Why is casual racism/sexism more accepted in video games than other forms of media (these days)?

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High hopes for this turning out a smart and civil discussion like the horror films why not thread, deep fears that it will descend into madness fyi

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:32 (four years ago) Permalink

i think it's bc games are competitive experiences and competition brings out the worst in human beings

― Mordy, Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:30 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:34 (four years ago) Permalink

idk i obv have some pretty strong concerns abt that wrt online FPS screaming idiots and the like, but i dont think that has as much to do with the games themselves (i mean obv its part of the experience but it isnt internalized content per se)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:36 (four years ago) Permalink

some of it is cultural differences/lack of knowledge between Asia and the West.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:39 (four years ago) Permalink

do you guys mean disgusting behavior in players or the games?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:40 (four years ago) Permalink

i mean ive heard some commentary on this but a lot of the big arguments are a little facile and outsidery to me, like the idea that games are a juvenilized form of entertainment and thus more prone to juvenile thinking

xxpost yeah bnw that is def one of the things that i think factors in

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (four years ago) Permalink

the sexism is definitely audience targeting. and it is depressingly dead on.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (four years ago) Permalink

i am talking abt the games, not the players, but obv there is going to be some reflection there wrt consumers influencing content etc

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:42 (four years ago) Permalink

it's not just that consumers influence the content, it's also that game creators are gamers themselves and exist in the gaming community. they play on the same multiplayer servers and their customers, they're influenced by the same games...

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (four years ago) Permalink

-demographics.
-the fact that computer games, for fairly obvious reasons, attract less sophisticated writers than other forms of media.

zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (four years ago) Permalink

was the new deus ex french? or french canadian? because thats def one of the weirdest examples of this - fairly thoughtful intellectual game and then whoa whats up with this homeless lady

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:44 (four years ago) Permalink

to be perjorative a bit, nerds' poor socialization extends to society broadly, not just socializing. and they get reeeaaally defensive when called on their shit.

combined with a post-rockstar "it's supposed to be funny!" attitude w/r/t this kind of shit and it's a toxic brew

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:45 (four years ago) Permalink

A big hook for many games is "by gamers, for gamers"; this means almost by design that a good chunk of regressive content is going to be present in the games since they are operating in this feedback loop where the social environment these games are created in is normalized to be incredibly shitty in a lot of ways.

For all of the equality for things like, say, making your character be male or female is a cosmetic change that doesn't affect your stats, you have things like all of the female iterations of the WoW races being as close to "busty cutie-pie" as the baseline skin will allow them to be (the undead and dwarf races are particularly comical re: this, but even the frickin' minotaur race has "sexy" female forms with cow heads).

xposts basically covered all of this but I am inflicting the concept of sexy cows on y'all anyway

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:46 (four years ago) Permalink

some of it is sort of legacy racism from the earlier forms of media that fed VGs? D&D, action movies, etc

xp oh god WoW haha

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:47 (four years ago) Permalink

how do you guys rank sexism/racism by systems? nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:48 (four years ago) Permalink

also, game content really not as important as ludic components (the best story can just barely redeem a game with terrible gameplay sometimes, while tons of beloved games have amazing gameplay and no story to speak of, or a really shitty story), so it's less important to designers to get stuff right with the content - which is where the racist/sexist stuff primarily exists

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (four years ago) Permalink

I mean... come on

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (four years ago) Permalink

actually feel like WoW held back a lot compared to some other games.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:50 (four years ago) Permalink

Skyrim has the same sort of issues. Like ... why does my lizard lady have tits.

polyphonic, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:51 (four years ago) Permalink

nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

have you ever played a Mario game??? also Punchout lololol.

zappi, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:52 (four years ago) Permalink

theyre not?

Lamp, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (four years ago) Permalink

mario racist against turtles?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (four years ago) Permalink

well sure, WoW isn't like Duke Nukem, but the point is more that the whole "moving comic book" medium that their art direction is based upon is super normalized in how the genders should be represented, to the point where even for races where it doesn't make sense for the males to be burly he-men and the women to be curvy sexpots, they still are

also, there's the female night elf dance (which is based on the famous Alizee clips that were zooming around the Internet in the early 00s):

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (four years ago) Permalink

copying this over from the other thread because i thinks it a very interesting and good point to think abt

i wonder if part of it is because games are often a solo experience (though not always of course) whereas movies, at some point in their release cycle at least, are experienced collectively? in other words, because the casual racism is easier for people to swallow by themselves as opposed to in a group?

― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 8:29 PM (25 minutes ago)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (four years ago) Permalink

okay lol @ Mario being so mainstreamed that all of the "MAMA MIA" and "IT'SA ME, MARIO!" interjections don't even register as caricature anymore

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (four years ago) Permalink

i disagree w/ ZS's assertion esp bc i think the most racist/sexist behavior re video games happens in their most collective experience (multiplayer)

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (four years ago) Permalink

Yeah I think this is pretty easily chalked up to creators pandering to (and being born of) the overwhelmingly 15-35 male demographics of AAA game buyers. The women and men who like and play AAA games but don't like sexualized representations of women in these games (and also comic books) make their voices heard but the majority of the audience would be bummed if you took away their lizardwoman tits.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (four years ago) Permalink

duh DJP you cant be racist against italians anymore, the godfather fixed that forever

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:58 (four years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:59 (four years ago) Permalink

did Mario ever say those lines or are we forcing racism on the poor guy? are we blaming his video game char for his cartoon version? important issues in my work day

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:00 (four years ago) Permalink

"it's a-me, Mario!" the sound of booting up Super Mario 64 iirc.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:01 (four years ago) Permalink

haha

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (four years ago) Permalink

lol gg then

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (four years ago) Permalink

fyi listening to that may drive you crazy

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:03 (four years ago) Permalink

the Mario Kart one is also insane

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (four years ago) Permalink

"So long, gay Bowser!"

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (four years ago) Permalink

Alot ofο»Ώ this sounds like hes sleeping with someone. *barfs*
PeachyzeldagirlXD 3 weeks ago

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:06 (four years ago) Permalink

Do u say "ravioli!" when u fuckin?

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (four years ago) Permalink

did they really get roberto benigni to do the voices?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (four years ago) Permalink

Everybody knows that Mario's wet dreams involve pasta and Bowser.

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:08 (four years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

I worked at a gaming geek/comic book store for a couple years and this kind of stuff is everywhere. the idea that females without massive bobs existed at some point is lost on these people

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:11 (four years ago) Permalink

haha awesome typo

"I like the writer but does the artist have to make every female character's hair so big?"

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:12 (four years ago) Permalink

i'ma luigi. nambar wan.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:14 (four years ago) Permalink

oh man my old college roommate used to say "yeah, peach has got it" in a squeaky ass voice all the time. mad nostalgia.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (four years ago) Permalink

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (four years ago) Permalink

I never played the Horde side of WoW with any regularity so I didn't realize that the trolls were all Jamaican until way way late in the game when I started a troll character because I was bored. Reading the quest text for most of the starter area was PAINFUL.

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (four years ago) Permalink

there's a ton of gender normalization in movies too, yeah?

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (four years ago) Permalink

im def not saying that movies are immune but i dont think you can make the argument that movies even approach the overt O_O aspects of video games wrt either of these

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:18 (four years ago) Permalink

(I also used to play WoW with the sound off and either Vent or iTunes going, so I missed a good chunk of the voice acting)

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:19 (four years ago) Permalink

oh yeah for sure, and movies as a genre are much more mature. but it seems to me that anytime you throw a lot of money at a project (either a blockbuster movie or a blockbuster game) you're gonna end up w/ some pretty unreasonable gender representations

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:20 (four years ago) Permalink

a lifetime's worth of resentment being acted out bc they have money basically

carthago delenda est (mayor jingleberries), Friday, 23 September 2016 21:22 (five months ago) Permalink

three weeks pass...

let's make casual sexism less accepted
http://gamecenter.nyu.edu/nyu-game-center-announces-new-scholarship-women-game-designers/

the notes the loon doesn't play (ulysses), Thursday, 20 October 2016 21:42 (four months ago) Permalink

two months pass...

Dan Olson from Folding Ideas actually subjected himself to that Sarkeesian slam-doc last year, wrote about the horrorific movie making on display

https://storify.com/FoldableHuman/has-davis-aurini-ever-seen-a-documentary

THE SKURJ OF FAKE NEWS. (kingfish), Tuesday, 10 January 2017 08:04 (one month ago) Permalink

two weeks pass...

fbi document dump

https://twitter.com/FBIRecordsVault/status/824693431100329984

goole, Thursday, 26 January 2017 21:48 (one month ago) Permalink

looks reasonable/accurate to me?

sheer presence, look and size (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 5 February 2017 09:52 (three weeks ago) Permalink

yeah, seems otm to me too

for sale: steve bannon waifu pillow (heavily soiled) (bizarro gazzara), Sunday, 5 February 2017 10:23 (three weeks ago) Permalink

i buy it tho idk if the recruiters were real (or even necessary) it's not like you need some special corruption to rediscover nazism all the ingredients (anger, self-loathing, fear, anonymity, cultural incrimination, cruel sarcastic humor, alienation) were there. nazism isn't like life where we haven't quite figured out abiogenesis yet - ppl throughout history have continually rediscovered bigotry. the whole "recruiter" idea smacks of apologism to me - oh, /our/ kids would never learn racism + anti-semitism + sexism if it weren't for those stormfront secret agents. but like their fucking parents told racist jokes at the dinner table and their dads shared inappropriate sexist jokes w/ their teenage sons - that's where this shit came from. ffs their parents voted for trump at a greater rate than their kids did. the only difference is that the parents lived close enough to the holocaust and the civil rights movement that they were still ashamed enough to mostly keep this shit on the down low (if even - i mean haven't u all heard some older white dude say some inappropriate shit to u bc they thought you were sympatico?) and their kids lived in a world where it seemed like these marginalized groups were doing okay - if not even better than they themselves (of course self-pity has always been a part of this toxic mix) - and besides fuck hypocrisy, dad, we should tell the truth about these fucking jews, etc.

Mordy, Sunday, 5 February 2017 15:23 (three weeks ago) Permalink

imo he "recruiters" weren't actual new-nazi orgs or whatever tapping this resource, but people who were already strongly racist to the extent they blame their own problems on other, specific groups. from there it's just connecting the dots from shitting on everyone and being "edgy" to specific targets

mh 😏, Sunday, 5 February 2017 15:44 (three weeks ago) Permalink

sheesh, neo-nazi, I mean. you get the gist

mh 😏, Sunday, 5 February 2017 15:44 (three weeks ago) Permalink

Yeah I wasn't taking the "recruiting" bit as fundamentally organized or programmatic so much as thinking the web is permeated with these shit-heels and amongst the angrier manchildren of the nerd communities they found a fertile matrix first to tolerate then to grow their politics

sheer presence, look and size (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 5 February 2017 16:07 (three weeks ago) Permalink

I remember a couple dudes I knew in high school who were practically wandering around looking to get recruited for something-or-another and they weren't even that socially awkward.

mh 😏, Sunday, 5 February 2017 16:13 (three weeks ago) Permalink

the faux-racism/-sexism that gets played up as being "edgy" isn't new, it's a long standing tactic used by people who have a vague grasp on their own identities defining themselves through exclusion

mh 😏, Sunday, 5 February 2017 16:15 (three weeks ago) Permalink

just reading about nazi furries and their "furred reich", kill me now

( X '____' )/ (zappi), Sunday, 5 February 2017 17:10 (three weeks ago) Permalink

there is this fixation these days with thinking that media shapes people. the internet stirs up extremism, the media's job is to influence popular opinion, fake news made people vote wrong, etc. i don't think violent movies/videogames/websites generally make people any more or less violent than they would be if they had some other media to express their violent tendencies. those tendencies are created more at home, by the behavior of their relatives, by their environment, by biological lottery, by familial genetic peculiarities, by the mental health spectrum, etc. everyone has a different experience growing up, and some people are exposed to violent things irl.

as for social awkwardness, it is an error to conflate that with anti-social behavior, and dangerous to couple that with tendencies towards extremism. there is a spectrum of social awkwardness, just as there is a spectrum of mental health. it is unfortunate that a modern (and ancient) solution to many problems is labeling the accused "mentally ill" and discard the problem, as if applying that label absolves any responsibility to then treat that person as a normal human. mental health (and disaba-phobia) is not just a medical issue it is a social justice issue and we've got a long way to go but it will be extremely worth it when we make progress - maybe we will find it is a root cause of many of our problems. besides captialism/over-medication doesn't seem to be doing us any favors.

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Sunday, 5 February 2017 17:17 (three weeks ago) Permalink

did you just "not all social awkward people" me?

mh 😏, Sunday, 5 February 2017 18:48 (three weeks ago) Permalink

i agree that culture has no effect whatsoever on the people who live in it

sheer presence, look and size (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 5 February 2017 18:50 (three weeks ago) Permalink

i mean haven't u all heard some older white dude say some inappropriate shit to u bc they thought you were sympatico?

No, actually.

ornate orchestral arrangements (DJP), Thursday, 9 February 2017 22:31 (two weeks ago) Permalink

oh god

mh 😏, Thursday, 9 February 2017 22:38 (two weeks ago) Permalink

xp touchΓ© tho i have no doubt u're aware of this phenomenon

Mordy, Thursday, 9 February 2017 23:52 (two weeks ago) Permalink

a rare note of positivity for this thread as nuclear-grade youtube irritant pewdiepie gets hammered for antisemitism

YouTube Cancels Pewdiepie's Show, Removes Him From Premium Advertising

for sale: steve bannon waifu pillow (heavily soiled) (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 15:24 (one week ago) Permalink

xp touchΓ© tho i have no doubt u're aware of this phenomenon

My experience with this is:

a) someone my own age says some offensive, horrifying shit to a white person with me because they forgot I'm not white
b) someone my own age says some offensive, horrifying shit to someone who looks like me and then says "oh I don't mean you, you're one of the good ones"

ornate orchestral arrangements (DJP), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 15:33 (one week ago) Permalink

or c) someone my own age says some offensive, horrifying shit to me because they want to put me in my place, but that hasn't happened in a while

ornate orchestral arrangements (DJP), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 15:33 (one week ago) Permalink

i've heard multiple variants of the phrase "he jewed me down on the price" from acquaintances my age (all from smaller towns or weird exurban enclaves) and the thing that kills me is that confronting them is usually some sort of "what do you mean I said something that... oh"

most recent happened in the presence of our jewish mutual friend o_O

mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 15:42 (one week ago) Permalink

the guy who sold me and my dad my first car told us he didn't want to jew us down on the price and we bit tongues and left with the car.

removed from the rain drops and drop tops of experience (ulysses), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 15:46 (one week ago) Permalink

Heard about the pewdiepie thing -- he's one of the most popular youtubers right? Was this bullshit creepingly evident all along in his thing?

his eye is on despair-o (Jon not Jon), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 17:43 (one week ago) Permalink

every youtube gaming personality is a south park character come to life

mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 17:55 (one week ago) Permalink

specifically some weird cross between Cartman and Mr Garrison

ornate orchestral arrangements (DJP), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 17:59 (one week ago) Permalink

i hear the "jew'd" me thing often enough that tbph as offended as i am i just assume it's unconscious bigotry and not conscious maliciousness. i think i've told this story before but more troubling is when my parents were buying a car and the salesperson asked them what it feels like to be members of the most despised people on earth.

Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:04 (one week ago) Permalink

"You mean besides car salespeople?"

tales of a scorched-earth nothing (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:06 (one week ago) Permalink

(sorry, that was dumb)

tales of a scorched-earth nothing (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:06 (one week ago) Permalink

i think they were too shocked to retort (and they're not those kinds of ppl anyway) - fwiw they did not purchase a car from him

Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:07 (one week ago) Permalink

my wife and i have a friend who said something about not wanting to be "jew'd down", and my wife chalked it up to something akin to using "gyp", but we both agreed that it's insane to actually say that, even unconsciously imo. but our friend, she's also from another part of the country where it might be extremely common. i dunno where it's common, i never heard it growing up around me (i heard other reprehensible shit) so it still shocks me.

nomar, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:10 (one week ago) Permalink

isn't gyp a slur too tho

adam, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:19 (one week ago) Permalink

yes don't use it

Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:20 (one week ago) Permalink

I think that was nomar's point? ie it's a slur but an unconscious one that a bunch of people who use it don't actually interrogate to notice what they're actually saying (which is insane but also how part and parcel of the unreliable narrative/selective memory ppl use to convince themselves that 100% of the time they are good ppl)

ornate orchestral arrangements (DJP), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:21 (one week ago) Permalink

remember when jaymc said "coon's age" in that one thread

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:31 (one week ago) Permalink

really we just need a meme drive to purge all those phrases and replace them with "saxophone"

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:35 (one week ago) Permalink

Yeah, it's in this weird zone where it's absolutely a slur - I don't use it, I call it out when I hear it, and I'd expect say an ilxor not to use it. But I expect that 95+% of the people who use it (a) have no idea it's a slur (b) have no idea it's even short for "Gypsy" (c) have no idea "Gypsy" refers to a specific ethnic group that still exists in the world and not just in vaguely-remembered childhood tales or romanticized pop songs.

All those things need to be corrected obviously - similar to lots of American idioms that are descended from racist slurs and are long overdue for being re-examined and purged from the language. But still a little different from, say, my late father, who was brought up to be specifically suspicious of present-day Gypsies, that they would steal your stuff and that's why you should put valuable things in the trunk before you leave the house and not when you arrive at your destination, etc.

tales of a scorched-earth nothing (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:41 (one week ago) Permalink

the difference being that large portions of the US have no no cultural understanding that "gypped" (people even write it as "jipped") has anything to do with romani people, and people use "gypsy" as some sort of romanticized word for someone who's somewhat nomadic, not even in a negative way

there's no cultural disconnect from "jew'd", it's all right there

mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:47 (one week ago) Permalink

xp to DC saying my point

mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:47 (one week ago) Permalink

removed from the rain drops and drop tops of experience (ulysses), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:50 (one week ago) Permalink

It reminds me of the whole south park comparison -- paradoxically, I go into full-on stereotype mode when I see news of these video game/youtube idiots throwing out racist crap because I am sure that 2/3 of them have no life experience outside of video games. They go to a very socially homogenous school/workplace, go to some clothing/food/supply superstore like Target or Wal-Mart in their exurb/suburb and then going back to play more video games and yell racial slurs online. Because they only have a vague idea of a human cultural experience that doesn't involve the narrow slice they've been served up, and it's like a bizarro world monoculture

mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:56 (one week ago) Permalink

the difference being that large portions of the US have no no cultural understanding that "gypped" (people even write it as "jipped") has anything to do with romani people, and people use "gypsy" as some sort of romanticized word for someone who's somewhat nomadic, not even in a negative way

there's no cultural disconnect from "jew'd", it's all right there

This is why I said it was insane.

ornate orchestral arrangements (DJP), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:42 (one week ago) Permalink

kinda surprised trump hasn't used it as a sign of his respect for the jewish people's negotiating prowess

mookieproof, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:48 (one week ago) Permalink

Do you think that figure is higher or lower than non-Youtubers?

Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:48 (one week ago) Permalink

xp he's completely oblivious about nuance, so I'm sure he has

it's like that article about how the television show people had to get him to stop referring to lil jon as "uncle tom" -- it wasn't that he didn't know it was bad, it was that he thought it was funny he was saying a bad phrase, but it was also obvious he had absolutely no idea what an "uncle tom" was or any idea of context

mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:52 (one week ago) Permalink

PDP was running w the kind of schtick that has been South Park's bread and butter for decades. not just SP though, ironic racism is par for the course for edgy modern comedy, even progressive Colbert had his "ironic" asian/latin stereotypes as re-occurring gags. i think the joke is meant to be "We are so far past this stuff that it's absurdly beyond us (and kitschy) to indulge in archaic styles of exploitation". it is a form of privilege denial that makes one oblivious to the fact that they are just spreading more hate.

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 16 February 2017 22:46 (one week ago) Permalink

that's what made Colbert doing it so much more egregious than SP or someone like PDP imo, he should've known better

Nhex, Thursday, 16 February 2017 22:50 (one week ago) Permalink


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