and for the millionth time, there's of course gonna be overlap, there's gonna be games that are art-like and art that is game-like, but i don't think that proves anything either way
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:13 (ten years ago) link
idk why but this thread put me in mind of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedge_maze
― goole, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:15 (ten years ago) link
AFAIC, all art is about playing within a set of parameters.
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:18 (ten years ago) link
I think this thing that goes on in your brain when playing games will map quite readily to that thing painters or writers experience in the midst of their creative fevers
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:19 (ten years ago) link
ie something made to have a pleasurable experience purely of geometric space. sure there's a "narrative" in the sense of "i went in, i turned this way, i turned the other way, i got lost, i turned around" -- but idk if events merely taking place in time rly qualifies as narrative fwiw -- but story is not the point, experience in itself is
maybe, this, too?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandala
but i'm out of my element there
― goole, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:19 (ten years ago) link
http://i.imgur.com/xQnJTqe.gif
― am0n, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:19 (ten years ago) link
A+ gif, would watch again
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:22 (ten years ago) link
portrait of the artist as a young snake
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:23 (ten years ago) link
oh my god
― goole, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:23 (ten years ago) link
that gif was literally the most thrilling thing i've seen all year
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:28 (ten years ago) link
could feel my blood pressure going up tbh
― goole, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:30 (ten years ago) link
― Philip Nunez, Friday, June 14, 2013 12:19 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark
i don't think the way i, as a gamer, make decisions in the middle of a game of poker or mario or whatever, has anything to do with the way i make decisions when working on a creative project. at all. there is nothing aesthetic at all about a decision i make to fold or raise. sorry but i dont buy this.
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:30 (ten years ago) link
I guess... Get better at poker?
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:31 (ten years ago) link
yeah i'm skeptical of that too but idk anything about the brain so who knows
what i've read about the 'flow' state of the brain while people are at work doesn't really line up with playing a game to me
xp lol zing damn
― goole, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:32 (ten years ago) link
getting deathdroney up in here
comparison of games to art is one thing, but what about the comparison of games to work?
― goole, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:34 (ten years ago) link
do you games-are-arters think that sports are an art form as well? is football art?
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:35 (ten years ago) link
if not, i'd like to know why.
when you practice any activity a lot it becomes internalized and much of it becomes automatic so it's at that level that expression is really visible.but even as a beginner some expression leaks through but mostly it's frustration
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:36 (ten years ago) link
if i want to express myself through creating a video game, i can. i can make a video game about another world or about school shootings or about geometry or about football. if i want to express myself through football...
― sleepingbag, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:39 (ten years ago) link
what if the creator of football wanted to express something about human dynamics or war or something?
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:41 (ten years ago) link
in your first case, you're a creator, in the second you're a player, so i don't think that works
because one gives you the opportunity to create and one doesn't!
― sleepingbag, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:42 (ten years ago) link
is football art?
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, June 14, 2013 10:35 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, June 14, 2013 10:35 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
now u know dog
― sleepingbag, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:43 (ten years ago) link
is horseshoe throwing art?
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:43 (ten years ago) link
i guess we're at the that point in the thread now, huh
― Nhex, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:43 (ten years ago) link
― sleepingbag, Friday, June 14, 2013 12:42 PM (33 seconds ago) Bookmark
what? i don't get your point here at all. you're using two totally different set of criteria for each.
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:44 (ten years ago) link
well is it? is horseshoe throwing art? if not, what makes it different than pong?
comparison of games to art is one thing, but what about the comparison of games to work?― goole, Friday, June 14, 2013
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:46 (ten years ago) link
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, June 14, 2013 10:44 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
because they're two categorically different things, qed
― sleepingbag, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:47 (ten years ago) link
xp tbf that was before BIOSHOCK INFANTTIT
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:47 (ten years ago) link
― sleepingbag, Friday, June 14, 2013 12:47 PM (33 seconds ago) Bookmark
you're saying video games are art, because you can express something by CREATING a video gamebut that football isn't, because you can't express something by PLAYING football
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:48 (ten years ago) link
An interesting analogue is operating systems where creators certainly express a certain philosophy about how to do things, but like games (and you can think of operating systems as a kind of game), the constraints of what make for a good os will forever blunt your expressive capacity.For example I'm pretty sure everyone would be happier if ios7 were approached by apple as a craft rather than an art.
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:49 (ten years ago) link
xp you can create another football with different aesthetics i guess if you want, and maybe if others join in you can start a burgeoning artform that way, but the way they exist now means you can create a video game to express something particular where you can't really do anything analogous in the realm of sports far as i can tell
― sleepingbag, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:51 (ten years ago) link
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/55/Baseketball.jpg/220px-Baseketball.jpg
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:53 (ten years ago) link
ur flailing a bit s1ocks
i think of athletes as artists to the extent that athletics when done well are creative motion and displays of improvisational and choreographed movement at peak efficiency and grace, so sorta related to dance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__SoKrmlHn4
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:53 (ten years ago) link
Vince McMahon expressed something in particular in forming xfl
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:53 (ten years ago) link
i wouldn't argue Pong is art. but are you seriously comparing horseshoes to Parappa the Rapper, Final Fantasy, Shadow of the Colossus, the entire canon of all videogames created in the last 30 years, etc. etc.?
― Nhex, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:54 (ten years ago) link
let's ask her
― they are either militarists (ugh) or kangaroos (?) (DJP), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:55 (ten years ago) link
Pong can be art!http://www.citypaper.net/cover_story/King_of_Pong.html
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:56 (ten years ago) link
― Nhex, Friday, June 14, 2013 12:54 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark
um... yes?
in the same way that i could compare a mondrian painting to a jerry bruckheimer movie—one is way bigger and more detailed but they're both recognizably "art"
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:57 (ten years ago) link
xp whoa
― Nhex, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:57 (ten years ago) link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=eFh8aI9TbQw
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:57 (ten years ago) link
like i said above, more than once, i do agree that you can call basically ANYTHING "art"
so yes, you can say that pong on a skyscraper is art, especially for someone just watching it
but that doesn't get us closer to the real question, which is "is playing pong an artistic experience?" nothing in this thread has convinced me of this
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:58 (ten years ago) link
i think of athletes as artists to the extent that athletics when done well are creative motion and displays of improvisational and choreographed movement at peak efficiency and grace, so sorta related to dance.
are soldiers in combat artists?
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 17:00 (ten years ago) link
the motivation for any given action in sports or in games derives from non-aesthetic considerations. this is a huge & fundamental difference
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 17:01 (ten years ago) link
commercial considerations really ought to be let into play then if that's the route.
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 14 June 2013 17:02 (ten years ago) link
describing it as art might be a neat or illuminating (or metaphorical) way to "think about it," sure, but it seems like you're missing the bigger picture there
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 17:03 (ten years ago) link
and i think a lot of that comes from a sense that video games will only be recognized as "worthy" in some way if we can convince everyone they're works of art. why not exalt them as ludic masterpieces? as their own and awesome category of Things Humans Do?
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 17:04 (ten years ago) link
A really great game to me would be exalted more like a really great pencil or brush is exalted and there isn't a center for critical writing utensil studies necessary
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 14 June 2013 17:08 (ten years ago) link