i think i see the our main difference here - i don't see the definition of art as something that has to be experienced a certain way, but more important is the intentions of the creator and what they are creating
― Nhex, Friday, 14 June 2013 15:59 (ten years ago) link
we tend to blame singular people for the vision expressed by a movie even though an actor and a team of writers and artisans were responsible for jar jar
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 14 June 2013 15:59 (ten years ago) link
well if someone wants to make the argument that the player is an artist and that each play-through of a video game or poker is a unique work of art, i'd like to hear it, but i'm dubious! it seems like you're just looking for a way to define video games as art because you want them to be (as forks has kind of admitted to doing)
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:00 (ten years ago) link
in this reader's opinion, it's more that the arguments against are not convincing so games might as well be art whether or not anyone can pinpoint why
― sleepingbag, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:02 (ten years ago) link
xp lucas signed the checks!
s1ocki i think you may be leading a little bit here. video games are products created by individuals or team of artists, often self-described as artistic works with artistic intentions. isn't that enough to go on without the accusations?
― Nhex, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:03 (ten years ago) link
i think games deserve to be "taken seriously," and written about well. i wonder if the wish to call them art doesn't consist of basically just that.
― goole, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:04 (ten years ago) link
I'm really more descriptive rather than prescriptive, but my preference would be for video games to be exempt from art altogether so that we can get more video game equivalents of the shaggs not being compelled to do 4/4 time because of these art expectations that are thrust upon them.
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:05 (ten years ago) link
so your argument is that video games are art, but the players are the artists, and not the creators?
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:05 (ten years ago) link
Achievement Unlocked: Cried in Front of Marina Abramovic
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:06 (ten years ago) link
it seems like you're just looking for a way to define video games as art because you want them to be (as forks has kind of admitted to doing)
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:07 (ten years ago) link
― goole, Friday, June 14, 2013 12:04 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark
i totally agree with this!
i think that there are more interesting ways to write/think about games than slotting them into the art category, and that trying to wrestle them into the art cage limits the way we think about them
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:07 (ten years ago) link
But re: players as artists -- you express something through play and players at the top level are expressing more than simple button presses
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:08 (ten years ago) link
s10cks, you're kinda lumping all and any arguments here into a target for your larger point which seems to be games aren't art because... because why now?
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:08 (ten years ago) link
that's what i've spent this entire thread trying to unpack d00d :)
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:09 (ten years ago) link
xp to philip: i don't feel video games are being forced by expectations to conform as a medium. for AAA million dollar projects, yes, but that's no different from the film industry because of the money involved. if anything, the tools to make games are more accessible and easier to use than they've ever been, which lets more people make anything they want in flash, unity, whatever
― Nhex, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:09 (ten years ago) link
btw forks completely otm here, thanks for expressing these things coherently
― Nhex, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:10 (ten years ago) link
i'm not gonna cosign with "gamers as artists"... maybe closer to athletes i guess? there are exceptions, games that allow the gamer to create from within and some of those games are interesting and allow for artistic achievement (say, sound shapes for instance) but that's mostly art at the lego level: potentially interesting but as a rule more about playing within a set of parameters
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:10 (ten years ago) link
let's just keep the commercial aspect out of this, i think it's well-established that commercial concerns have nothing to do with whether something is art or not
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:10 (ten years ago) link
sorry i meant "athletes"
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:11 (ten years ago) link
hand/eye coordinathletics
― am0n, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:12 (ten years ago) link
that's mostly art at the lego level: potentially interesting but as a rule more about playing within a set of parameters
Does anyone else think this is a meaningless statement? AFAIC, all art is about playing within a set of parameters.
― they are either militarists (ugh) or kangaroos (?) (DJP), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:12 (ten years ago) link
I think critical expectations can be just as damaging and constraining as commercial ones. In clowes manifesto he cites comic debasement as a strength in that respect
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:12 (ten years ago) link
again i need to emphasize that my conviction that games are not art has nothing to do with how "low" or "gutter" the medium is, it's based on my experience with video games as being categorically different from the way i experience literally any kind of art—i think there is something going on in games, something very interesting, that is distinct, that very likely uses a different part of your brain
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:12 (ten years ago) link
and for the millionth time, there's of course gonna be overlap, there's gonna be games that are art-like and art that is game-like, but i don't think that proves anything either way
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:13 (ten years ago) link
idk why but this thread put me in mind of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedge_maze
― goole, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:15 (ten years ago) link
AFAIC, all art is about playing within a set of parameters.
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:18 (ten years ago) link
I think this thing that goes on in your brain when playing games will map quite readily to that thing painters or writers experience in the midst of their creative fevers
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:19 (ten years ago) link
ie something made to have a pleasurable experience purely of geometric space. sure there's a "narrative" in the sense of "i went in, i turned this way, i turned the other way, i got lost, i turned around" -- but idk if events merely taking place in time rly qualifies as narrative fwiw -- but story is not the point, experience in itself is
maybe, this, too?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandala
but i'm out of my element there
― goole, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:19 (ten years ago) link
http://i.imgur.com/xQnJTqe.gif
― am0n, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:19 (ten years ago) link
A+ gif, would watch again
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:22 (ten years ago) link
portrait of the artist as a young snake
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:23 (ten years ago) link
oh my god
― goole, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:23 (ten years ago) link
that gif was literally the most thrilling thing i've seen all year
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:28 (ten years ago) link
could feel my blood pressure going up tbh
― goole, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:30 (ten years ago) link
― Philip Nunez, Friday, June 14, 2013 12:19 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark
i don't think the way i, as a gamer, make decisions in the middle of a game of poker or mario or whatever, has anything to do with the way i make decisions when working on a creative project. at all. there is nothing aesthetic at all about a decision i make to fold or raise. sorry but i dont buy this.
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:30 (ten years ago) link
I guess... Get better at poker?
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:31 (ten years ago) link
yeah i'm skeptical of that too but idk anything about the brain so who knows
what i've read about the 'flow' state of the brain while people are at work doesn't really line up with playing a game to me
xp lol zing damn
― goole, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:32 (ten years ago) link
getting deathdroney up in here
comparison of games to art is one thing, but what about the comparison of games to work?
― goole, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:34 (ten years ago) link
do you games-are-arters think that sports are an art form as well? is football art?
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:35 (ten years ago) link
if not, i'd like to know why.
when you practice any activity a lot it becomes internalized and much of it becomes automatic so it's at that level that expression is really visible.but even as a beginner some expression leaks through but mostly it's frustration
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:36 (ten years ago) link
if i want to express myself through creating a video game, i can. i can make a video game about another world or about school shootings or about geometry or about football. if i want to express myself through football...
― sleepingbag, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:39 (ten years ago) link
what if the creator of football wanted to express something about human dynamics or war or something?
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:41 (ten years ago) link
in your first case, you're a creator, in the second you're a player, so i don't think that works
because one gives you the opportunity to create and one doesn't!
― sleepingbag, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:42 (ten years ago) link
is football art?
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, June 14, 2013 10:35 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, June 14, 2013 10:35 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
now u know dog
― sleepingbag, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:43 (ten years ago) link
is horseshoe throwing art?
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:43 (ten years ago) link
i guess we're at the that point in the thread now, huh
― Nhex, Friday, 14 June 2013 16:43 (ten years ago) link
― sleepingbag, Friday, June 14, 2013 12:42 PM (33 seconds ago) Bookmark
what? i don't get your point here at all. you're using two totally different set of criteria for each.
― we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Friday, 14 June 2013 16:44 (ten years ago) link