How much music theory do you know? How much of it winds up in your songwriting?

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I'm thinking mostly of chord theory, I guess. I've been studying a bit lately -- trying to get beyond trad chord progressions (partly because I'm still obsessed with Max Tundra, and he plays these terrific shifting triads over everything). It's been really helpful with songwriting and programming, and has probably improved my guitar playing more than anything in a long time -- but it's going to be a long-ass time before I can think this way on the fly, and even the rudiments of jazz construction are totally daunting, totally beyond me. So:

How well do you know this stuff? Can you sit down without an instrument and think about and/or "hear" chord structures? If so, how much of your songwriting comes from theory ideas (i.e. "hmm, it'd be interesting to do diminished substitutions on the iv") versus just playing stuff out? What do you think is a good way to get more conversant with this stuff? (It seems like it'd be easier to learn to conceptualize this stuff on a piano keyboard than on guitar.) Who knows this stuff from the jazz perspective -- and exactly how many years does it take to accomplish that? (I keep sitting down with like a Guaraldi tune, a printout of all the changes, and a guitar, and I still haven't found a way in to really see what's happening.)

Part of what interests me is how people who know this stuff inside and out actually use it -- like how much you think in these terms when writing songs, and where in particular it winds being useful.

― nabisco (nabisco), Saturday, 26 November 2005 00:35 (eighteen years ago) link

(Incidentally one of the things that's really helped with this is the Chordspace VST plugin -- a push-button chart that sets up by key and outputs MIDI for any chord option.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Saturday, 26 November 2005 00:48 (eighteen years ago) link

I studied a fair amount - went to a performing arts high school and got some basic theory there, did some summer music programs, and a year and a half of conservatory before I switched. I couldn't tell you anything about symphonic forms or anything, but I know pretty well how various types of chords are structured and I can "hear" them without an instrument and without much effort (I mean if you asked me to sing the notes of a maj7add9 or a 7flat9 chord I could). I did, in fact, study jazz, and in a way I think it's a much more chord-based way of thinking than classical (my ear-training teacher always joked that he'd play some totally awful dissonance and a jazz major would say "That's a d-flat minor major 7 add 9 augmented 12 chord" or something.

― Abbadabba Berman (Hurting), Saturday, 26 November 2005 02:22 (eighteen years ago) link

But to answer the question, I think the way it helps is not so much knowing what's "right" (there really isn't such a thing), but what would "work" (or wouldn't) or what would have a certain "effect" -- and it gives you many more options to achieve those effects. It's important to remember that at root, theory is not a set of "rules" so much as a set of explanations of why certain things sound the way they do, and how to achieve those sounds. I do sometimes find myself hearing something the songwriter plays in our band and thinking it doesn't work, and then realizing it's because blah blah note clashes with blah blah chord - but that's always after the fact. The rule is true because it doesn't work, not the other way around.

― Abbadabba Berman (Hurting), Saturday, 26 November 2005 02:25 (eighteen years ago) link

I know no music theory, and so none of it ends up in my songwriting.

― n/a (Nick A.), Saturday, 26 November 2005 02:32 (eighteen years ago) link

Charlie Parker didn't know any music theory either, but a lot of it ended up in his writing.

― Abbadabba Berman (Hurting), Saturday, 26 November 2005 02:36 (eighteen years ago) link

Now now, he damn well knew it, whether he talked about it in technical terms or not (and I've never heard that he didn't).

― Jordan (Jordan), Saturday, 26 November 2005 03:35 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm not sure where that's coming from either.

― k/l (Ken L), Saturday, 26 November 2005 03:38 (eighteen years ago) link

Well, there's theory in there no matter what you do; one of the most fun parts of my little crash course has been learning what some of my own songs are doing, in formal terms. Every now and then I learn that something I wrote really did qualify as vaguely sophisticated. Then I go read commentary on some jazz stuff and get all astounded by the idea that anyone could not only conceptualize this stuff on the fly, but actually tweak it, on purpose and in ways that work really well, and then of course I feel like a total cretinous turd again.

― nabisco (nabisco), Saturday, 26 November 2005 04:48 (eighteen years ago) link

i've never taken a class in theory, but have read a lot of begining theory in books/net and have become fairly proficient. I've always seen is as all about the intervals, and I've learned it on guitar, not keyboard. so i'm pretty good at visualizing it on the fretboard and hearing it even when I'm away from the instrument, which is fun because it means I can be "playing music" away from home so to speak.

i couldn't tell you offhand though exactly which notes are in a given chord without thinking about it for a minute. the way it ends up in my songwriting is when I'm trying to do something weird, like more from one chord to another clashing chord, then trying to make a melody that fits over them to make the structure "work" for my ears.

i've got a ton of respect for the jazz approach. kind of incredible what they do.

― AaronK (AaronK), Saturday, 26 November 2005 14:18 (eighteen years ago) link

I was jazz trained (as a trumpet player), but I hardly ever think of it explicitly when writing for guitar (which is usually how I write). I don't have perfect pitch by any stretch, but I can hear intervals, and I can hear chords the way they are voiced on guitar more than any other instrument, so my familiarity with guitar has definitely eclipsed my generic music theory knowledge somewhat.

I'm very biased since I can barely play the keyboard with both hands at the same time, but I've always thought that intervals and chord structures were easier to visualize on a guitar. There's no equivalent of the black keys, so no matter where you move a shape on the guitar, you've always got the same relationship between chords except for the open strings...

― martin m. (mushrush), Saturday, 26 November 2005 19:05 (eighteen years ago) link

I know a certain amount "in my head" rather than "in my ear". But the nice moments are when you come up with something and get totally bored with how major/minor it is and think, how can I dirty this up a bit? Playing with voicings and leading tones helps.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Saturday, 26 November 2005 21:24 (eighteen years ago) link

xposts - Well, there's what may be an urban legend that Parker didn't write music, at least in the early days, and had to get Diz to write stuff out for him. It's probably an exaggeration, but the point is that many musicians do things because they sound right, not because they are formally correct, but those things then happen to be formally correct anyways.

― Abbadabba Berman (Hurting), Sunday, 27 November 2005 01:50 (eighteen years ago) link

It's easy to imagine someone knowing this stuff really well on his own instrument but not necessarily being able to notate it.

― nabiscothingy, Sunday, 27 November 2005 04:51 (eighteen years ago) link

Anyway, I'm very insecure about my music theory. I took some basic classes in college, I can read, and I've picked up lots of random shit and ear training from hanging out/playing with great jazz musicians for the past six or seven years. However, I play drums, so I can't practice this shit in the normal course of playing my instrument (and I haven't had the discipline to sit down and specifically work on it every day).

Whenever I try to write or figure something out it's a lot of trial and error on the keyboard. My shit's basic, and there's a lot of stuff that I should know but don't.

― Jordan (Jordan), Sunday, 27 November 2005 06:26 (eighteen years ago) link

I studied theory for 2 years in college before switching majors. I can't say for sure how much of it I use consciously vs. subconsciously. I guess it's like learning a foreign langauge. I do use it consciously when arranging, though. And it's useful when dealing with multiple instruments and trying to correct "problem" notes.

― darin (darin), Monday, 28 November 2005 20:05 (eighteen years ago) link

I keep having the dumbest issue with "problem" notes lately. Like, I'll sit down and plot out a harmony bit on guitar, a series of two-note intervals; it'll sound just fine. Then I'll program the same thing on a sequencer, using two different synths. And then suddenly some of the notes are bum -- because even though each of the intervals goes together, they're not properly written for two parts, and it doesn't necessarily make sense for an individual line to go from one note to the next. And this means loads of going back over the sequencer patterns and figuring out where, say, the two lines are playing the notes backward, and need to be swapped, or where the guitar harmony just doesn't work as a split and needs to be reconfigured. It's madness, I tell you -- I'm going to have to start writing everything on a keyboard.

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 28 November 2005 20:55 (eighteen years ago) link

I love theory and study it all the time, but I don't think it's essential to being a good musician. When I'm playing I more tend to notice it than (consciously) implement it. It helps me remember some cool (mistakes?) I did and sometimes gets me through my own dullness -like if I get in rut where everything starts to sound the same, I'll push some theoretical idea I don't understand that well on myself and it'll end up opening my ears a bit.

"There is no theory, you only have to listen."
-Claude Debussy

― steve ketchup, Thursday, 1 December 2005 16:32 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, I think there are a lot of "principles" (rather than "rules") that can help you figure out why something you hear sounds good or bad and how to get out of ruts. Like learning a thing or two about chord voicings and harmonic motion helps you break out of that "same chord shape, different position" or "random chord shape until I find one that sounds good" box.

― Abbadabba Berman (Hurting), Friday, 2 December 2005 17:55 (eighteen years ago) link

one month passes...

I desperately want to learn theory. I have managed, somehow, to play saxophone for nearly 15 years and not pick up a LICK of theory (no music classes whatsoever). I'm trying now to learn, on the piano, just to be conversant/rudimentally able to solo (I've always just winged it).

Any texts you could recommend?

also, Hurting: I think it's a bit easier to undervalue theory once you've already learned it. Like, "you can't break the rules until you know them." Etc.

― gbx (skowly), Wednesday, 4 January 2006 22:56 (eighteen years ago) link

They're more practical than theory-heavy, but Rikki Rooksby's books have served me well... [here]

― Confounded (Confounded), Monday, 9 January 2006 22:42 (eighteen years ago) link

Spelled that wrong: Rikky Rooksby

― Confounded (Confounded), Monday, 9 January 2006 22:43 (eighteen years ago) link

software is good way to drill the stuff into your head as well, this stuff gave me a good edge on memorizing chords, scales etc. That's old software though, someone else probably knows a more modern app.

― Pablo (Pablo A), Monday, 9 January 2006 23:13 (eighteen years ago) link

Ha! I was wondering who was going to be the first to admit to owning a Rikki Rooksby book.

― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 10 January 2006 00:08 (eighteen years ago) link

Um, I have one of those books around here somewhere too. Heheheh.

― martin m. (mushrush), Tuesday, 10 January 2006 02:05 (eighteen years ago) link

Hey, I got no pride issues. Rikky's a fine time!

― Confounded (Confounded), Tuesday, 10 January 2006 18:24 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah, Rikky Rooksby is good. this one is also good:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/063400638X/qid=1136927760/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0254997-0415904?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

― AaronK (AaronK), Tuesday, 10 January 2006 21:16 (eighteen years ago) link

Actually, I've got a few of his books myself, and yeah, he's got a good approach.

― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 10 January 2006 22:42 (eighteen years ago) link

The guitar is actually a great tool for learing music theory, I think, because intervals work in such a systematic way (one fret = half step, 2 = whole, etc.)

I think George Van Eps (jazz guy) has a good book on harmonic motion on the guitar. I don't know what it's called but a teacher used to xerox stuff for me. Helps you break out of that "move the chord shape from here to there" box.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 01:24 (eighteen years ago) link

the guitar hurts my hands.

― Pablo (Pablo A), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 02:20 (eighteen years ago) link

The guitar makes my hands bleed sometimes, but that is fucken ROCK.

― martin m. (mushrush), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 02:29 (eighteen years ago) link

Some of the Amazon reviews seem to think ol' Rikky was pulling his punches in his Riffs book.

― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Friday, 20 January 2006 03:10 (eighteen years ago) link

I think one of the best ways to improve your songwriting is to learn to think in terms of harmony and voice leading instead of "chords." Don't learn "new chords" learn how chords work.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Saturday, 21 January 2006 01:12 (eighteen years ago) link

three months pass...

[spam]

― ***, Thursday, 27 April 2006 20:52 (eighteen years ago) link

spam'd

― pablo (Pablo A), Friday, 28 April 2006 03:48 (eighteen years ago) link

i can't read music. i know scales.

sometimes i download modal scales off the internet just to break my fingers out of old habits...but i'm terrible w/theory.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 28 April 2006 17:08 (eighteen years ago) link

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