I recall the summit meeting with Marty Augustine being kinda shadowy...
Among Gould's most essential dialogue is "This is where I say ... then you say..."
Anyone seen the trailer for the Sundance noir where Joseph Gordon-Levitt is the dick -- in HIGH SCHOOL?
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 21:21 (eighteen years ago) link
The greatest of noir heroes in a novel about the greatest of noir heroes crumbling and becoming disillusioned and irrelevant by the best noir writer (this is debateable btw) who was fumbling at the time with his own direction/pretensions. And anyway whatever the source material, Altman completely pulled it away from that anyway.
"It's still a story about a man pitted against society, out of touch with the vulgarity of his time, trying to do the right thing in an ugly world, which is one of the major noir themes."
But I see only a little of the first (certainly Gould's Marlowe is no more pitted against it than say any of the counter-culture figures of the moment), none of the second (he seems totally of and comfortable with his time), and gah-wha? I guess but on the final one that's pretty much the theme of like "life" ya know and not real exclusive to noir
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 21:26 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 21:33 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 21:35 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 21:43 (eighteen years ago) link
But I do have a question: who's a better noir writer? James Cain is the only other real candidate, right? And I love Cain, so if that's yr choice I can get behind that.
― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 22:04 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 22:40 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 22:49 (eighteen years ago) link
The Driver
― Chairman Doinel (Charles McCain), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 22:56 (eighteen years ago) link
White Heat is on TCM tonight in teh wee hours.
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Thursday, 16 February 2006 00:34 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Thursday, 16 February 2006 02:54 (eighteen years ago) link
Robert Mitchum C/D, S/D
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Thursday, 16 February 2006 03:00 (eighteen years ago) link
I haven't seen The Big Sleep for some reason, but can anyone tell me if my favorite line made it into the movie? - "Mr. Cobb was my escort," she said. "Such a nice escort, Mr. Cobb. So attentive. You should see him sober. I should see him sober. Somebody should him sober. I mean, just for the record. So it could become a part of history, that brief flashing moment, soon buried in time, but never forgotten--when Larry Cobb was sober."
― Erick Dampier is better than Shaq (miloaukerman), Thursday, 16 February 2006 06:39 (eighteen years ago) link
and The Empire Strikes Back. (and she was a she)
Only Chandler book I've read is The Big Sleep; vastly prefer the film. Without the lighting and the actors blowing smoke in each others' face, on the page so much hardboiled fiction comes across as macho bullshit.
Scarlet Street is a remake of Renoir's 1931 La Chienne, which obv has the same plot, but in style is a sort of absurdist tragicomedy.
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 16 February 2006 15:43 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Thursday, 16 February 2006 16:54 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 16 February 2006 16:57 (eighteen years ago) link
― J. Lamphere (WatchMeJumpStart), Thursday, 16 February 2006 16:57 (eighteen years ago) link
Ha! I might have done the same back in the day. I might also have confused C.L. Moore with the title character in Cordwainer Smith's "The Ballad Of Lost C'Mell."
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:25 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:26 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:32 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:33 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Friday, 17 February 2006 05:36 (eighteen years ago) link
My top 5 Noir authors:1. Thompson2. Cain3. Willeford4. Chandler (props for inventing the genre could make him #1)5. Hammet
― steve ketchup, Sunday, 19 February 2006 17:22 (eighteen years ago) link
― J. Lamphere (WatchMeJumpStart), Monday, 20 February 2006 06:10 (eighteen years ago) link
Interesting how, to me, I think of Orson as being one of the personifications of noir, yet he isn't, really. Except that he used expressionism in everything he did (in b&w, at least). The only proper 'genre' picture he did is Lady from Shanghai -- which I'd mention as a recommendation as, even butchered as it is and with a horrible music score, is spectacular, premier league luncacy.
Some argument over Touch of Evil. Obviously not a noir, really, but close on a lot of points. (Ditto Third Man: not a hint of urban America in sight, though in every other sense a clear contender.)
I also like Double Indemnity a lot. I prefer it to Postman, because the two leads are, well, let's be honest, kinda UGLY compared to the beautiful Garfield and Turner, which makes it more interesting. The script is also better. Postman is kinda patchy and badly structured... it might be considered a poor film if not for the great lead performances raising the bar so high.
― _chrissie (chrissie1068), Monday, 20 February 2006 17:11 (eighteen years ago) link
Fred and Barbara both bring the right kind of sweaty cheapness to their parts, Garfield and Turner in Postman aren't able to be as unlikeable as Cain characters need to be.
I guess Welles is just too much of himself to be included in a genre, sort of like you can't call Jimi Hendrix a bluesman even though he was a very good one. Orson with his big budgets and top-level crews was able to explore the imagery of noir more deeply than the "get it done in two weeks" directors ever had an opportunity to. Even some of Jane Eyre (which, like 3rd Man, he sort of co-directed just by being around) has noir in it.
What I like so much about Cain (& Thompson -"the dime store dostoyevsky" ) is their ability to get inside semi-repulsive characters -no Marlowe-style heroes in their stories- and allow one to understand (and even sympathize with) them, to follow the inner logic of their self-directed doom. To me that sort of cynicism (the kind that rules Detour) is what anchors the genre and what limits my rating of Chandler a bit. Just as authors, without the appended "noir" I agree that "Chandler is just straight out the best writer" of the lot.
― steve ketchup, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 00:09 (eighteen years ago) link
I've only read The Big Sleep of Chandler's, too. I liked it without necessarily totally loving it or feeling much for the characters. It's an exercise in style, really -- presumably, all of his work is? I think, due to truncation and change, the film makes even less sense. I could be contentious and argue that the book does almost make sense. :) It overdoes the atmospherics -- the crime equivalent of Lovecraft's fixation on ambience -- but no doubt it captures a lot of things brilliantly. I don't rate the film high on the noir scale, though. Sans Bogie and Bacall, it'd be a pretty minor effort.
Oh, I just picked up the DVD of Scarlet Street. It's an Elstree budget release, so no doubt from a worn theatrical print, but I don't remember ever seeing it and am looking forward to checking it out...
― _chrissie (chrissie1068), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 18:06 (eighteen years ago) link
― Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 18:21 (eighteen years ago) link
Oh no way. HOWARD HAWKS! It would have been fantastic whoever was in it.
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 19:00 (eighteen years ago) link
I didn't assume there was any sex with the bookseller, either. Maybe I missed something. :-/ I thought she kind of offered herself, but he was too preoccupied to take her up -- albeit with some regret? Oh no, I didn't miss an obvious visual metaphor anywhere, did I?!
Anyway, the film is lots of fun, don't get me wrong. But to me, not quite up there with Double Indemnity, Maltese Falcon, even Lady from Shanghai. (NTS: must watch that one again soon.)
What I'm looking forward to massively is this fab box-set of Mr. Arkadin from Criterion. (Um, Euro-noir?)
― _chrissie (chrissie1068), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 19:38 (eighteen years ago) link
Jeez, he's not even credited with directing that, and the degree to which he did is uncertain.
btw the high school noir, Brick, is being released next month. Richard Roundtree is in it.
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 14:38 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 14:45 (eighteen years ago) link
― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 14:46 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 14:51 (eighteen years ago) link
i'm borrowing the lady in the lake from the library to remind myself if I feel like championing it or not
― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 14:53 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 15:06 (eighteen years ago) link
anyway, in high school, when my friend kip and i used to hang out at his brother's condo and watch movies all night, dark victory came on; kip was bored and went to sleep, but i stayed up and watched the whole thing, because it was AWESOME
― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 15:18 (eighteen years ago) link
I just read on ILM that the picture in the newspaper of Lauren Bacall's dad is of the director, Delmer Daves.
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 15:20 (eighteen years ago) link
― _chrissie (chrissie1068), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 22:55 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 28 February 2006 16:41 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 28 February 2006 16:53 (eighteen years ago) link
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 28 February 2006 17:26 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 28 February 2006 17:29 (eighteen years ago) link
― Simply Redd (Ken L), Tuesday, 28 February 2006 17:45 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 28 February 2006 17:46 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 28 February 2006 17:47 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Sherlock (Ken L), Tuesday, 28 February 2006 20:25 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Monday, 6 March 2006 05:17 (eighteen years ago) link
― C0L1N B... (C0L1N B...), Monday, 6 March 2006 11:51 (eighteen years ago) link
why chandler had to telegram hawks when they were in the same city is beyond me, but i fuckin love that story
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 19 February 2010 05:45 (fourteen years ago) link
I thought Chandler's line was actually "who cares?" which I think is funnier.
― Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Friday, 19 February 2010 14:10 (fourteen years ago) link
Isn't there some companion story of Hawks saying something to the effect that making that movie taught him that the plot didn't really have to make sense?
― the clones of tldr funkenstein (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 19 February 2010 14:13 (fourteen years ago) link
the studio thought the original was boring and made him do reshoots. the result capitalized on the bogart-bacall relationship but made less sense.
hawks continued to make films whose scripts were well-crafted by conventional standards.
later people began to interview this great maestro, this incomparable innovator of cinematic form, and he made up some stories that made him sound cool but don't really accord with the facts.
― sharter the unstoppable ilx machine (history mayne), Friday, 19 February 2010 14:22 (fourteen years ago) link
I'll buy that.
― the clones of tldr funkenstein (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 19 February 2010 14:43 (fourteen years ago) link
the original cut is on the US DVD and it gives an explanation for the chauffeur's death.
― abanana, Saturday, 20 February 2010 15:22 (fourteen years ago) link
Anyone seen Nightmare Alley? I have seen most of the classics save, Detour and this. Think I like Kiss Me Deadly or Gun Crazy best.
― Hinklepicker, Sunday, 28 February 2010 05:15 (fourteen years ago) link
Spent last week at the Noir City festival - always tremendous, especially with Eddie Muller's commentary.
― Jaq, Sunday, 28 February 2010 05:28 (fourteen years ago) link
nightmare alley is good, tyrone power trying to ditch the pretty boy rep
― velko, Sunday, 28 February 2010 05:34 (fourteen years ago) link
AFI Silver has just announced its 2019 Noir City DC lineup: https://silver.afi.com/Browsing/EventsAndExperiences/EventDetails/0000000010
Not sure yet which screenings I plan to attend, but a couple of them will be free co-presentations with the National Gallery of Art. And last year I liked Muller's intro to both versions of The Killers.
― Anne Hedonia (j.lu), Friday, 13 September 2019 17:05 (four years ago) link