Why is casual racism/sexism more accepted in video games than other forms of media (these days)?

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High hopes for this turning out a smart and civil discussion like the horror films why not thread, deep fears that it will descend into madness fyi

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

i think it's bc games are competitive experiences and competition brings out the worst in human beings

― Mordy, Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:30 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

idk i obv have some pretty strong concerns abt that wrt online FPS screaming idiots and the like, but i dont think that has as much to do with the games themselves (i mean obv its part of the experience but it isnt internalized content per se)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

some of it is cultural differences/lack of knowledge between Asia and the West.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

do you guys mean disgusting behavior in players or the games?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

i mean ive heard some commentary on this but a lot of the big arguments are a little facile and outsidery to me, like the idea that games are a juvenilized form of entertainment and thus more prone to juvenile thinking

xxpost yeah bnw that is def one of the things that i think factors in

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

the sexism is definitely audience targeting. and it is depressingly dead on.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

i am talking abt the games, not the players, but obv there is going to be some reflection there wrt consumers influencing content etc

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's not just that consumers influence the content, it's also that game creators are gamers themselves and exist in the gaming community. they play on the same multiplayer servers and their customers, they're influenced by the same games...

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

-demographics.
-the fact that computer games, for fairly obvious reasons, attract less sophisticated writers than other forms of media.

zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

was the new deus ex french? or french canadian? because thats def one of the weirdest examples of this - fairly thoughtful intellectual game and then whoa whats up with this homeless lady

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

to be perjorative a bit, nerds' poor socialization extends to society broadly, not just socializing. and they get reeeaaally defensive when called on their shit.

combined with a post-rockstar "it's supposed to be funny!" attitude w/r/t this kind of shit and it's a toxic brew

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

A big hook for many games is "by gamers, for gamers"; this means almost by design that a good chunk of regressive content is going to be present in the games since they are operating in this feedback loop where the social environment these games are created in is normalized to be incredibly shitty in a lot of ways.

For all of the equality for things like, say, making your character be male or female is a cosmetic change that doesn't affect your stats, you have things like all of the female iterations of the WoW races being as close to "busty cutie-pie" as the baseline skin will allow them to be (the undead and dwarf races are particularly comical re: this, but even the frickin' minotaur race has "sexy" female forms with cow heads).

xposts basically covered all of this but I am inflicting the concept of sexy cows on y'all anyway

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

some of it is sort of legacy racism from the earlier forms of media that fed VGs? D&D, action movies, etc

xp oh god WoW haha

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

how do you guys rank sexism/racism by systems? nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

also, game content really not as important as ludic components (the best story can just barely redeem a game with terrible gameplay sometimes, while tons of beloved games have amazing gameplay and no story to speak of, or a really shitty story), so it's less important to designers to get stuff right with the content - which is where the racist/sexist stuff primarily exists

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

I mean... come on

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

actually feel like WoW held back a lot compared to some other games.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

Skyrim has the same sort of issues. Like ... why does my lizard lady have tits.

polyphonic, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

have you ever played a Mario game??? also Punchout lololol.

zappi, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

theyre not?

Lamp, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

mario racist against turtles?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

well sure, WoW isn't like Duke Nukem, but the point is more that the whole "moving comic book" medium that their art direction is based upon is super normalized in how the genders should be represented, to the point where even for races where it doesn't make sense for the males to be burly he-men and the women to be curvy sexpots, they still are

also, there's the female night elf dance (which is based on the famous Alizee clips that were zooming around the Internet in the early 00s):

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

copying this over from the other thread because i thinks it a very interesting and good point to think abt

i wonder if part of it is because games are often a solo experience (though not always of course) whereas movies, at some point in their release cycle at least, are experienced collectively? in other words, because the casual racism is easier for people to swallow by themselves as opposed to in a group?

― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 8:29 PM (25 minutes ago)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

okay lol @ Mario being so mainstreamed that all of the "MAMA MIA" and "IT'SA ME, MARIO!" interjections don't even register as caricature anymore

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

i disagree w/ ZS's assertion esp bc i think the most racist/sexist behavior re video games happens in their most collective experience (multiplayer)

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yeah I think this is pretty easily chalked up to creators pandering to (and being born of) the overwhelmingly 15-35 male demographics of AAA game buyers. The women and men who like and play AAA games but don't like sexualized representations of women in these games (and also comic books) make their voices heard but the majority of the audience would be bummed if you took away their lizardwoman tits.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

duh DJP you cant be racist against italians anymore, the godfather fixed that forever

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

did Mario ever say those lines or are we forcing racism on the poor guy? are we blaming his video game char for his cartoon version? important issues in my work day

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

"it's a-me, Mario!" the sound of booting up Super Mario 64 iirc.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

lol gg then

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

fyi listening to that may drive you crazy

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

the Mario Kart one is also insane

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

"So long, gay Bowser!"

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

Alot of this sounds like hes sleeping with someone. *barfs*
PeachyzeldagirlXD 3 weeks ago

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

Do u say "ravioli!" when u fuckin?

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

did they really get roberto benigni to do the voices?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

Everybody knows that Mario's wet dreams involve pasta and Bowser.

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

I worked at a gaming geek/comic book store for a couple years and this kind of stuff is everywhere. the idea that females without massive bobs existed at some point is lost on these people

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha awesome typo

"I like the writer but does the artist have to make every female character's hair so big?"

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

i'ma luigi. nambar wan.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

oh man my old college roommate used to say "yeah, peach has got it" in a squeaky ass voice all the time. mad nostalgia.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

I never played the Horde side of WoW with any regularity so I didn't realize that the trolls were all Jamaican until way way late in the game when I started a troll character because I was bored. Reading the quest text for most of the starter area was PAINFUL.

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

there's a ton of gender normalization in movies too, yeah?

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

im def not saying that movies are immune but i dont think you can make the argument that movies even approach the overt O_O aspects of video games wrt either of these

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

(I also used to play WoW with the sound off and either Vent or iTunes going, so I missed a good chunk of the voice acting)

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

oh yeah for sure, and movies as a genre are much more mature. but it seems to me that anytime you throw a lot of money at a project (either a blockbuster movie or a blockbuster game) you're gonna end up w/ some pretty unreasonable gender representations

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

are you all following @MomsAgainstGam ? some of the funniest shit ever

https://twitter.com/StevenJCBuckley/status/590512241520160768

https://twitter.com/GamersForGaming/status/589627287349305345

goole, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:08 (1 month ago) Permalink

tho the funniest convo i've come across from this universe lately has been this:

https://twitter.com/Chriss_m/status/590556383843586049

goole, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:09 (1 month ago) Permalink

It's truly the best test of finding the completely tone-deaf gamers

mh, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:09 (1 month ago) Permalink

Have these gamers heard of app.net or w/e? Is that still a running concern, the for-pay twitter alternative that is all software developers and pretentious web developers who wanted their own network? Maybe they can all migrate to that.

mh, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:11 (1 month ago) Permalink

oh christ louise mensch weighing in on the comments on @chriss_m's hot take

bizarro gazzara, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:11 (1 month ago) Permalink

i know!

goole, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:12 (1 month ago) Permalink

Jules ‏@AnaLoGMunKy 19h19 hours ago

@Chriss_m Cant see myself being on twitter much longer. Without dissent, debate is impossible.

without death threats and doxxing, debate is impossible

bizarro gazzara, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:13 (1 month ago) Permalink

Corey Vaughn ‏@Rekonocide 18h18 hours ago

@Chriss_m If this worked perfectly then maybe it would be fine, but we don't have AI with the ability to decide if something is hate it not.

guys can we teach computers to love?

bizarro gazzara, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:13 (1 month ago) Permalink

Doing a PhD on US politics, journalism, YouTube and emotions. Media critic. I also teach and write a bit.

mh, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:15 (1 month ago) Permalink

makes your blood run cold doesn't it

goole, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:18 (1 month ago) Permalink

I heard a segment on the BBC World Service yesterday that was an American reporter doing this naive interview thing in an economically-depressed UK town. I think coming to the politics of another nation from a state of ignorance is a cool take B)

I mean, at least as far as entertainment goes, until it becomes some Canadians telling you how Ron Paul seems pretty reasonable. That was a really bad conversation I took part in.

mh, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:22 (1 month ago) Permalink

Fedora ze WEEDsmoker

NotKnowPotato (stevie), Wednesday, 22 April 2015 14:38 (1 month ago) Permalink

Have these gamers heard of app.net or w/e? Is that still a running concern, the for-pay twitter alternative that is all software developers and pretentious web developers who wanted their own network? Maybe they can all migrate to that.

― mh, Wednesday, April 22, 2015 7:11 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Revenue couldn't sustain their paid developers, still working I suppose but last blog post was a year ago when they basically announced their plan failed.

brunch technician (silby), Wednesday, 22 April 2015 18:09 (1 month ago) Permalink

I'd never have guessed

mh, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 18:14 (1 month ago) Permalink

lol at "mom will take your games"

Premise ridiculous. Who have two potato? (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 22 April 2015 19:22 (1 month ago) Permalink

boston magazine published this. it's good!

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/article/2015/04/28/gamergate/

they are not happy

goole, Wednesday, 29 April 2015 16:58 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

we, #gamergate, hereby petition you, matthew reed baker, to correct factual inaccuracies in zachary jason's #gamergate article "game of fear", the details of which we decline to specify

bizarro gazzara, Wednesday, 29 April 2015 19:10 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

just ask milo, he can set you right or whatever

bizarro gazzara, Wednesday, 29 April 2015 19:10 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

We recommend Milo Yiannopoulos, an established journalist who can correct these misguided assertations, as the point of contact.

Doktor Van Peebles (kingfish), Thursday, 30 April 2015 07:46 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

"assertations"

NotKnowPotato (stevie), Thursday, 30 April 2015 08:25 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

these feebs

NotKnowPotato (stevie), Thursday, 30 April 2015 08:25 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

It is a word, albeit one that signals that you're probably 100 characters from 'tis.

Andrew Farrell, Thursday, 30 April 2015 08:26 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

ugh shame on his friends for encouraging his crazy stalker nonsense

After crafting the post for weeks, Gjoni shared his polished draft with about a dozen friends—mostly female game developers—as well as his mother, and asked them to weigh in on whether he should unleash it. He says about 10 of them gave him the green light. His mother, he claims, reluctantly approved, but was “very worried that I was going into it overly emotional.” One Gjoni friend I spoke with, who wished to remain anonymous for fear of reprisal, said, “I felt it was healthy to get it out there…. What harm would it do to get his feelings out?”

panettone for the painfully alone (mayor jingleberries), Thursday, 30 April 2015 22:18 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

some of the other friends he spoke to

entry-level umami (mild bleu cheese vibes) (s.clover), Thursday, 30 April 2015 22:42 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

i can't even tell if that change.org petition is a joke or not

pilate is my cogod (Crabbits), Thursday, 30 April 2015 22:50 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

https://archive.is/piayJ#selection-211.0-213.1

polyphonic, Friday, 1 May 2015 21:34 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

Kluwe concluded it’d be wise to start a war with a man who writes 5,000 words a day and practices Gorilla Mindset principles. This was a disastrous mistake on Kluwe’s part. The more Kluwe threw at me, the more I laughed.

https://archive.is/piayJ

mookieproof, Friday, 1 May 2015 21:36 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

lol

mookieproof, Friday, 1 May 2015 21:36 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

that horrible decline in looks when you're not on television with professional lighting, cameras, and makeup

ultimate american sock (mh), Friday, 1 May 2015 23:06 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

https://vine.co/v/ObjHlK2MTMa

, Saturday, 2 May 2015 13:02 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

bomb threat against a GG meetup in a DC bar last night. fucking gross.

goole, Sunday, 3 May 2015 00:13 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

False flag, surely?

JimD, Sunday, 3 May 2015 09:54 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

well no, but they did immediately blame the threat on arthur chu. cos he had apparently emailed the bar earlier in the day telling them it was bad to host a right wing group (lol at trying to tell a DC bar to take a partisan stand on their clientele)

i'd really like to forget about this 'movement' but they are still just everywhere. a favorite ("favorite") game of mine is a little degree-of-separation check. i only really run across them on twitter since i don't go to any game webspaces anymore.

basically, if you see some dumb right wing fuckery or lunkhead #actually backtalk on twitter, check the RT and responses -- you will find GG there. conversely, if some videogame microcontroversy finds its way into your timeline, see who else is on it, pushing it -- you will find the right wing.

goole, Monday, 4 May 2015 21:17 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Social Justice Warriors made Joss Whedon quit twitter :(

polyphonic, Monday, 4 May 2015 21:34 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

u got it twisted: http://pastebin.com/kHLbNuHx

entry-level umami (mild bleu cheese vibes) (s.clover), Tuesday, 5 May 2015 07:15 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

the main thing i got from that link is that captain america calls someone a cunt in the avengers movie? wtf?

Premise ridiculous. Who have two potato? (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 5 May 2015 07:19 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Uh, that isn't real, right?

emil.y, Tuesday, 5 May 2015 11:29 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

of course it's real, pastebin is Whedon's own site

( who ALSO my boss and his sister!) (sic), Tuesday, 5 May 2015 11:53 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Haaaaaa

emil.y, Tuesday, 5 May 2015 12:03 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Kluwe is really suffering in his nice house he has in California with all that horrible free time and money

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 5 May 2015 12:29 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

http://laurajmixon.com/2014/11/a-report-on-damage-done-by-one-individual-under-several-names/

Not really about games (although they are involved), but definitely scary fandom stuff.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 6 May 2015 18:14 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

that's way beyond fandom; that's a sociopathic writer going after the competition!

Nhex, Wednesday, 6 May 2015 19:22 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

It wasn't just attacks on competition though, and fantasy writers tend to be immersed in fandom unless they're a huge bestseller.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 6 May 2015 20:01 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

look man, the market demands it

Nhex, Monday, 11 May 2015 13:58 (1 week ago) Permalink

HarpoBloodr0se

But I like soft boobs...=C

If people appreciate it, there’s a reason for it to exist.

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 11 May 2015 15:31 (1 week ago) Permalink

not video games but I saw this earlier and couldn't stop laughing, I think it's the capitalization that got me

( X '____' )/ (zappi), Saturday, 16 May 2015 19:11 (1 week ago) Permalink

capitals are for emphasizing important things

ultimate american sock (mh), Saturday, 16 May 2015 19:38 (1 week ago) Permalink

bizarro gazzara, Saturday, 16 May 2015 20:07 (1 week ago) Permalink


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