The dreaded Avant-Garde thread

Wow! That's a really good question. I guess I never thought about that before. I'll have to go digging as well to think about the def. of narrative.

Warhol's Empire is indeed a day in the life of a bulding.

Another question I forgot to include before: how to you make an assessment of an AG film? What criteria (if any) can be used to conclude "this film sucks" or "this film rocks!". Or, are such statemtns pointless and without any validity given the nature of the films themselves?

1) Definition of Narrative Cinema

The most basic would be a film that attempts to tell a fictional story through fictional characters and monologue/dialogue. At least this is how the delineation is made between "narrative" and "documentary" filmmaking. of course, those lines have vague boundaries, and the two often mix into each other, and this is where I think the interesting discussion on this topic will come into play. can a film created purely from paint without recognizable images(i.e. brakhage's "black ice")constitute a narrative?

Also, when we talk about avant-garde film, we ought to look as it as a major grouping under which there are dozens (if not hundreds) of sub-categories. experimental film is one of the most rabidly individualistic forms of filmmaking (although most avant-gardists have a acute knowledge of, and constant working awareness of, the history and traditions of avant-garde film), so to place all films under one banner is impossible.

if i had to make a major categorization dividing the world of the avant-garde, I would make this one:

1) Narrative Avant-Garde
2) Formalist/Structuralist Avant-Garde

in my opinion, avant-garde/experimental film can most certainly be narrative. I find Jem Cohen's "lost book found" to be one such work, even some of brakhage's autobiographical films.

"What makes a film avant-garde? Is it strictly, as some have claimed, a film made in opposition to the mainstream? Must it include experimental techniques? Can we come up with our own taxonomy?"

Here's the big one. I really don't have the strength to carry this one to any real fruition right now, but i plan to post a lot more on this. Here are some factors that I think contribute (but don't in any way completely define) avant-garde film:

1) Stylistic Unorthodoxy--using equipment (Fisher Price Pixelvision cameras for example), visual effects, creation of the visual material directly on the medium (painting/scratching/baking/hand-processing film, deliberately stretching/demagnatizing video.

2) Narrative Unorthodoxy--playing with the words to create different types of meanings. dada and situationist filmmakers used a re-arrangement of narrative and semantics to interesting effect. "last year at marienbad" is a good example, as are the films of Peter Rose. The narrative always has a direct effect on the temporal elements WITHIN the film, like plays on time and jumping back and forth without alerting the audience. (This is something that is becoming increasingly popular in narrative cinema--films like Memento and Irreversible pop into mind--but originated in the avant-garde)

3) Temporal Unorthodoxy--the length of a film/video is not confined to the hollywood standard of 90-180 minutes, but is much more free to the artist's inclination, either being much shorter (brakhage's "eye myth is seven seconds long) or much longer (warhol's "empire")

4) Financial Unorthodoxy--most avant-garde cinema is made outside of studio financing and is usually created with the filmmaker's private funds, or grants or commissions from museums, galleries, etc. Avant-garde film also tend to have a single maker, instead of using crews of people (although this is not always the case).

5) Presentational Unorthodoxy--most avant-garde film are not meant for large audiences and large theaters. they are better suited for small groups or completely isolated, individual viewing (like warhol's "viewing booths" discussed in another thread. whereas hollywood narrative cinema confines itself to a large, rectangular screen on differing aspect ratios, avant-garde films often have different size/shaped screens, multiple screens, etc.

I leave a lot of leeway in what I consider avant-garde. If it's something that I've never seen anything remotely like before, whether it's in a short experimental piece or a studio-produced narrative, I consider it avant-garde because it's brave and uncomprimising, which is really the only criteria i need. I would put certainly put Guy Maddin, Bela Tarr, David Lynch, Harmony Korine into the category of avant-garde directors.

The big argument comes, as Buddha pointed out, in where to draw the line...

Great point. While it is very hard to assess the quality of, yes, let's stick with calling it "AG" film (although I hate the way that this style of filmmaking is segregated through terminology from the rest in cinema), it is not impossible. I've seen a LOT of bad AG movies, and they're usually pretty evident right away--they're borrowing or directly stealing from overused themes/styles, they seem contrived and stilted, as if they deliberately trying to be vague in order to seem "artsy", etc. or they are using "style for style's sake"--taking an otherwise normal film and just throwing in some weird camera angle or effects that have no real motivation.

I think the best AG films are the ones that are made as personal films, not with any audience in mind. you can really see it in brakhage's work--he's just not concerned with what the audience thinks. he's given them a door into a new world of his creation (sometimes into his own life and psyche), and it is up to the viewer to decide whether he/she walks through that door or not. I appreciate such boldness and unwillingnes to comprimise or pander.

one thing i forgot to mention in my criteria was SONIC UNORTHODOXY--avant-garde films usually make sound an incredibly important element, and it's used in ways that contrast greatly with "narrative" films.

i can see already that semantics are going to be a problem here...

Because they are free from the confines of approval from directors, demand for large audiences & big box office, etc., AG directors usually have the freedom to take risks with their filmmaking & can allow fate to have a hand in the artistic process.

As for assessing AG (or experimental) films, I often tend to hold back as I just don't feel I'm well versed enough.

When I took Jonathan Rosenbaum's Avant Garde Film course at UCSB, I was a simple freshman who had little experience with AG film. He showed us two films the first day -- Leslie Thornton's Adynata and Michael Snow's Wavelength. Both blew me away, but I admit to not "getting" either one at all. Yet he worked us through both films, taught us a bit of the vocabulary of these filmmakers and then - BLAMO - I saw the brilliance of both. (I still have great admiration for both films.)

I've always been interested in AG films that make use of other people's work. One that always intrigued me was Ken Jacobs' The Doctor's Dream which is a simple re-editing of a bad 1950's drama that in its re-editing reveals a subtext not seen when viewed as intended.

Right now the music that thrills me the most is the stuff that's created from sampling. (Quick aside - EVERYBODY should grab a copy of Danger Mouse's The Grey Album> which is an (illegal) combination of Jay-Z's Black Album layered over samples made up exclusively from The Beatles' White Album. Available on-line, though the RIAA is trying to kill it. See Grey Day)

People like DJ Shadow are creating mini-masterpieces made up of nothing more than samples. I'd love to see more of the same in film -- Jay - are there any filmmakers you know of doing this sort of thing?

check out www.illegal-art.org. naomi uman's film is a great example. found footage and re-edited existing footage style filmmaking is a huge part of the avant-garde right now, especially amongst the feminists and post-moderns. i saw a couple of great pieces that fit this mold at the "regarding beauty" exhibition at the Hirshorn in Washington D.C. back in 2000--Dara Birnbaum's "Technology/Transformation Wonder Woman" (which loops a three-second clip of Linda Carter in "Wonder Woman" for several minutes to show the sexist elements at work in television programs), Douglas Gordon's "Predictable Incident in Unfamiliar Surroundings" (which, simply by slowing down a kiss scene from Star Trek, reveals the aggression and violence behind the act), and Jason Horowitz' "The Body Song" (which simply plays Michael Jackson's music video for "The Earth Song" backwords to create a world completely in opposition to the original, and instead focuses more on Jackson's legend & persona).

A lot of VJ (video jockeys) are into the video sampling thing--do a google search to learn more about them.

I'm also a big fan of that style musically. DJ Shadow is one of my favs, and I'm really into The Books lately. If you haven't heard "the lemon of pink" yet, i'd strongly recommend it. Negativland is another group that's a bit more political with their sampling uses--see the illegal-art.org site for more on them.

and, oh, what the hell, while i'm at it:

www.billboardliberation.com

i worked with the founder, "jack napier" on my thesis documentary. they're an interesting group doing some important "living art".

i'm ashamed to say I've never had to opportunity to see Michael Snow's "Wavelength" even thought it's one of the most famous experimental works.

http://www.eai.org/eai/artist.jsp?artistID=430

It looks like most of her work is done with appropriated existing footage.

I'm a huge Negativland fan as well. Thanks for the tip about The Books.

There's a mailing list, Rumori (I think that's what it's called) that deals with the political/legal aspects of "fair use" -- I dropped off a while ago due to lack of time.

At the NYFF some years back there was a short by a feminist filmmaker that consisted solely of shots of women in danger, or scared, from 1950's Hollywood films. Pretty powerful short - I still think of it (wish I could remember the director's name.)

however, my only argument to that is avant-garde filmmaking is so diverse that it's hard to encapsulate any "rules" or guidelines to be broken, because they're seldom proscribed. much of what happens in the avant-garde exists underground or anonymously. i'm not saying there aren't "popularized" elements that add to a common aesthetic at certain periods of time, but the avant-garde film world is much less stagnant & likely to jump onto stylistic/content bandwagons because something is popular. And most (yet not all) creators of avant-garde film have no interest in a nihilistic "destroy convention for the sake of destroying convention". It's an aspect, but i think it has more to do with attempting to create something that is intensely personal in a ways, and not just a desire to do something "different." although there's nothing wrong in my mind with making a conscious attempt to create something completely original that changes the way someone views their world.

**jay puts his feet up, twiddles his thumbs & whistles a tune**

in opposition to this, then, are films that value a perpetual present tense - a dream logic in which expectation is ellided and underminded. much of brakhage's work might fall into this category, as could "un chien andalou" or deren's "meshes of the afternoon". i guess i would argue that warhol's "empire" is (in this way) similar to these films as well - it shows time unfolding but reists the establishment of expectation that's inherent in narrative film.

obviously avant-garde film can't be conveniently split into this either/or dichotomy (there are many other ways in which "empire" seems much more akin to "wavelength" then to anything by deren or brakhage) but i've found michelson's thoughts on these issues to be useful.

considering how strongly brakhage abhorred warhol's studies in minimalism this might well be the case. however, i'm surprised by how often i use the names "brakhage" and "warhol" in the same sentence, so there obviously are connections in their work.

great analysis, spectatorbird. i think it's an interesting approach to the interrelation between narrative and time.

it's such a sad thing that cinematic storytelling and general western perspectives of "the narrative" are so narrowly defined--for thousand of years, mankind told stories without words. somehow, most people forgot how to do that. i don't want to sound pretentious, but maybe there is some kind of link between AG storytelling and ancient methods of storytelling like cave paintings, etc. there are just so many ways to communicate, and i think commercial film only focuses on the simplest ways sometimes (not that speech is simple, but, you know what i mean...)

One interesting difference among some of these musicians, however, is whether sampling is employed with (what I'll call) visible or invisible seams. Because the Books use obviously pre-recorded vocal snippets amidst organic instruments, the seams are plainly visible. With DJ Shadow and the Avalanches on the other hand, unless they're using recognizable samples (like Bjork or Madonna, respectively), you might not necessarily know those sounds came from other records. (Maybe he played that beat himself?)

Which raises an interesting question: Is it possible to ever created an all-sample film and have the seams not be visible? What might this look like?

I currently have a book on order from Amazon Canada called "Recycled Images: The Art and Politics" which is all about found footage filmmaking. When I get it I'll give my "book report".

Some other books on experimental filmmaking that I can recommend are:

"A History of Experimental Film and Video" by A.L. Rees
"Visionary Film" by P. Adams Sitney (the bible of AG film)
"Essential Brakhage: Selected Writings on Filmmaking" by Stan Brakhage (available at www.mcphersonco.com--wonderful stuff).

also, i think I've mentioned it before, but anyone seriously interested in AG/Experimental should join the Frameworks listserv.

all of those titles are great. i would add:

"allegories of cinema" by david e. james (out of print but well worth tracking down)

"the film culture reader" ed. by sitney

http://www.hi-beam.net/fw/index.html

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0410/carr.php

a mess indeed, and an important lesson for any artist.

Oh, and among other things, caught Stan van der Beek's wonderful short Science Friction. Very obviously one of the biggest influences on Terry Gilliam's Monty Python animation.

"Decasia" was just released on DVD this year, and an art museum in San Francisco released several of Bruce Conner's films on DVD (including the wonderful "Looking For Mushrooms").

For newer experimental work, try www.peripheralproduce.com and www.microcinema.com. Experimental filmmakers (and former professor of your's truly) sells his works on DVD, including his recent feature length experimental work "Rubicon", on his website--www.berserker-rage.com. Caveh Zahedi (if you consider him "experimental", which I do) also sells his films on DVD & VHS at www.cavehzahedi.com.

Outside of that, you can get many great works by experimental directors like Maya Deren, Stan Brakhage, Len Lye, etc. for www.facets.org. www.re-voir.com is a fantastic site for buying experimental VHS. Although their PAL collection is much larger, you can still buy films by Jonas Mekas, Stan Vanderbeek, Brakhage, Michael Sno, Paul Sharits, Len Lye, Ken Jacobs, etc. in NTSC format. One of my favorites is www.vdb.org, the Video Data Bank. They are the exclusive sellers of the early works of Jem Cohen, one of my favorite filmmakers. Don't be daunted by the high "rental" prices--they are for institutions and public screenings. While it is still pricey, VDB will sell almost any of their titles for $30 on VHS for home personal use (to keep, not a rental).

Hope this helps. If anyone knows of any other places I haven't mentioned, I would love to know about them. It's a shame that experimental/avant-garde cinema is so difficult to come by, especially for those of use who don't live in a big city.

There is a film that attempted this, but I can't remember the name. They have it at my local video store, so I'll find out the next time I'm there.

http://www.mysticfire.com/index.html?cart=110533036712182185

(as an aside, EVERYONE should see the grandmother. NOW.)

and i heard un chien andalou and l'age d'or finally got the dvd treatment recently and if that's true (not o

if that's true (not bothering to check), i'd imagine kino's responsible for that, too.

Sup3r H@ppy Fun has the Lynch shorts (and Eraserhead) available for ~1/4 of the Lynch.com price if you don't mind DVD-R.

so who's seen VENOM AND ETERNITY?

http://anthologyfilmarchives.org/film_screenings/calendar?view=list&month=07&year=2015#showing-44511