Why is casual racism/sexism more accepted in video games than other forms of media (these days)?

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High hopes for this turning out a smart and civil discussion like the horror films why not thread, deep fears that it will descend into madness fyi

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think it's bc games are competitive experiences and competition brings out the worst in human beings

― Mordy, Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:30 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

idk i obv have some pretty strong concerns abt that wrt online FPS screaming idiots and the like, but i dont think that has as much to do with the games themselves (i mean obv its part of the experience but it isnt internalized content per se)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

some of it is cultural differences/lack of knowledge between Asia and the West.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

do you guys mean disgusting behavior in players or the games?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

i mean ive heard some commentary on this but a lot of the big arguments are a little facile and outsidery to me, like the idea that games are a juvenilized form of entertainment and thus more prone to juvenile thinking

xxpost yeah bnw that is def one of the things that i think factors in

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

the sexism is definitely audience targeting. and it is depressingly dead on.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

i am talking abt the games, not the players, but obv there is going to be some reflection there wrt consumers influencing content etc

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's not just that consumers influence the content, it's also that game creators are gamers themselves and exist in the gaming community. they play on the same multiplayer servers and their customers, they're influenced by the same games...

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

-demographics.
-the fact that computer games, for fairly obvious reasons, attract less sophisticated writers than other forms of media.

zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

was the new deus ex french? or french canadian? because thats def one of the weirdest examples of this - fairly thoughtful intellectual game and then whoa whats up with this homeless lady

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

to be perjorative a bit, nerds' poor socialization extends to society broadly, not just socializing. and they get reeeaaally defensive when called on their shit.

combined with a post-rockstar "it's supposed to be funny!" attitude w/r/t this kind of shit and it's a toxic brew

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

A big hook for many games is "by gamers, for gamers"; this means almost by design that a good chunk of regressive content is going to be present in the games since they are operating in this feedback loop where the social environment these games are created in is normalized to be incredibly shitty in a lot of ways.

For all of the equality for things like, say, making your character be male or female is a cosmetic change that doesn't affect your stats, you have things like all of the female iterations of the WoW races being as close to "busty cutie-pie" as the baseline skin will allow them to be (the undead and dwarf races are particularly comical re: this, but even the frickin' minotaur race has "sexy" female forms with cow heads).

xposts basically covered all of this but I am inflicting the concept of sexy cows on y'all anyway

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

some of it is sort of legacy racism from the earlier forms of media that fed VGs? D&D, action movies, etc

xp oh god WoW haha

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

how do you guys rank sexism/racism by systems? nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

also, game content really not as important as ludic components (the best story can just barely redeem a game with terrible gameplay sometimes, while tons of beloved games have amazing gameplay and no story to speak of, or a really shitty story), so it's less important to designers to get stuff right with the content - which is where the racist/sexist stuff primarily exists

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

I mean... come on

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

actually feel like WoW held back a lot compared to some other games.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

Skyrim has the same sort of issues. Like ... why does my lizard lady have tits.

polyphonic, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

have you ever played a Mario game??? also Punchout lololol.

zappi, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

theyre not?

Lamp, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

mario racist against turtles?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

well sure, WoW isn't like Duke Nukem, but the point is more that the whole "moving comic book" medium that their art direction is based upon is super normalized in how the genders should be represented, to the point where even for races where it doesn't make sense for the males to be burly he-men and the women to be curvy sexpots, they still are

also, there's the female night elf dance (which is based on the famous Alizee clips that were zooming around the Internet in the early 00s):

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

copying this over from the other thread because i thinks it a very interesting and good point to think abt

i wonder if part of it is because games are often a solo experience (though not always of course) whereas movies, at some point in their release cycle at least, are experienced collectively? in other words, because the casual racism is easier for people to swallow by themselves as opposed to in a group?

― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 8:29 PM (25 minutes ago)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

okay lol @ Mario being so mainstreamed that all of the "MAMA MIA" and "IT'SA ME, MARIO!" interjections don't even register as caricature anymore

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

i disagree w/ ZS's assertion esp bc i think the most racist/sexist behavior re video games happens in their most collective experience (multiplayer)

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah I think this is pretty easily chalked up to creators pandering to (and being born of) the overwhelmingly 15-35 male demographics of AAA game buyers. The women and men who like and play AAA games but don't like sexualized representations of women in these games (and also comic books) make their voices heard but the majority of the audience would be bummed if you took away their lizardwoman tits.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

duh DJP you cant be racist against italians anymore, the godfather fixed that forever

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

did Mario ever say those lines or are we forcing racism on the poor guy? are we blaming his video game char for his cartoon version? important issues in my work day

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

"it's a-me, Mario!" the sound of booting up Super Mario 64 iirc.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol gg then

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

fyi listening to that may drive you crazy

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

the Mario Kart one is also insane

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

"So long, gay Bowser!"

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

Alot of this sounds like hes sleeping with someone. *barfs*
PeachyzeldagirlXD 3 weeks ago

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

Do u say "ravioli!" when u fuckin?

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

did they really get roberto benigni to do the voices?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

Everybody knows that Mario's wet dreams involve pasta and Bowser.

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

I worked at a gaming geek/comic book store for a couple years and this kind of stuff is everywhere. the idea that females without massive bobs existed at some point is lost on these people

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha awesome typo

"I like the writer but does the artist have to make every female character's hair so big?"

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

i'ma luigi. nambar wan.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh man my old college roommate used to say "yeah, peach has got it" in a squeaky ass voice all the time. mad nostalgia.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

I never played the Horde side of WoW with any regularity so I didn't realize that the trolls were all Jamaican until way way late in the game when I started a troll character because I was bored. Reading the quest text for most of the starter area was PAINFUL.

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

there's a ton of gender normalization in movies too, yeah?

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

im def not saying that movies are immune but i dont think you can make the argument that movies even approach the overt O_O aspects of video games wrt either of these

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

(I also used to play WoW with the sound off and either Vent or iTunes going, so I missed a good chunk of the voice acting)

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh yeah for sure, and movies as a genre are much more mature. but it seems to me that anytime you throw a lot of money at a project (either a blockbuster movie or a blockbuster game) you're gonna end up w/ some pretty unreasonable gender representations

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

GGers should rebrand themselves as Tri-Lambs

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Friday, 24 October 2014 17:53 (Yesterday) Permalink

GGes should rebrand themselves as (be)Gone Girls

you walk on the street, grab the rock (President Keyes), Friday, 24 October 2014 17:57 (Yesterday) Permalink

lag∞n, Friday, 24 October 2014 17:57 (Yesterday) Permalink

these guys are never not not getting it

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Friday, 24 October 2014 18:47 (Yesterday) Permalink

lmao for real at "arrest all geeks"

LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Friday, 24 October 2014 18:50 (Yesterday) Permalink

it's almost as though people with massive victim complexes are the real victims

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Friday, 24 October 2014 18:53 (Yesterday) Permalink

this is going around

https://twitter.com/alicemazzy/status/525697776194437120

goole, Friday, 24 October 2014 19:02 (Yesterday) Permalink

bizarro gazzara, Friday, 24 October 2014 19:03 (Yesterday) Permalink

lol those are so good

goole, Friday, 24 October 2014 19:04 (Yesterday) Permalink

OH FOR CHRIST'S SAKE ANDREW SULLIVAN JUST POSTED ON THIS

goole, Friday, 24 October 2014 19:05 (Yesterday) Permalink

YES THERE IS A SOUTH PARK SCREENSHOT

goole, Friday, 24 October 2014 19:05 (Yesterday) Permalink

"I LIKE CARL MARX. HE WAS A FUCKING RAD DUDE."

Steve 'n' Seagulls and Flock of Van Dammes (forksclovetofu), Friday, 24 October 2014 19:05 (Yesterday) Permalink

https://twitter.com/zpxlng/status/525643616304107521

goole, Friday, 24 October 2014 19:07 (Yesterday) Permalink

lol - that's pretty great.

AKA Thermo Thinwall (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 24 October 2014 19:08 (Yesterday) Permalink

'now I can go back to being a gentleman on the internet' *adjusts fedora*

bizarro gazzara, Friday, 24 October 2014 19:08 (Yesterday) Permalink

The gaming ethics have been kidnapped by SJW's. Are you a rad enough dude to rescue the ethics?

Doctor Casino, Friday, 24 October 2014 19:09 (Yesterday) Permalink

lol

bizarro gazzara, Friday, 24 October 2014 19:10 (Yesterday) Permalink

So Andrew Sullivan says some things:

There’s an atmosphere in which it has somehow become problematic to have a classic white, straight male identity, and a lot that goes with it. I’m not really a part of that general culture – indifferent to boobage, as I am, and bored by violence. But I don’t see why it cannot have a place in the world. I believe in the flourishing of all sorts of cultures and subcultures and have long been repulsed by the nannies and busybodies who want to police them – whether from the social right or the feminist left.

But – and here’s where the logic escapes me – if the core gamers really do dominate the market for these games, why do they think the market will stop catering to them? The great (and not-so-great) thing about markets is that they are indifferent to content as such. If “hardcore gamers” skew 7 -1 male, and if corporations want to make lots of money, then this strain of the culture is hardly under threat. It may be supplemented by lots of other, newer varieties, but it won’t die. Will it be diluted? Almost certainly. Does that feel like an assault for a group of people whose identity is deeply bound up in this culture? Absolutely. Is it something anyone should really do anything about? Nah. Let a thousand variety of nerds and post-nerds bloom. And leave Kenny McCormick alone. This doesn’t have to be zero-sum.

The analogy a reader made this morning between the end of gamer culture and the end of gay culture was really helpful to me. I’ve written and blogged a lot about the end of gay culture; and I’ve always tried to present both sides of the argument. Yes, I wouldn’t trade our freedom for the closeted, marginalized past; at the same time, it’s impossible not to feel some regret at the close-knit, marginalized, very distinctive solidarity gays have lost as a group, and some affection for a world, built defiantly to defend itself against outsiders, that is dissipating before our eyes and on our apps. I’m for integration and against identity politics. But do I miss what, say, leather bars once were – and feel very conflicted now that bachelorette parties come and go as they please in some of them? Do I harbor some traces of resentment at those who treat gay culture as some kind of straight playground, or at the mob of straight folks who will swamp any gay presence at next week’s once-very gay high heel race in Dupont Circle? Guilty as charged.

And look, many gamers were the bullied in high school; this was their safe space; it was a place they could call home. They now feel it slipping away, and it has unhinged some and disconcerted many, as a lot of mainstream culture has heaped scorn and ridicule on them at the same time. And I’m sorry, but I feel some sympathy here. That sympathy has, alas, been swamped by revulsion at the rhetoric and tactics that have come to define this amorphous movement....

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 24 October 2014 19:12 (Yesterday) Permalink

somebody set him up the bomb

Steve 'n' Seagulls and Flock of Van Dammes (forksclovetofu), Friday, 24 October 2014 19:12 (Yesterday) Permalink

"I LIKE RICHARD MARX. HE WAS A FUCKING RAD DUDE."

kissaroo and Tyler, too (DJP), Friday, 24 October 2014 19:14 (Yesterday) Permalink

cultural richard marxism is something i could get behind

Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 24 October 2014 19:16 (Yesterday) Permalink

Gawker's coverage, he goes on to say:

...pure vitriol, resting on an unspoken, hard left view of culture that is more disturbing because it presents itself as snark and analysis, rather than tired, easy agit-prop. It’s a classic piece that asks all the cool kids today to smear and dismiss all the bullied of yesterday – and give them one last shove into the locker. Gawker’s Joel Johnson actually cites the piece thus:

Gawker Media has been covering the often-confounding phenomenon of Gamergate in detail, and will keep on covering it.

That piece was not so much “covering the phenomenon” as viciously skewing it. And yes, its tone smacked of bullying and dismissal. When you’re telling people they don’t even deserve to be in a debate, and associate them with segregationists and every other entity good liberals have been taught to despise, “dismissive” is the least of it.

Look: whatever case the gamergate peeps have, they have botched it with their tactics. Those tactics have been repellent in every sense of the word. But bullying has occurred on both sides, and only one side was bullied before.

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 24 October 2014 19:16 (Yesterday) Permalink

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Friday, 24 October 2014 19:22 (Yesterday) Permalink

re: https://twitter.com/alicemazzy/status/525697776194437120

isn't this person just a sock?

example (crüt), Friday, 24 October 2014 19:27 (Yesterday) Permalink

would post the "actually" thread but it's 77

Steve 'n' Seagulls and Flock of Van Dammes (forksclovetofu), Friday, 24 October 2014 19:30 (Yesterday) Permalink

Your grandma plays video games.

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Friday, 24 October 2014 19:30 (Yesterday) Permalink

? which person, the chan poster or that twitter acct?

xps

goole, Friday, 24 October 2014 19:31 (Yesterday) Permalink

last dozen posts itt <3 <3

≖_≖ (Lamp), Friday, 24 October 2014 19:31 (Yesterday) Permalink

i mean the chan poster "The Leader of Gamergate"

example (crüt), Friday, 24 October 2014 19:33 (Yesterday) Permalink

i think that site puts that "title" on every post in the gg board. joeks.

goole, Friday, 24 October 2014 19:34 (Yesterday) Permalink

i mean, there's no way of knowing really.

goole, Friday, 24 October 2014 19:35 (Yesterday) Permalink

Everyone's grandma.

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Friday, 24 October 2014 19:39 (Yesterday) Permalink

https://twitter.com/Ugarles/status/498886333516251137

Adam Baldwin, meet clickhole.

raccoon shipoopi (how's life), Friday, 24 October 2014 20:41 (Yesterday) Permalink

loooooooooooooool

kissaroo and Tyler, too (DJP), Friday, 24 October 2014 20:46 (Yesterday) Permalink

Whatta maroon

bizarro gazzara, Friday, 24 October 2014 20:51 (Yesterday) Permalink

bizarro gazzara, Friday, 24 October 2014 20:52 (Yesterday) Permalink

good god that Marx WAS A FUCKING RAD DUDE quote is the best

Nhex, Friday, 24 October 2014 21:39 (Yesterday) Permalink


early 1st gen marxist

Steve 'n' Seagulls and Flock of Van Dammes (forksclovetofu), Friday, 24 October 2014 21:49 (Yesterday) Permalink

deepest sock imo

mookieproof, Friday, 24 October 2014 23:54 (Yesterday) Permalink

man i think i finally reached my limit on these smug shits and their absurd theories. i can't find this nonsense funny anymore, now i just want to punch everyone right in their stupid face.

i'd rather be arrested by you folks than by anybody i know (art), Saturday, 25 October 2014 00:22 (14 hours ago) Permalink

the greatest trick max r3ad ever played was . . .

mookieproof, Saturday, 25 October 2014 07:06 (7 hours ago) Permalink

it is incredible how much mileage they're getting out of completely misunderstanding everything about journalism

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Saturday, 25 October 2014 09:12 (5 hours ago) Permalink

well i guess it's just the right amount of mileage

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Saturday, 25 October 2014 09:13 (5 hours ago) Permalink

nick denton's private troll army exposed:

bizarro gazzara, Saturday, 25 October 2014 09:24 (5 hours ago) Permalink

bizarro gazzara, Saturday, 25 October 2014 09:24 (5 hours ago) Permalink

:(

bizarro gazzara, Saturday, 25 October 2014 09:25 (5 hours ago) Permalink

censored by the SJWs!

bizarro gazzara, Saturday, 25 October 2014 09:25 (5 hours ago) Permalink

oh shit a_girl_irl is back! gawker must've put him back on the payroll

you little affront to god (reddening), Saturday, 25 October 2014 09:42 (4 hours ago) Permalink

lag∞n, Saturday, 25 October 2014 14:06 (30 minutes ago) Permalink


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