to be incredibly shitty in a lot of ways.

For all of the equality for things like, say, making your character be male or female is a cosmetic change that doesn't affect your stats, you have things like all of the female iterations of the WoW races being as close to "busty cutie-pie" as the baseline skin will allow them to be (the undead and dwarf races are particularly comical re: this, but even the frickin' minotaur race has "sexy" female forms with cow heads).

xposts basically covered all of this but I am inflicting the concept of sexy cows on y'all anyway

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

some of it is sort of legacy racism from the earlier forms of media that fed VGs? D&D, action movies, etc

xp oh god WoW haha

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

how do you guys rank sexism/racism by systems? nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

also, game content really not as important as ludic components (the best story can just barely redeem a game with terrible gameplay sometimes, while tons of beloved games have amazing gameplay and no story to speak of, or a really shitty story), so it's less important to designers to get stuff right with the content - which is where the racist/sexist stuff primarily exists

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

I mean... come on

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

actually feel like WoW held back a lot compared to some other games.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

Skyrim has the same sort of issues. Like ... why does my lizard lady have tits.

polyphonic, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

have you ever played a Mario game??? also Punchout lololol.

zappi, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

theyre not?

Lamp, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

mario racist against turtles?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

well sure, WoW isn't like Duke Nukem, but the point is more that the whole "moving comic book" medium that their art direction is based upon is super normalized in how the genders should be represented, to the point where even for races where it doesn't make sense for the males to be burly he-men and the women to be curvy sexpots, they still are

also, there's the female night elf dance (which is based on the famous Alizee clips that were zooming around the Internet in the early 00s):

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

copying this over from the other thread because i thinks it a very interesting and good point to think abt

i wonder if part of it is because games are often a solo experience (though not always of course) whereas movies, at some point in their release cycle at least, are experienced collectively? in other words, because the casual racism is easier for people to swallow by themselves as opposed to in a group?

― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 8:29 PM (25 minutes ago)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

okay lol @ Mario being so mainstreamed that all of the "MAMA MIA" and "IT'SA ME, MARIO!" interjections don't even register as caricature anymore

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

i disagree w/ ZS's assertion esp bc i think the most racist/sexist behavior re video games happens in their most collective experience (multiplayer)

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah I think this is pretty easily chalked up to creators pandering to (and being born of) the overwhelmingly 15-35 male demographics of AAA game buyers. The women and men who like and play AAA games but don't like sexualized representations of women in these games (and also comic books) make their voices heard but the majority of the audience would be bummed if you took away their lizardwoman tits.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

duh DJP you cant be racist against italians anymore, the godfather fixed that forever

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

did Mario ever say those lines or are we forcing racism on the poor guy? are we blaming his video game char for his cartoon version? important issues in my work day

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

"it's a-me, Mario!" the sound of booting up Super Mario 64 iirc.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol gg then

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

fyi listening to that may drive you crazy

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

the Mario Kart one is also insane

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

"So long, gay Bowser!"

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

Alot of this sounds like hes sleeping with someone. *barfs*
PeachyzeldagirlXD 3 weeks ago

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

Do u say "ravioli!" when u fuckin?

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

did they really get roberto benigni to do the voices?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

Everybody knows that Mario's wet dreams involve pasta and Bowser.

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

I worked at a gaming geek/comic book store for a couple years and this kind of stuff is everywhere. the idea that females without massive bobs existed at some point is lost on these people

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha awesome typo

"I like the writer but does the artist have to make every female character's hair so big?"

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

i'ma luigi. nambar wan.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh man my old college roommate used to say "yeah, peach has got it" in a squeaky ass voice all the time. mad nostalgia.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

I never played the Horde side of WoW with any regularity so I didn't realize that the trolls were all Jamaican until way way late in the game when I started a troll character because I was bored. Reading the quest text for most of the starter area was PAINFUL.

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

there's a ton of gender normalization in movies too, yeah?

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

im def not saying that movies are immune but i dont think you can make the argument that movies even approach the overt O_O aspects of video games wrt either of these

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

(I also used to play WoW with the sound off and either Vent or iTunes going, so I missed a good chunk of the voice acting)

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh yeah for sure, and movies as a genre are much more mature. but it seems to me that anytime you throw a lot of money at a project (either a blockbuster movie or a blockbuster game) you're gonna end up w/ some pretty unreasonable gender representations

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

Is there a more general thread for #redpill-type stuff (MRA thread is closed)? Because, guys

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Friday, 31 October 2014 04:21 (Yesterday) Permalink

not the right word, late great?

http://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/the-disturbing-misogynist-history-of-gamergates-g

In all, seven out of ten of r/KotakuInAction’s human moderators either participate in or moderate subreddits devoted to either the physical and emotional degradation and humiliation of women, or in subreddits devoted to mocking and delegitimizing the arguments and appearances of feminists and “social justice warriors.” These online actions, while separate from r/KotakuInAction, are a far cry from a community that paints itself as the respectable face of GamerGate, unsullied by the rampant misogyny of unsavory fellow travelers.

caucasity and the sundance kid (goole), Friday, 31 October 2014 04:29 (Yesterday) Permalink

no, it's a fine word, it's just a funny coinage i'd never heard before

the late great, Friday, 31 October 2014 04:31 (Yesterday) Permalink

kind of came up w/ it on the fly. certainly not the term they'd use.

a mordy classic: http://ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=77&threadid=93164

caucasity and the sundance kid (goole), Friday, 31 October 2014 04:33 (Yesterday) Permalink

oh that's 77. welp.

caucasity and the sundance kid (goole), Friday, 31 October 2014 04:33 (Yesterday) Permalink

ffffoooouuuunnndddd it

https://twitter.com/ki11deer

caucasity and the sundance kid (goole), Friday, 31 October 2014 05:28 (Yesterday) Permalink

I'm whiter than Casper but I'm not that friendly. TransKorean, RacialQueer, 100% Asian, 200% Sexy. Hardcore Gamer since 1988

caucasity and the sundance kid (goole), Friday, 31 October 2014 05:29 (Yesterday) Permalink

bizarro gazzara, Friday, 31 October 2014 09:26 (Yesterday) Permalink

amazing

Barry Gordy (Neil S), Friday, 31 October 2014 09:28 (Yesterday) Permalink

gamergaters vs one-eyed purple-headed monster

hmmm

bizarro gazzara, Friday, 31 October 2014 09:44 (Yesterday) Permalink

note also the 8chan banner, sad there are no WizardChan representatives

Barry Gordy (Neil S), Friday, 31 October 2014 09:49 (Yesterday) Permalink

diverse army though, there is a woman (maybe another one deep in the back), an eagle-american, and even a skeleton of color

Doctor Casino, Friday, 31 October 2014 13:21 (Yesterday) Permalink

Q: should we start a new general thread for making fun of Red Pill/Return of Kings/MRA shit?

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Friday, 31 October 2014 13:50 (Yesterday) Permalink

did the other MRA thread get closed?

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 31 October 2014 13:59 (Yesterday) Permalink

I'll re-open the thread.

how's life, Friday, 31 October 2014 14:00 (Yesterday) Permalink

Maybe there should be a new thread though for real. It seems like there was some confusion/bitterness around whether it could be a serious discussion or was just a thread to make fun of shit.

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Friday, 31 October 2014 14:01 (Yesterday) Permalink

Yeah, I mean, it veered wildly in tone. I don't know. The option's there if you want to use the old one or you could start a new one that isn't inhabited by the ghosts of dead clusterfucks.

how's life, Friday, 31 October 2014 14:03 (Yesterday) Permalink

oh yeah. new one, please

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 31 October 2014 14:12 (Yesterday) Permalink

Ok, suggest a title? Something like Rolling Thread for NON-Serious Discussion of MRA/Red Pill/Return of Kings/Miscellaneous Neckbeardery

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Friday, 31 October 2014 14:29 (Yesterday) Permalink

discussion of MRA fuckery

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 31 October 2014 14:30 (Yesterday) Permalink

no, don't attract attn. these dudes are nuts

i think misc neckbeardery is ok tho. maybe too much fedora tho

caucasity and the sundance kid (goole), Friday, 31 October 2014 14:31 (Yesterday) Permalink

the fedora thread would work if there wasn't so much actual had discussion going on

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Friday, 31 October 2014 14:41 (Yesterday) Permalink

Maybe we could make it a 77 thread if there's concern about randoms showing up

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Friday, 31 October 2014 14:46 (Yesterday) Permalink

as a non-77er I would be sad if my right to laugh at neckbeards was denied

Barry Gordy (Neil S), Friday, 31 October 2014 14:54 (Yesterday) Permalink

too late sorry, u should request access

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Friday, 31 October 2014 14:55 (Yesterday) Permalink

we should make a private I Love Neckbeards board

kissaroo and Tyler, too (DJP), Friday, 31 October 2014 15:06 (Yesterday) Permalink

call it GizzardChan

The Falun Gong Show (Noodle Vague), Friday, 31 October 2014 15:17 (Yesterday) Permalink

as a non-77er I would be sad if my right to laugh at neckbeards was denied

cosign ;_;

bizarro gazzara, Friday, 31 October 2014 15:31 (Yesterday) Permalink

at this juncture i think having threads to dredge up the most toxic misogynistic lunatic shit we can find is nagl

example (crüt), Friday, 31 October 2014 15:33 (Yesterday) Permalink

Yes! I knew Amazing Atheist would come through. https://twitter.com/amazingatheist/status/527975524703141888

jmm, Friday, 31 October 2014 15:35 (Yesterday) Permalink

xp yeah crut i think that's true but on the other hand we have a bunch of threads for collating lolworthy internet stupids

The Falun Gong Show (Noodle Vague), Friday, 31 October 2014 15:37 (Yesterday) Permalink

i can never remember which pill is which : /

mookieproof, Friday, 31 October 2014 15:46 (Yesterday) Permalink

yeah idk seems like we have any number of rolling threads for documenting dudes of this variety

if anything GG demonstrates how interlinked and indistinguishable they are anyway

caucasity and the sundance kid (goole), Friday, 31 October 2014 15:47 (Yesterday) Permalink

oh i didn't get you started one already! carry on

caucasity and the sundance kid (goole), Friday, 31 October 2014 15:50 (Yesterday) Permalink

we should make a private I Love Neckbeards board

― kissaroo and Tyler, too (DJP), Friday, October 31, 2014 11:06 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

call it GizzardChan

― The Falun Gong Show (Noodle Vague), Friday, October 31, 2014 11:17 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol

Doctor Casino, Friday, 31 October 2014 16:07 (Yesterday) Permalink

xp to crut: yeah I can see for similar reasons to the "Is This Racist" thread that we don't want to just have a thread of "Here's a big heaping pile of toxic woman hating" thread. But some of this shit is so unintentionally hilarious. So w/e, I defer to mods if they want to lock the thread I started.

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Friday, 31 October 2014 16:10 (Yesterday) Permalink

(aside from inchoate anti-woman rage of course) the illiteracy and miseducation of GG is the thing that drives me up a fuckin wall most

“If you’re going to demonize the word [gamer], then demonize ‘feminism’ too,” wrote one reader with the display name I’m a Gamer, “because it’s been hijacked by radicalists trying to subjugate men.”

"radicalists"?

caucasity and the sundance kid (goole), Friday, 31 October 2014 20:48 (Yesterday) Permalink

fun fact i have come across several GGers who literally think sarkeesian was unable to name 3 video games on colbert

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Friday, 31 October 2014 20:55 (Yesterday) Permalink

Idiots

Frederik B, Friday, 31 October 2014 21:18 (Yesterday) Permalink

Like, you really have to have never ever watched an interview with anyone to believe that.

Frederik B, Friday, 31 October 2014 21:21 (Yesterday) Permalink

Also the idea that she wants ''all games to be Candy Crush or Angry Birds,'' which requires you misread virtually every word in all of her videos, interviews and writings.

Doctor Casino, Friday, 31 October 2014 21:34 (Yesterday) Permalink

I doubt very much if all but a handful of these fucknuts have ever bothered to do any of those things

bizarro gazzara, Friday, 31 October 2014 21:45 (Yesterday) Permalink

There was even specifically a segment in one of her videos about gender stereotyping in Angry Birds.

Iain Mew (if), Friday, 31 October 2014 23:39 (Yesterday) Permalink

(aside from inchoate anti-woman rage of course) the illiteracy and miseducation of GG is the thing that drives me up a fuckin wall most

“If you’re going to demonize the word [ gamer], then demonize ‘feminism’ too,” wrote one reader with the display name I’m a Gamer, “because it’s been hijacked by radicalists trying to subjugate men.”

"radicalists"?

― caucasity and the sundance kid (goole), Friday, October 31, 2014 4:48 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

A meme that I have seen often in MRA/Redpill/ROK/Gamergate/random other black hold internet comment threads is "I think feminism achieved some good once when it was just fighting for equal rights for women, but now the RADICAL feminists have ruined everything." It's very much parallel imo to people who claim to be for civil rights but you know that was a thing we already sorted out and now these angry blacks keep playing the race card.

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Saturday, 1 November 2014 01:50 (9 hours ago) Permalink

*hole

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Saturday, 1 November 2014 01:51 (9 hours ago) Permalink

i don't think i've read anything by any of these guys where they've used the word feminist w/o throwing radical in front of it, which is SOP form of dismissing the interest of the other

Clay, Saturday, 1 November 2014 01:52 (9 hours ago) Permalink

yeah I mean it's just a rhetorically defensive move "Don't get me wrong, I'm talking about the RADICAL feminists," but then everything remotely feminist gets termed "radical."

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Saturday, 1 November 2014 02:16 (8 hours ago) Permalink

Yeah, especially given that ''this media artifact has worrisome gendered tropes'' has to be one of THE mildest feminist tendencies possible, it's like, just, gender studies 101 or high school advanced literature class stuff. If these clowns actually encountered a radical feminist I think their faces would melt off like Eaiders of the Lost Ark.

Doctor Casino, Saturday, 1 November 2014 04:27 (6 hours ago) Permalink

"Now I know what I am, I was worried because I thought I should be a feminist, but now I know I'm something better - an equalist"

Andrew Farrell, Saturday, 1 November 2014 08:58 (2 hours ago) Permalink


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