Why is casual racism/sexism more accepted in video games than other forms of media (these days)?

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High hopes for this turning out a smart and civil discussion like the horror films why not thread, deep fears that it will descend into madness fyi

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

i think it's bc games are competitive experiences and competition brings out the worst in human beings

― Mordy, Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:30 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

idk i obv have some pretty strong concerns abt that wrt online FPS screaming idiots and the like, but i dont think that has as much to do with the games themselves (i mean obv its part of the experience but it isnt internalized content per se)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

some of it is cultural differences/lack of knowledge between Asia and the West.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

do you guys mean disgusting behavior in players or the games?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

i mean ive heard some commentary on this but a lot of the big arguments are a little facile and outsidery to me, like the idea that games are a juvenilized form of entertainment and thus more prone to juvenile thinking

xxpost yeah bnw that is def one of the things that i think factors in

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

the sexism is definitely audience targeting. and it is depressingly dead on.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

i am talking abt the games, not the players, but obv there is going to be some reflection there wrt consumers influencing content etc

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's not just that consumers influence the content, it's also that game creators are gamers themselves and exist in the gaming community. they play on the same multiplayer servers and their customers, they're influenced by the same games...

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

-demographics.
-the fact that computer games, for fairly obvious reasons, attract less sophisticated writers than other forms of media.

zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

was the new deus ex french? or french canadian? because thats def one of the weirdest examples of this - fairly thoughtful intellectual game and then whoa whats up with this homeless lady

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

to be perjorative a bit, nerds' poor socialization extends to society broadly, not just socializing. and they get reeeaaally defensive when called on their shit.

combined with a post-rockstar "it's supposed to be funny!" attitude w/r/t this kind of shit and it's a toxic brew

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

A big hook for many games is "by gamers, for gamers"; this means almost by design that a good chunk of regressive content is going to be present in the games since they are operating in this feedback loop where the social environment these games are created in is normalized to be incredibly shitty in a lot of ways.

For all of the equality for things like, say, making your character be male or female is a cosmetic change that doesn't affect your stats, you have things like all of the female iterations of the WoW races being as close to "busty cutie-pie" as the baseline skin will allow them to be (the undead and dwarf races are particularly comical re: this, but even the frickin' minotaur race has "sexy" female forms with cow heads).

xposts basically covered all of this but I am inflicting the concept of sexy cows on y'all anyway

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

some of it is sort of legacy racism from the earlier forms of media that fed VGs? D&D, action movies, etc

xp oh god WoW haha

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

how do you guys rank sexism/racism by systems? nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

also, game content really not as important as ludic components (the best story can just barely redeem a game with terrible gameplay sometimes, while tons of beloved games have amazing gameplay and no story to speak of, or a really shitty story), so it's less important to designers to get stuff right with the content - which is where the racist/sexist stuff primarily exists

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

I mean... come on

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

actually feel like WoW held back a lot compared to some other games.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

Skyrim has the same sort of issues. Like ... why does my lizard lady have tits.

polyphonic, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

have you ever played a Mario game??? also Punchout lololol.

zappi, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

theyre not?

Lamp, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

mario racist against turtles?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

well sure, WoW isn't like Duke Nukem, but the point is more that the whole "moving comic book" medium that their art direction is based upon is super normalized in how the genders should be represented, to the point where even for races where it doesn't make sense for the males to be burly he-men and the women to be curvy sexpots, they still are

also, there's the female night elf dance (which is based on the famous Alizee clips that were zooming around the Internet in the early 00s):

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

copying this over from the other thread because i thinks it a very interesting and good point to think abt

i wonder if part of it is because games are often a solo experience (though not always of course) whereas movies, at some point in their release cycle at least, are experienced collectively? in other words, because the casual racism is easier for people to swallow by themselves as opposed to in a group?

― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 8:29 PM (25 minutes ago)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

okay lol @ Mario being so mainstreamed that all of the "MAMA MIA" and "IT'SA ME, MARIO!" interjections don't even register as caricature anymore

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

i disagree w/ ZS's assertion esp bc i think the most racist/sexist behavior re video games happens in their most collective experience (multiplayer)

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yeah I think this is pretty easily chalked up to creators pandering to (and being born of) the overwhelmingly 15-35 male demographics of AAA game buyers. The women and men who like and play AAA games but don't like sexualized representations of women in these games (and also comic books) make their voices heard but the majority of the audience would be bummed if you took away their lizardwoman tits.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

duh DJP you cant be racist against italians anymore, the godfather fixed that forever

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

did Mario ever say those lines or are we forcing racism on the poor guy? are we blaming his video game char for his cartoon version? important issues in my work day

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

"it's a-me, Mario!" the sound of booting up Super Mario 64 iirc.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

lol gg then

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

fyi listening to that may drive you crazy

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

the Mario Kart one is also insane

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

"So long, gay Bowser!"

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

Alot of this sounds like hes sleeping with someone. *barfs*
PeachyzeldagirlXD 3 weeks ago

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

Do u say "ravioli!" when u fuckin?

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

did they really get roberto benigni to do the voices?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

Everybody knows that Mario's wet dreams involve pasta and Bowser.

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

I worked at a gaming geek/comic book store for a couple years and this kind of stuff is everywhere. the idea that females without massive bobs existed at some point is lost on these people

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha awesome typo

"I like the writer but does the artist have to make every female character's hair so big?"

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

i'ma luigi. nambar wan.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

oh man my old college roommate used to say "yeah, peach has got it" in a squeaky ass voice all the time. mad nostalgia.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

I never played the Horde side of WoW with any regularity so I didn't realize that the trolls were all Jamaican until way way late in the game when I started a troll character because I was bored. Reading the quest text for most of the starter area was PAINFUL.

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

there's a ton of gender normalization in movies too, yeah?

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

im def not saying that movies are immune but i dont think you can make the argument that movies even approach the overt O_O aspects of video games wrt either of these

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

(I also used to play WoW with the sound off and either Vent or iTunes going, so I missed a good chunk of the voice acting)

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

oh yeah for sure, and movies as a genre are much more mature. but it seems to me that anytime you throw a lot of money at a project (either a blockbuster movie or a blockbuster game) you're gonna end up w/ some pretty unreasonable gender representations

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

I wonder if there's a psychology thesis in studying the abnormal behaviors prevalent amongst people who like games where you shoot other people in the face vs people who like games starring magical panty-flashing teenage girls

resulting post (rogermexico.), Friday, 10 April 2015 04:02 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

lol borderlands

mh, Friday, 10 April 2015 04:06 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

everybody knows how that one ends, right?

Maybe in 100 years someone will say damn Dawn was dope. (forksclovetofu), Friday, 10 April 2015 04:12 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Borderlands has a way of simultaneously mocking & pandering to its audience that's very South Park

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 10 April 2015 13:24 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Ha OTM

DJP, Friday, 10 April 2015 13:26 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I don't think I listened to that guy's full set of dialogue

I do know he does not like it if you shoot him somewhere other than the face

mh, Friday, 10 April 2015 14:20 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Eh, Gawker have of course plenty of reason to hate Gamergate, but it's kind of ass-backward to claim that it's the driver here - it caught on partly because it fit into a narrative of "They're coming for our.." that had already been happening in other arenas, including sci-fi (Sad Puppies was doing this last year as well) and comics.

Andrew Farrell, Friday, 10 April 2015 20:46 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

just posting it because i didn't know about any of the sf dramaz at all

creaks, whines and trife (s.clover), Friday, 10 April 2015 21:36 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Andrew did you read the article?

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 11 April 2015 02:35 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Yeah - it looks like someone wrote a pretty good article about it, and someone said "now make it 25% more about GamerGate", and slapped the headline on it.

Andrew Farrell, Saturday, 11 April 2015 08:25 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Well gg was supporting it and teaming up
It's the same cultural movement in 2 areas that have always shared strong ties
Also headlines are meant to get people to read articles, I don't really think it's misleading since gg started championing sad puppies

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 11 April 2015 12:21 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

insert ethics in journalism joke

droit au butt (Euler), Saturday, 11 April 2015 12:27 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I'd settle for journalism in journalism.

Andrew Farrell, Saturday, 11 April 2015 21:02 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Cap'n Save-a-Gate

Noodle Vague, Sunday, 12 April 2015 02:37 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Save-a-Gate, Ride-a-Fanboy

Doctor Casino, Sunday, 12 April 2015 02:42 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Fuck you, nv - friends of mine are affected by this shit, friends of theirs are some of the principals. Lazy journalism remains lazy journalism.

Andrew Farrell, Sunday, 12 April 2015 09:24 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

it was zung more in laziness than anger but sometimes you seem to be looking for "balance" where i don't see much

Noodle Vague, Sunday, 12 April 2015 09:29 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

sure GG weren't the original angry white nerds but that hashtag has become a focal point/energizer for most of this "dissent" and the Gawker piece sets out the connections/timeline fairly imo

Noodle Vague, Sunday, 12 April 2015 09:31 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Where, exactly, am I looking for "balance" again? I'm just pointing out what the article itself points out (and then ignores) - that this is a pre-existing campaign that was already doing this quite successfully before Gamergate - describing it as 'falling to Gamergate' is just lazy.

Andrew Farrell, Sunday, 12 April 2015 09:59 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Is your point that these guys would have been successful at hijacking the Hugos even if GamerGate hadn't happened? Because I don't believe that; I think all of these existing groups are using GamerGate as a rallying point and hitching their wagons to it and that this was an arena where the pool was small enough for it to have an impact.

DJP, Sunday, 12 April 2015 11:39 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I don't know about that, they got a lot of names on the ballot last year, and the awards were still visibly diverse, I think they were always going to come back strong, and indeed call in help.

As soon as Gamergate started, there was a lot of "Oh shit yeah, this has been happening in science fiction / comics / atheism as well, the SJW have been infiltrating". And I'm sure that when Milo Manara's Spiderwoman cover blew up, which I think was the last thing before that, there was a lot of "Oh shit yeah, this has been happening in science fiction / gaming / atheism as well".

I am not of course saying that no-one who identifies with Gamergate has been pitching in to this. It's just that Gawker's "and the name of the beast is Gamergate" is silly and self-serving.

Andrew Farrell, Sunday, 12 April 2015 13:10 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I could be wrong, but I feel like the spillover of online tactics into real life is something GG sort of took to a new level. Like now if you want to derail or ruin something (or, worse, someone's life) there are not only established procedures but also a standing pool of people ready to help at the drop of a hashtag. Maybe something like this would have happened, but not as... thoroughly?

Doctor Casino, Sunday, 12 April 2015 13:20 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

yeah this is what i'm saying, of course it's not the only game in town but it has a level of mass that will bring other hateful internet fucks into its orbit at some point

Noodle Vague, Sunday, 12 April 2015 14:14 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Anecdotally it's seems to be the crest of a wave - Anita Sarkeesian has been getting this shit for years. But yeah definitely the weaponisation of it, the way that targets are painted on people and their life turns into a nightmare, is as you say something GG took to a new level.

Though, er, if that is the mark of the beast it seems (from what I've seen) to be absent in this case?

Andrew Farrell, Sunday, 12 April 2015 15:29 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Well, I mean more in terms of being able to go post a couple of tweets or forum things like "hey guys SJW are over here too!" and suddenly get an army (legion? platoon? not sure of the numbers involved in the sci-fi case) ready to pay $40 to vote a slate of books they haven't read. I mean this obviously crosses over with much older geek impulses - geeks love boycotts and pro-cotts, feels like you're Doing Something for Free Speech without doing anything really.

Doctor Casino, Sunday, 12 April 2015 16:09 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Oh lord yeah, that's been going on for decades.

Andrew Farrell, Sunday, 12 April 2015 19:01 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I searched Google Groups for old Chrono Trigger threads and there is stuff from the 90s. Didn't find any mentions of SJW. Wonder what the source for that term is, feels like the new version of "PC police".

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Sunday, 12 April 2015 22:42 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Are you being purposefully obtuse or did you not get that what was implied would be find was a regressive attitude toward gender and race relations, not a direct addressing of politics?

mh, Sunday, 12 April 2015 23:01 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I'm not really sure how to address your question, maybe you should try framing it in a way that doesn't sound like an insult.

Anyways the first post I found in my search was a history of alt.games.final-fantasy, which was written by a woman, and doesn't include anything indicative of a regressive atmosphere. I looked at a lot of threads: some were people asking to buy the game, some were people complaining about it being overrated (in 1998!), some people had humorous lists of "10 Signs You Play Too Much Chrono Trigger", I looked around for a good couple of hours, and didn't really find much at all, even off-handed comments. Then again there were far less people on the internet back then, and the barrier to entry was far greater, so it was probably worth your time to use it for constructive purposes or genuine conversations.

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Sunday, 12 April 2015 23:30 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Then again there were far less people on the internet back then, and the barrier to entry was far greater, so it was probably worth your time to use it for constructive purposes or genuine conversations.

― ©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Sunday, April 12, 2015 7:30 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ahahahaha
haha
aha
ha

creaks, whines and trife (s.clover), Monday, 13 April 2015 01:02 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I can assure you many of us were having completely useless conversations on the internet, even usenet, in 1998.

I assumed you were trying to subtly jibe by acting like you'd find "sjw" on usenet in the 90s

mh, Monday, 13 April 2015 01:48 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I was kind of harsh, sorry, man. I feel like I'm reading past your posts sometimes because I know there's some sort of humor I don't get or something I'm missing I should probably wait to respond to until I pick up on.

mh, Monday, 13 April 2015 03:34 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Hah np.

I was on BBSes back in the day, but I don't have any recollection at all of the culture of it. Once the internet dropped w AOL et al I stayed away from chatrooms and only did AIM and IRC with friends and people I knew.

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 13 April 2015 04:53 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

are you all following @MomsAgainstGam ? some of the funniest shit ever

https://twitter.com/StevenJCBuckley/status/590512241520160768

https://twitter.com/GamersForGaming/status/589627287349305345

goole, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:08 (5 days ago) Permalink

tho the funniest convo i've come across from this universe lately has been this:

https://twitter.com/Chriss_m/status/590556383843586049

goole, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:09 (5 days ago) Permalink

It's truly the best test of finding the completely tone-deaf gamers

mh, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:09 (5 days ago) Permalink

Have these gamers heard of app.net or w/e? Is that still a running concern, the for-pay twitter alternative that is all software developers and pretentious web developers who wanted their own network? Maybe they can all migrate to that.

mh, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:11 (5 days ago) Permalink

oh christ louise mensch weighing in on the comments on @chriss_m's hot take

bizarro gazzara, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:11 (5 days ago) Permalink

i know!

goole, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:12 (5 days ago) Permalink

Jules ‏@AnaLoGMunKy 19h19 hours ago

@Chriss_m Cant see myself being on twitter much longer. Without dissent, debate is impossible.

without death threats and doxxing, debate is impossible

bizarro gazzara, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:13 (5 days ago) Permalink

Corey Vaughn ‏@Rekonocide 18h18 hours ago

@Chriss_m If this worked perfectly then maybe it would be fine, but we don't have AI with the ability to decide if something is hate it not.

guys can we teach computers to love?

bizarro gazzara, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:13 (5 days ago) Permalink

Doing a PhD on US politics, journalism, YouTube and emotions. Media critic. I also teach and write a bit.

mh, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:15 (5 days ago) Permalink

makes your blood run cold doesn't it

goole, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:18 (5 days ago) Permalink

I heard a segment on the BBC World Service yesterday that was an American reporter doing this naive interview thing in an economically-depressed UK town. I think coming to the politics of another nation from a state of ignorance is a cool take B)

I mean, at least as far as entertainment goes, until it becomes some Canadians telling you how Ron Paul seems pretty reasonable. That was a really bad conversation I took part in.

mh, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:22 (5 days ago) Permalink

Fedora ze WEEDsmoker

NotKnowPotato (stevie), Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:38 (5 days ago) Permalink

Have these gamers heard of app.net or w/e? Is that still a running concern, the for-pay twitter alternative that is all software developers and pretentious web developers who wanted their own network? Maybe they can all migrate to that.

― mh, Wednesday, April 22, 2015 7:11 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Revenue couldn't sustain their paid developers, still working I suppose but last blog post was a year ago when they basically announced their plan failed.

brunch technician (silby), Wednesday, 22 April 2015 18:09 (5 days ago) Permalink

I'd never have guessed

mh, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 18:14 (5 days ago) Permalink

lol at "mom will take your games"

Premise ridiculous. Who have two potato? (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 22 April 2015 19:22 (5 days ago) Permalink


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