Rolling Music Theory Thread

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The key change is down to Rachmaninoff not Eric Carmen, right?

Soundtracked by an ecojazz mixtape (Tom D.), Saturday, 14 August 2021 17:30 (three years ago) link

Think it is down to Celine's producer or arranger if I heard correctly.

No Particular Place to POLL (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 14 August 2021 17:39 (three years ago) link

David Foster's arrangement, if I understand that video correctly.

Halfway there but for you, Saturday, 14 August 2021 17:39 (three years ago) link

Classic producer's trick of pushing the key a bit higher to make the singer work and add emotional impact by having the audience hear a bit of strain, although often done over the whole song and not just a key change. Believe HDH did this with Levi Stubbs, for example.

No Particular Place to POLL (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 14 August 2021 17:41 (three years ago) link

take away chord scales from jazz education and replace them with repertoire https://t.co/irMEj1yCGY

— Ethan Iverson (@ethan_iverson) August 23, 2021

Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Monday, 23 August 2021 19:35 (three years ago) link

^thoughts?

Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Monday, 23 August 2021 19:35 (three years ago) link

Agree? Mostly.

Hitsville Ukase (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 August 2021 19:38 (three years ago) link

CST kind of like a cheat sheet approach. At least one younger guy who is doing pretty well for himself now once refused to answer my question in that line and said “I don’t like to think of music that way.”

Hitsville Ukase (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 August 2021 19:40 (three years ago) link

I mean I have used that cheat sheet but I don’t feel good about it, as Jon Stewart said about a certain crossword, although that has since upped its game.

Hitsville Ukase (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 August 2021 19:59 (three years ago) link

Wonder how many will participate in this discussion?

Hitsville Ukase (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 August 2021 20:00 (three years ago) link

Wait, I see we almost talked about the same thing two yrs ago here, also bc of Iverson.

Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Monday, 23 August 2021 20:52 (three years ago) link

Ha, was it the thing he wrote about Jeff Goldblum and the Dorian Mode?

Hitsville Ukase (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 August 2021 21:08 (three years ago) link

Yeah, I think you linked it.

Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Monday, 23 August 2021 21:09 (three years ago) link

I really dislike grandstanding statements like these... it tries to codify something that cannot be so easily codified. Learning jazz theory is useful to those who have facility for it and find an application for it in their practice. Others may not find they have a facility for it, and may question the validity of it being taught. Others may have a facility for it, but not find an application for it, and may question the validity of it being taught. I have met too many spectacular musicians who process musical information in jazz theory terms, and generate amazing music while applying jazz theory concepts to say that it is "less important" or "more important" than learning repertoire.

When presented with arguments like these, or the "Western music theory is racist" one from a few months back, my mind tends to get all bifurcated. Of course I agree. Of course I also disagree. I feel like I could provide a wealth of points and counterpoints that prove and disprove either side of such an argument. In my subconscious, though, there's another voice that is screaming: why are we making grandstanding statements like these? Why have I made similar statements, myself, in the past? I feel as if these statements express far more about the individual who is making them, and their private points of concern, and psychological projection, and their own personal frustrations, than they actually do about larger truths about music education and/or music appreciation

I don’t have time to scroll up right now, but I’m sure whatever I type now will be similar to what I typed then. Like a few hours ago I heard “Hit the Road Jack” and thought “I wonder if I should mention The Andalusian Cadence?” but I figured we already must have done it.

Hitsville Ukase (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 24 August 2021 01:20 (three years ago) link

Okay, I will reply to fgti and say that CST is not all of or the only Jazz Theory.

Hitsville Ukase (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 24 August 2021 01:21 (three years ago) link

One critique of CST is that it divorces the scale choice from harmonic function, it’s simply one scale per chord type. Okay, maybe there is a little more to it but that’s the way it is usually taken. It doesn’t get into the nuances of the different extensions and chromaticisms (chromatics?) that can be used, one size fits all.

Hitsville Ukase (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 24 August 2021 01:27 (three years ago) link

I keep thinking about this and why I mostly agree with Iverson but don’t want to post into the void.

Hitsville Ukase (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 27 August 2021 22:56 (three years ago) link

… and Lee Konitz too, as far as I know

Hitsville Ukase (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 27 August 2021 22:59 (three years ago) link

one month passes...

Was banging out "Keep on Loving You" by REO Speedwagon on piano/voice/guitar tonight and realized it does the same kind of thing as "Man on the Moon" - seems like an F Lydian thing with the chords moving F-G-Am-G over an F pedal point through and a melody line that seems circumscribed by an F arpeggio, and even stays in that space during the pre-chorus with F-G-F-G-Am-G until we finally get C-F-G in the chorus and it's confirmed that F and G are I and IV and the F at the start of the melody is heard as an accented dissonance that resolves down to E.

Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 6 October 2021 01:25 (three years ago) link

That was a bit mangled. In the verse, it seems like F Lydian with the chords moving F-G-Am-F over an F pedal point and a melody circumscribed by the F arpeggio and even stays in that space in the pre-chorus. When we get to the chorus, we finally get a C-F-G progression and it's confirmed F and G were IV and V. The F that starts the melody in the chorus is heard as an accented neighbour to E.

Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 6 October 2021 03:51 (three years ago) link

The introduction of "Sara" by Fleetwood Mac uses exactly the same chord progression in F Lydian, except it resolves to F major for most of the song (then back to F Lydian for the bridges).

Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 6 October 2021 14:01 (three years ago) link

F-G-Am-F

ugh, F-G-Am-G

Interesting re "Sara"; will revisit that

Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 6 October 2021 15:15 (three years ago) link

two weeks pass...

The serious replies to this are lol:

I’m sorry but the UK rhythmic value names make no sense to me pic.twitter.com/Fm5SEIA3Iv

— Robert 🎃 Komaniecki (@Komaniecki_R) October 20, 2021

Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 20 October 2021 15:58 (three years ago) link

three weeks pass...

Tempting:
https://www.7dmedia.com/products/kingcrimsondiscipline

Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Thursday, 11 November 2021 22:29 (two years ago) link

So I never broke down the solo to "Don't Fear the Reaper" (as classic as it is) before but just realized how cool the modulation is. The song is in a modal A minor (Aeolian) but we get that G# sounding like a leading note right under the fermata A minor chord before the solo begins. The G# (Ab) and C get reinterpreted as the two upper voices of an F minor chord in the first arpeggio (F-Ab-C) which then moves to a G7/F (F-G-B) arpeggio, iv and V in the chromatic mediant key of C minor, which becomes the key for the solo (a functional C minor, where the leading note is generally raised).

treat the gelignite tenderly for me (Sund4r), Sunday, 21 November 2021 15:49 (two years ago) link

Good points. Then there's something uncanny about the return to the A minor riff from the G.
Another nice touch in this song is the single E maj chord in the verse (or prechorus), the V of A harmonic minor.

Halfway there but for you, Sunday, 21 November 2021 16:17 (two years ago) link

I always get lost metrically (pvmic) during the solo break but still have never gotten around to pinning it down.

Sterl of the Quarter (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 21 November 2021 17:31 (two years ago) link

Good points. Then there's something uncanny about the return to the A minor riff from the G.

Yeah, it ends on a sustained G (the dominant in C minor), which is the pedal point (on m^7) in the A minor riff.

Is the chord under "the sun" in the pre-chorus E major or E5? I don't hear a third (G#) there and Dharma sings a B in the melody - so it still seems like a modal Aeolian cadence to me. Even if I were to strum full triads there, I think Em would sound more natural than E.

treat the gelignite tenderly for me (Sund4r), Sunday, 21 November 2021 18:04 (two years ago) link

I think it all lines up in 4/4, or at least adds up to multiples of 4, if you count the arpeggios as eighth notes starting on 1, which means the cymbals enter on 1 after four bars and the full band entering on 2 after another four bars + one beat. Pretty tricky because the arpeggio pattern is a three-note pattern accented in 4/4 so the barlines and chord changes always land in different spots in the pattern and it actually runs for a total of 33 eighth notes (eight bars + one beat). Also the drums are a bit unpredictable during the ensemble playing under the lead guitar but I think the bassist mostly keeps the quarter-note pulse.

treat the gelignite tenderly for me (Sund4r), Sunday, 21 November 2021 19:01 (two years ago) link

*full band enters on 2

treat the gelignite tenderly for me (Sund4r), Sunday, 21 November 2021 19:02 (two years ago) link

Thanks, makes sense.

This is too long to watch now but seems like it might be useful for some:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44t2KJQUh3Y

Sterl of the Quarter (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 22 November 2021 22:35 (two years ago) link

Lots of comments on the order of "I have been trying to understand this stuff for decades with success until I finally saw your explanation. Thanks!"

Sterl of the Quarter (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 22 November 2021 22:37 (two years ago) link

two weeks pass...

"Yesterday" by the Beatles and "My Love" by Wings start with the same progression (a fourth apart) of four chords, but because both songs are in F, the harmonic relationship to the respective songs is different:

Yesterday: F -- Em7 -- A7 -- Dm I -- ii of D Dorian -- V of vi -- vi

My Love: B♭maj7 -- Am7 -- D7 -- Gm7 IV -- iii -- V of ii -- ii

(ignoring inversions)

Halfway there but for you, Friday, 10 December 2021 16:38 (two years ago) link

Posting here before possibly posting on the Jazz Thread, written by an old friend of ours: https://www.thenation.com/article/culture/barry-harris-obit/

Santa’s Got a Brand New Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 16 December 2021 16:51 (two years ago) link

He refers to “Harris’s ‘bebop scale’” but I was under the impression that Barry Harris himself hated that term, despite almost everyone else using it.

Santa’s Got a Brand New Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 16 December 2021 23:46 (two years ago) link

three weeks pass...

Hi dere! Hey Sund4r, are you sure on that G# in the fermata chord on "Reaper?" I hear a G natural in the guitar that's panned a little right (which is kinda cool because it makes it momentarily a seventh resonance on the tonic minor chord).

timellison, Thursday, 6 January 2022 18:51 (two years ago) link

That F minor arpeggio coming out of the blue feels a little Twilight Zone-ish (although I think actual Twilight Zone riff has a tritone).

timellison, Thursday, 6 January 2022 18:57 (two years ago) link

The Blackstar thread mentioned Bowie's cover of the Walker Brothers' "Nite Flights". There's something very interesting about these chord changes. Both versions of the song have an intro, one verse and chorus that repeats to fade. Though the melody includes some unusual notes, I would describe the verse as A major and the chorus as D Mixolydian:

VERSE: A C#m F#m C#m I iii vi iii in A major
CHORUS: D C D Am I VII I v in D Mixolydian

Aside from performing the song a tone lower, Bowie changes the chord where the song transitions from verse to chorus ("has hit the bloodlite"): that is, instead of the second iii chord, he uses a ♭III chord (B♭ in his verse key of G).
It's a very different effect; with the Walker Brothers, the C chord coming in three bars into the chorus ("on nite flights") has a dizzying, shifting effect on the harmony; Bowie introducing this chord change at the end of the verse punctuates the start of the chorus, but it's like he shows his hand too soon. He's revealing the harmony of the chorus early, it can't have the same effect as the earlier version.

Halfway there but for you, Friday, 7 January 2022 00:34 (two years ago) link

three weeks pass...

Are there any good explanations anywhere on the net of modern broadway composition style and where it came from? I just watched Encanto with my kids, and aside from "We Don't Talk About Bruno," which is catchy, I feel like there's this weird modern trend of sort of random-sounding diatonic melodies and chord progressions with a lot of roots and fifths and awkward melodic movement without good voice leading.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 31 January 2022 20:38 (two years ago) link

Ugh

Tapioca Tumbril (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2022 20:39 (two years ago) link

Actually I guess there were a couple other songs that were ok - Welcome to the Family Madrigal didn't really do what I'm talking about, and neither did Dos Oruguitas, but here's a good example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKKrfr4To14

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 31 January 2022 20:40 (two years ago) link

The melody sounds like someone just randomly noodling around in a scale.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 31 January 2022 20:41 (two years ago) link

There's something especially awful about it when the chords go from 4 to 5 and the melody goes 5 - 3 - 2 -3, or 5 -3 - 2 -1, it's like nails on a chalkboard for me.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 31 January 2022 20:42 (two years ago) link

This one is not as awkward, but it still sounds like it was spit out by a diatonic melody generator:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ9pHBEUWPo

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 31 January 2022 20:45 (two years ago) link

The first example sounds like an instance where the lyrics were written in advance of the melody. The composer was tasked with having to make something "poppy" and "hooky" but also keep the same rhythm of a recitative. It reminded me most of the "verses" on uh "Hakuna Matata" where a very-hooky chorus had to be cut with narrative-narrative-narrative and Elton John just kinda wrote some notes down and hoped it'd work. I don't think it's anything new, there are similar kinda "the music suffers at this point because we got a lot of words to get through" moments in a lot of pre-1980 musicals. Good recit is challenging, I would imagine? the part of "Guys And Dolls" I admire the most compositionally isn't any hook at all but a recit: "I've imagined every bit of him / from his strong moral fibre / to the wisdom in his head / to the homey aroma of his pipe..." "You have wished yourself a Scarsdale Galahad / the breakfast-eating Brooks Brothers type..." "Yes! and I will meet him when the time is ripe." (Is it "right"? I forget I'm just quoting from memory.)

So yeah it doesn't sound to me like any modern tendency so much as the collision of lyricist: "here are a lot of words" and producer: "get it done by the weekend and make it hooky"

That song from The Greatest Showman sounds so uncannily like another song I can't place. Is it Adele? That song sounds to me that it wasn't written cold but was written as a copy of another song. Lyricist: "here are some words", producer: "make it sounds like Adele", composer submits, producer: "make it sound more like Adele", composer submits, producer: "have you even fucking listened to Adele? I want it to sound like ADELE", composer writes something that exactly follows the tempo and chord progression of an Adele song but sounds obtuse on its own, producer: "good enough"

flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 31 January 2022 22:00 (two years ago) link

So yeah in short the former just sounds like big-budget recit written with the pressure of time and producer expectation

And the latter just sounds like the composer was working with a temp score and being pressured by producers to cut closer and closer to the source

flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 31 January 2022 22:03 (two years ago) link

I don't hear what you're hearing on "Waiting On A Miracle" though, it sounds about as well-written as your average 6/8 Kate Bush song, that is to say, it's not bad? Moving to the III at the end of each eight bar phrase (after swaying between IV and V for the rest of the phrase) is definitely "not exactly great", and the modulation at 1:45 is a real clunker, but it doesn't really bother me. Totally serviceable Disney song.

Upon hearing that song from "The Greatest Showman" my boyfriend popped around the corner to say that it was his parents favourite musical ever, that they couldn't stop talking about how amazing the music is. Something I always tell myself is that the producers are almost always right, that when they are pressuring the composer to dumb something down they DO in fact have the best interests of the shareholders at heart

flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 31 January 2022 22:15 (two years ago) link

Maybe more appropriate for the "Homemade Jokes" thread, but I just typed:

"I call my man Neapolitan because he wasn't my first choice, but he's a close second"

flamboyant goon tie included, Tuesday, 1 February 2022 21:54 (two years ago) link

Oh wow, I must have accidentally deleted my bookmark for this thread. So many messages I've missed. Going to catch up!

I was going to say something about how it's interesting that Ed Sheeran's "Shivers" is built from the exact same chord progression (Bm-G-D-A) as "Despacito" and does a lot similarly but the melodic movement in the Sheeran song seems more clearly centred on an Aeolian B minor tonality while "Despacito" seems a little ambiguous between D major and (modal) B minor but it seems v possible to hear D as a tonic.

The sensual shock (Sund4r), Monday, 14 February 2022 20:37 (two years ago) link


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