the rolling Final Crisis thread

I gather that he has a vision of the end times in the same way that Kamandi has a vision of him--one of the effects of CoIE, and this crisis too, is that times are collapsed together in an alpha-and-omega way--the first boy on Earth encountering the last boy on Earth.

I got this part, but what I would've liked the comic to explain is, A) how Kamandi knew about Metron's pattern, and B) how did he relay that info Black Lightning? Or did Black Lightning get the info from someone else? Kamandi's appearances in FC make little sense from the point of view of the story; he's basically there to emphasize certain plot points, but it's impossible to know what exactly happens to him and why.

Sonny Sumo is a version of a character who encountered the New Gods in the Kirby era--that version was sent to the past thanks to the Omega Effect, this one says something to the effect that he fell out of another world into this one & this Sonny Sumo's old life.

I thought this explanation Sonny Sumo gives is curious. If he's someone else than the real Sonny Sumo's life, does that mean he's actually a New God who fell into Sonny Sumo's body, just like Darkseid fell into "Dark Side's" body? Anyway, Sonny Sumo is yet another character who's relevance to the plot is flimsy. Mr. Miracle comes to recruit him, and supposedly he has some good reason to do that, but Sonny doesn't really do anything in the story, does he?

The hand writing "know evil" is a sort of digital/Earthly analogue to the hand writing messages on the Source Wall.

I still think it also has to do something with the Hand of Glory in The Invisibles. I think the fact that The Hand of Glory was called a "cursor that moves in time" in The Invisibles, and the "know evil" hand being an actual cursor (and the same colour as the HoG too) is too much of a coincidence. See also the Hand of Glory/Mandrake/Mandrakk connection I made upthread; I know it's kinda far-fetched, but this is Morrison, so who knows? Also, I'd love to hear people's theories about what "know evil" actually means. What is the hand trying to say and why?

The freezer business predates Superman completing and being able to use the Miracle Machine--everything is collapsing in on itself, up to and including the story itself (the pace of all of FC starts fairly slowly and keeps getting faster and faster and faster and faster up to the ending), and so Superman is trying to save everyone by preserving them in much the same way that we bag-and-board-and-file superhero stories to preserve them.

I got this, but since it seems unlikely Superman actually freezed all the sentient beings on Earth (or in the universe), I don't understand why he did in the first place? If the Miracle Machine does whatever you wish it to do, couldn't Superman just have wished for everything to return to the way it was without any of this freezing business? Did Superman only freeze his friends and loved ones (that's how it looks like in FC #7) in the case the Miracle Machine wouldn't work?

I suspect the rocket that lands near the prehistoric Batman is in fact the one fired off earlier in the issue that contains all the most important artifacts of the superhero legends.

It is the same rocket, or at least Mahnke draws it the same way. But what I was really asking is, what does it mean it landed there? Surely it's no coincidence that it's in the same place Bruce Wayne is now... Was Batman's body actually put in the rocket, and then he somehow recovered during the its trip? (That wouldn't explain the different-looking utility belt though.) And why does the rocket look like the one Superman came to Earth in? I guess/hope these questions are explained when Morrison or someone else eventually brings Bruce Wayne back.

Sony Sumo is the link between Shilo Norman & the Super Young team. He's the reasons the Super young team want to join them.

and Shilo says he needs Sonny to "recruit a team"

But the Super Young Team doesn't really have much to do in the story either, does it? Nothing Shilo does in FC requires a team to support him, so it's kinda unclear what he needs one for...

I just noticed an interesting detail in Superman Beyond 3D #1 (I think Douglas may have mentioned it in his annotations): on page 8 Zillo Valla calls The Bleed "Ultramenstruum", and in The Invisibles the same term is used for "Magic Mirror", i.e. the floating, reflective ooze that comes out of Lord Fanny's orifices, and which is said to be the stuff that binds the universe together. This raises a few interesting thoughts. First of all, with this terminological trickery Morrison cleverly reclaims the authorship of the The Bleed: obviously it was first created by Warren Ellis, but by naming it "Ultramenstruum" Morrison is saying that The Bleed is actually the same stuff he'd already introduced in The Invisibles, years before Ellis. Secondly, if The Bleed and the Magic Mirror are the same stuff, that would mean that The Invisibles universe is part of the DC multiverse, possibly even one of the 52 universes. I doubt anyone's gonna follow up on that idea, but it's fun to speculate.

Now that I think of it, there's actually quite a few similarities between The Invisibles and Final Crisis, let me try to list the ones I can think of:

* Both series deal with a war against the forces of restriction and anti-imagination.
* Both series have a scene where a protagonist who's sworn never to use a gun uses one to destroy the main bad guy.
* Both series have a similar ending: in The Invisibles everyone gets what they want, even the enemy, and in Final Crisis Superman wishes the best for all of us, a happy ending.
* Boths series end with the pictures/words fading into white, which is essentially a victory of the imagination; the infinite potentialities of the blank paper triumphing over the restriction of the ink.
* And of course there's the Ultramenstruum stuff mentioned above.

Can you think of more connections/similarities?

Question: in FC#7 Superman sings away the last remnants of Darkseid's spirit, and you see it dissipate. In the last panel on that page, you see... something... blow up. A spaceship floating in the Bleed or... I'm not sure. I'm not even sure where that scene is taking place (I assumed the Fortress of Solitude was where he was building the Miracle Machine). But uh, what happened at the end of that page?

The thing that blows up is the space station where Superman and most of the heroes have been hanging in for most of this issue (except for the flashbacks). It's a composite of The Fortress of Solitude, the JLA headquarters, the Titans tower, and, er, something else I don't really recognize (the Batcave?). You can see it properly on page 5, panel 1 of FC#7. There's no explanation on how it came into being, but I guess the heros just built it. I really have no idea why it blowing up leads Superman to a dark place where Mandrakk is, though, or why Metron's chair is there when we last saw it in the villains' hideout.

Ah - I thought that piece did look like the Titan Tower OR the Watchtower or something. I see what it is now, thanks. Looking at it now I think that last battle is still taking place there, since I assume the Miracle Machine and survivor freezer has got to all be in the same location as it's blowing up.

One thing that I've always believed about Morrison, at least his DC work, is that he's writing one story, connected in more than the fact that the characters were all published (and largely owned) by one publisher. So I'm a hearty endorser of Tuomas' observations. It almost makes me want to read FINAL CRISIS again. Almost.

I wouldn't say it's all one big work, but there's a definitely major connections between Animal Man, Flex Mentallo, The Invisibles, The Filth, Seven Soldiers, and Final Crisis at least: they all deal with fictional entities breaking through the fourth wall into the "real" world, and a major them in all of them is the power of imagination and how it relates to being human (The Invisibles, 7S, and FC are quite explicitly about a conflict between the forces of imagination and anti-imagination). But with his other major works (like All-Star Superman, JLA, New X-Men, Doom Patrol, Batman), while they certainly have some thematic and narrative connections to the above mentioned stories (ASS, for example, provides the final proof of what the child universe Qwewq is, which is rather important for 7S and other interlinked stories too), it's harder to say they're all one and the same story. It's true, though, that almost all of his works contain rather obvious links to each other: Kill Your Boyfriend, WE3, and Mystery Play are the only ones I can think of that pretty much stand alone and don't connect to the larger "Morrisonverse".

"One story" might be overreaching, but it's all certainly the Morrisonverse, at least in terms of his DC work. And perhaps it's most useful to set that as the boundary.

The Watchtower blows up as its the last thing to survive in the face of the anti life equation. it has to blow up to show how superman is totally alone in the universe.

I think at the end of FC7 you see it being bombarded by the anti-life

it is Superman (& miracle machine) vs. everything else (the anti life)

and how with the miracle machine his wish for a happy ending recreates everything from nothing.

this is how far evil had got in Final Crisis. it had beaten everything except superman (cause he cant be beat, amirite?)

but by Supermans final wish, everything was recreated.

Er, I don't think Superman is alone in the universe, because the Superman Squad, the Green Lantern Corps, the angels, and the other assorted heroes show up to fight Mandrakk too. Or did Superman use the Miracle Machine to wish them there?

Actually, I think it's Nix Uotan who summons all those folks there. So Superman is definitely alone.

"definitely not alone"

I believe it was Nix Uotan who did the heavy lifting there, though there is a panel where he says something like "Signal received, Superman" after the Miracle Machine wish, I think. And he did have all the billions of people in the freezer and those other living superheroes, though Anti-Life's cosmic cloud or whatever was suffocating the station.

According to either Wolk or Uzimeri's annotations, what happens in the last scene with Nix Uotan is that the Overvoid (the white page) is swallowing up the Monitors and their universe, as there's no more need for them, and hence they'll stop feeding on the Bleed, allowing the multiverse to grow unchecked. (I suppose this is part Superman/Morrison's happy ending!) So Nix's reward is that he gets to live out his own story as a human, but does that mean the other monitors just faded out of existence? Also resurrected on earth? Does Nix Uotan remain the Judge of All Evil, or is that role now unnecessary? It his story of true love over too, ending tragically? Or is this all simply left unwritten?

(tbf I don't know how many of these questions are relevant to FC, if any)

I think the other Monitors must have been resurrected on Earth too, otherwise it's not a happy ending for all, and that's what Superman wished for. The happy ending for the Monitors is that once they have become mortals, they all have stories of their own, and they don't need to feed on the stories of the Multiverse anymore.

I guess the dead body of Batman in FC is explained in Batman and Robin #8, sort of... But I still don't quite get it: why did Darkseid think he would need a dead copy of Batman? What use did he have for that, when he was about to conquer the whole world anyway? And why did he put the clone in a Batman suit between the time the real Batman escaped and when he shot him? He didn't know Batman was coming to him, so it's not like he could've planned in advance of sending Batman back in time and leaving the clone body behind. Plus I still don't get why he sent Batman back in time instead of killing him in the first place?

But I still don't quite get it: why did Darkseid think he would need a dead copy of Batman? What use did he have for that, when he was about to conquer the whole world anyway?

WHOLLY EXTRAPOLATING HERE:

As a tool; the better to break morale, let's say. Clearly he's learned by then not to underestimate Batman (respecting his enemy enough to commission an entire army of clones from him, the better to bend and break break break the world), so, whilst the hunt for Batman continues, he can parade the bloodied corpse of this man, this...epitome of AWESOME, on a pike so as to permanently impress frowns on any remaining resistance, the ensuing river of tears being put to good use for his hydroelectric power plant...of Evil!

Plus I still don't get why he sent Batman back in time instead of killing him in the first place?

Clearly he expects him to die of smallpox within moments of arrival.

Or bcz that's how Omega Beams work? Also BOO AT TUOMAS for flinging spoilers for B&R#8 willy-nilly!

Like someone said upthread, in previous Darkseid stories we've seen the Omega Beams can both totally erase someone out of existence, and send someone to live in alternate realities/histories. Here is an example of the former:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TheomegaeffectNG11.jpg

What I don't get is why Darkseid choose to do the latter instead of just terminating Batman's existence?

Sorry about the spoiler, I thought now that B&R #9 is out too, everyone would've read #8 already.

Whoops, sorry, this is the pic I was supposed to post:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5a/TheomegaeffectNG11.jpg

uh but desaad was still around after that!

Yeah, because Darkseid later resurrected him. But the Omega Beams didn't sent Desaad to some alternate history, they completely erased him. So saying that Batman was sent to the past because "that's how Omega Beams work" doesn't sound like a good enough explanation, because in previous stories they have been shown to kill people.

From here:

Well one of the big questions that everyone is going to be asking is what exactly is the Omega Sanction. In Seven Soldiers, we saw the Omega Sanction transport Mister Miracle to a number of harsh realities until he arrives back seven days later. I could be wrong, but it also seemed like you suggested in Final Crisis #6 that Sonny Sumo might have been sent through time via the Omega Sanction. And of course, there's Bruce, who is sent all the way back to the dawn of man and the last days of Anthro when he's hit. So what is the Omega Sanction, and why does it affect people differently?

Morrison: It fires its victims through time. Originally, it sent people back to different time periods in Earth's past, as seen in 'Forever People', and then I came up with a version of it that actually reroutes the victim through a disorienting succession of different lives, each of which grows more hopeless and more horrible until your soul is dead. Kirby did the bouncing-through-time original and I made up the multiple-corrupted-lives adaptation for the "Mister Miracle" series.

It affects people differently because of the higher levels of cruelty shown by the incarnate Gods in Seven Soldiers and Final Crisis.

Yeah, I know what the Omega Effect is and what it does, but I've been trying to say is that that's not all Darkseid's beams can do. In previous Darkseid stories it's been show he can also kill people with them. (He'd be a pretty weak-ass God if all he could do is zap people into the past.) And I don't get why he doesn't do that to Batman. That quote from Morrison doesn't explain it, unless Morrison thinks the Omega Effect is the only effect the beams can have.

I know this sounds like a minor point to complain about, but I thought the way Batman averted death in FC was weak. Darkseid has no reason not to kill him. And Batman's heroic sacrifice was probably the most awesome moment in the whole story, so it was kinda undermined by the revelation that Batman didn't die after all. And I really like the idea of Dick finally taking the mantle of Batman, and in Batman & Robin Morrison has managed to make Dick a likable character, who both works as Batman and is significantly different from Bruce. I'd have no problem with it if Bruce had actually died and Dick would become Batman permanently. I know this isn't something Morrison could've actually pulled off, but I just find this whole Bruce-is-not-dead-but-in-the-past thing a weak way of getting back to status quo.

And I don't get why he doesn't do that to Batman.

Because then they couldn't do a RETURN OF BATMAN storyline.

Also, you seem to miss point of the cynical cruelty that is The Life Trap!

^^This. Erasing someone ends their torment - trapping them away from all they love and making them more and more miserable is a far greater punishment. Thus, he used the Omega Sanction vs the Omega Effect.

I still say the coolest way to bring back Batman would have him either just walk into the Batcave or show up at JLA headquarters and with no explanation maybe except needing a shave. Why is he back? Batman doesn't need the JLA or his Corps of Robins to go into time and bail him out, because he is the goddamn Batman, that's why.

Yeah, because Darkseid later resurrected him.

uh but Darkseid couldn't REsurrect someone if he had never existed! make sense, Tuomas.

I can't cite Kirby chapter & verse here, but:
Wiping someone out of existence is something Darkseid seems to do to his own minions (esp. Desaad) when he is annoyed by them. In his mind it's a petty punishment easily undone according to his whim. It reminds them of their insignificance in the stony face of Darkseid. Remember that the Anti-Life Equation, which Darkseid seeks above all else is not so much about destruction as it is about the domination of his will over everyone else.

I still say the coolest way to bring back Batman would have him either just walk into the Batcave or show up at JLA headquarters and with no explanation maybe except needing a shave. Why is he back? Batman doesn't need the JLA or his Corps of Robins to go into time and bail him out, because he is the goddamn Batman, that's why.

Batman=Kenny!

now that I've read #8:

And why did he put the clone in a Batman suit between the time the real Batman escaped and when he shot him?

Presumably he was already in the Batman suit.

Sorry about the spoiler, I thought now that B&R #9 is out too, everyone would've read #8 already.

Didn't they come out like a week apart?

Anyway also now I've read it, GRRR ARGH DC for not putting Final Crisis on the cover of the two issues of Batman that Morrison intended as part of Final Crisis (or collecting them in Final Crisis), and then being two years behind floppies in your TPB program [yeah I know there's a hardcover of RIP, but if you think I'm paying $40-50 for a hundred-some pages of Tony Daniel, you have been CRUSHED by the LIFE TRAP]

Both of them actually have "Final Crisis" on the cover! See http://www.comics.org/issue/536026/cover/4/?style=default and http://www.comics.org/issue/536027/cover/4/?style=default ...

those links don't work but argh! I guess the issues sold out in my shop then. they certainly weren't promoted as being proper parts of FC ahead of time though. or if they were, underline my TPB whinge.

And why did he put the clone in a Batman suit between the time the real Batman escaped and when he shot him?

Presumably he was already in the Batman suit.

But he wasnt! In both Last Rites and Batman & Robin #8 we clearly see that the clones were (as you'd assume) naked in their growing tubes. So somehow Darkseid must've predicted what would happen and put one of the clones in a Batman suit for Supes to find.

Also, I don't really buy the "Omega Sanction is a worse punishment than destroying Batman" explanation. Not long ago, in Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle, Darkseid had already witnessed that a strong-willed individual can escape the Omega Sanction. And he must know Batman is strong-willed enough, since he'd just escaped from an almost similar trap in Last Rites. So why, instead of completely destroying Batman, would he risk Batman escaping again, especially considering Batman had proven resourceful enough to almost kill him?

Ego. Anyone can kill Batman, but Darkseid would be the first to break him. Darkseid wasn't ever interested in killing everything; he was always about domination. He needs his enemies to know he defeated them. When Darkseid kills an enemy it is to cause greater despair in that being's allies. Using the Omega Sanction on Batman and than dressing a clone in his garb achieves both - Batman will know the despair of being unable to help his friends and all he's fought for and the other heroes think him dead. Win-win.

Darkseid had no problem killing Mister Miracle in Seven Soldiers, though, after he'd escaped the Life Trap. And unlike with Batman in FC, in SS Darkseid totally had the upper hand, he could've done anything to Mr. Miracle, but chose to just shoot him.

key - after he'd escaped the Life Trap.

If Batman comes back and challenges Darkseid we'll see what happens. The Darkseid of Seven Soldiers is chronologically after the Final Crisis Darkseid - he's still falling backwards through time. Mister Miracle's escape is in Darkseid's future, so he doesn't know the Onega Sanction is possible to defeat.

I don't think you're ever going to believe this version of Darkseid is consistent with other DC lore, despite lots and lots of explanations and proofs from other people. You don't like what Grant wrote. We get it.

The Darkseid of Seven Soldiers is chronologically after the Final Crisis Darkseid - he's still falling backwards through time. Mister Miracle's escape is in Darkseid's future, so he doesn't know the Onega Sanction is possible to defeat.

I don't think this is true. Unless I'm completely wrong, Darkseid's fall back in time is because of his "death" in Countdown to Final Crisis, not because of his actual death in FC. After Countdown he falls back in time into the "Dark Side" body he has in Seven Soldiers. In Seven Soldiers that body is still healthy, but in FC we learn that he has worn it out, which is why he needs to move into Dan Turpin's body. So the FC Darkseid is chronologically after Seven Soldiers.

I don't think you're ever going to believe this version of Darkseid is consistent with other DC lore, despite lots and lots of explanations and proofs from other people.

It's not even consistent with Morrison's previous usage of Darkseid... Anuway, my point was not so much to argue about DC lore rather than to say that the way FC dealt with Batman's much-advertised "death" felt like a cop-out. The Omega Sanction solution both undermined the dramatic effect of Batman's heroic sacrifice, and was kinda dubious from a character point of view.

But he wasnt!

idk what Last Rites is but IIRC from one read of B&R #8 Darkseid says "okeydokey, flush all those dodgy tube-Batmen down the drain except one which we'll keep around in case"

so they flush the rest and then dress up the one they decided to keep as a cunning decoy

right?

also re 'much-advertised "death"' - Morrison repeatedly said over and over in RIP publicity that he wasn't going to die

Okay, with the issue in front of me:

But he wasnt! In both Last Rites and Batman & Robin #8 we clearly see that the clones were (as you'd assume) naked in their growing tubes.

"DISPOSE OF THEM. ALL BUT ONE."

As I said.

So somehow Darkseid must've predicted what would happen and put one of the clones in a Batman suit for Supes to find.

"A PERFECT COPY OF BATMAN, DEAD?

I CAN USE THAT."

Gosh you're right T-dogg, no reason at all to infer that Darkseid would have stashed his dead Batman clone in a Batman costume to make people assume it was Batman! What WAS I thinking?

Er, my point was that the cunning decoy Batman corpse would've been kinda useless if the real Batman was alive and kicking, or if anyone saw what happened to the real Batman, so Darkseid must've somehow predicted that after Batman escaped he wouldn't join the other heroes, rather than come after him alone, which would give him the chance to send Batman into the past and replace him with the clone corpse without anyone else noticing. I guess it's possible Darkseid planned the whole thing like this, but it still seems a bit far-fetched to me.

Anyway, I just realized that Final Crisis might've provided an answer to a question that always bugged me about the Rock of Ages arc in JLA. In that story, the time-travelling heroes must stop Superman from destroying the Philosopher's Stone/Worlogog, because its destruction will lead to the dark future where Darkseid has conquered Earth. What bugs me is that the story never explains why destroying the Worlogog would lead to this future, especially since there's no obvious connection between the Worlogog and Darkseid. However, in the end of Rock of Ages, the heroes give the Worlogog to Metron, and in Final Crisis #7, Superman discovers "Element X" in Metron's chair. Element X looks similar to the Worlogog, and Superman uses it to power the Miracle Machine, so I guess it's possible the dark future in Rock of Ages would've resulted from Superman not being able to use Element X in FC. However, there's a couple of problems with this theory... First of all, since Superman has seen the Worlogog before, wouldn't he have called it that in FC #7, and not "Element X"? Secondly, Supes discovers Element X only after he has (supposedly) sang Darkseid to death, so I'm still not sure exactly how the future of Rock of Ages would've happened, since Element X isn't used to kill Darkseid.

And speaking of unexplained things in Rock of Ages, can someone explain to me why, in the future Earth of that story, Orion destroys the universe after Darkseid had been defeated? That one bugs me even more than the Worlogog thing. Orion says he does it so that the universe will be free of "Darkseid's taint", but by that point the heroes had already defeated Darkseid and he was dying. So what was the point of destroying the universe?

Darkseid didn't have to predict exactly that Batman would come after him alone after escaping from something not shown in the comic, he could keep his Batman clonepse around IN CASE an opportunity presented itself!

I remain glad that I did not read anything Final Crisis related.

You shouldn't be! It's not a bad series or anything, just a bit of a mess, even by Morisson's standards. But there are enough of cool and awesome moments to make up for the plot incoherence. And the Superman Beyond 3-D mini is simply one of the best things Morrison has ever written. IMO it's even better (and more fun) encapsulation of the major themes in his work than Flex Mentallo, and in half the space.