Mohammed Assaf, Arab Idol sensation from Gaza

I was thinking about waiting to see if he wins first, but he's already kind of huge thanks to Arab Idol. His style is mostly very traditional, from what I've heard of the Arab Idol performances (though there is a Back Street Boys cover I am ignoring), but he's excellent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S099Q0S2B8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-a3zagLXIY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDeVvVu3LnE

what's with all the white handkerchiefs? and what's he singing about? also, did the judge in the 3rd video say "BIG YES"?

this guy is pretty good. he's also very handsome.

(i like how in the 2nd one there's the judge w/ the closely-cropped bear who is impassive and occasionally shakes his head, channeling simon cowell)

I don't know about the handkerchiefs. I don't think I've ever seen that before, actually. A couple of the judges are quite famous but I didn't recognize them (not too surprising considering I am mostly not into Arab pop stars from recent decades. I don't think any of this is original material. More background here, which is where I found out about it (I don't think I knew there was an Arab Idol before, or if so, only vaguely):

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/05/mohammed-sensation-competition.html

Maybe I should be listening to Arab Idol clips in general. Seem to be some pretty high level singers involved.

what is that website? a lot of the comments are full of little asides implicitly comparing israel to the third reich and such....

Really, full of little asides implicity comparing Israel to the Third Reich? I would have to take those comparisons on a case by case basis. Personally I probably wouldn't make those type of comparisons. Would rather deal with it on its own terms. As for Mondoweiss--

Mondoweiss is a news website devoted to covering American foreign policy in the Middle East, chiefly from a progressive Jewish perspective.

It has four principal aims:

To publish important developments touching on Israel/Palestine, the American Jewish community and the shifting debate over US foreign policy in a timely fashion.
To publish a diversity of voices to promote dialogue on these important issues.
To foster the movement for greater fairness and justice for Palestinians in American foreign policy.
To offer alternatives to pro-Zionist ideology as a basis for American Jewish identity.

This blog is co-edited by Philip Weiss and Adam Horowitz. Weiss is 56 and lives in New York state. Horowitz is 39 and lives in Atlanta.

We maintain this blog because of 9/11, Iraq, Gaza, the Nakba, the struggling people of Israel and Palestine, and our Jewish background.

This site aims to build a diverse community, with posts from many authors. The views of these authors do not necessarily represent the views of Horowitz and Weiss.

Moderation policy, applied with varying degrees of flexibility:

http://mondoweiss.net/policy

(Was not planning on heading this thread in this particular direction, but it may be inevitable.)

no, i wasn't either, and we shouldn't continue down this path, i was just a little taken aback by some of the weird comments on that website you linked to and was trying to figure out its perspective.

mondo weiss isn't bad but the comments it attracts tend to cross the line a bit for me

I'm not sure what the deadline is for this. Syrian singer Abdel-Karim Hamdane was sent home, and he's got a pretty impressive voice as well. He may have more on Assaf in terms of the sheer physical power of his voice (which seems to be something Syrians excel in--for instance Sabah Fakhri's Guiness Records related to endurance as a singer):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYQo5Kmu4wQ

I would kind of hope that some of the people who have enjoyed the Arab music put out by Sublime Frequencies would at least be curious enough to click on this thread.

Mohammed Assaf performed a cover of what I guess must be Saudi singer Mohammed Abdu's most famous song (probably a good move in terms of the politics of garnering votes, since Gulf music tends to be peripheral to the mainstream of Arab music dominated by Egypt, and Lebanon and Syria):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFysx9uxFd8

There was also this Cheb Khaled performance which I think leaves a lot to be desired (but I am not that big a fan of rai), though everyone seemed to love it. There's also a salsa version of this that I'm tired of hearing, which might also be coloring my opinion. Anyway, FWIW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmXotPxoGiw

Also, I hadn't realized Ahlam is also one of the judges. So these are some pretty big stars. I mean, the fact that I even know who they are says something. There's some sort of ongoing conflict between Ahlam and Ragheb Alama.

I guess this means youtube is going to be giving me Muslim Singles ads again.

Cool

A medley's of Diana Haddad's songs kicked off the night.
During the show, Diana sang a couple of her popular songs, but also sang a song exclusively for Arab Idol for the very first time, a single entitled "Talet El A3yad".

Diana Haddad

Diana also joined the contestants in a salute to the famous Samira Tawfiq.
She sang a medley of Samira's most famous songs ... oldies that we grew up listening to.

The boys gave a joint performance, a trio ... Ahmad sang Ya Habibti Ya Masr, Mohammad Assaf sang a tailored "Mawwal" especially for Arab Idol, which Ziad continued ... and then the three did a little "3ala Dal3ona".

The girls gave a trio performance of the oldie "Mistaniyak". Oldies are the best after all!

As for what the contestants chose to sing, it was like this ...
Farah did Ya bada3 el ward.
Mohammad did Sawt el hida, which was simply lovely.
Salma sang one of Ahlam's songs.
Perwaz ventured into the realm of Fairuz, which is a very brave choice. Hassan liked her performance and her voice, but when we remember it's a Fairuz song, there's a BUT ...
Ragheb said that she performed the song with her own style and her own spirit.
Ziad sang Mamnounak.
Ahmad did Matsibnish Ana Wahdi.

http://www.waleg.com/archives/027945.html

I want to hear that Samira Tawfiq tribute. I still am trying to figure out the identity of one her songs from a cassette that died.

I finally heard some of the performances of the singer from Iraqi Kurdistan, but I was a little disappointed. Good, but didn't seem on the same level as the other contestants I've been checking out.

Good stuff.
Really liked the Abdel-Karim Hamdane.
Assaf too.
Khaled is not looking so cheb nowadays....
Thanks for posting these, good luck with the muslim singles....

Young Assaf performing a debka song:

http://tinyurl.com/l2aanak

More debka, from Arab Idol performance this weekend:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCjeLyqlBI0

Music starts at 0:38:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQO8LfiWk2o

Some discussion of what's going on, here:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/05/28/1212077/-Mohammed-Assaf-from-Palestine-the-next-winner-of-Arab-Idol#

(This is another song I already knew though I wouldn't have been able to say who has performed it or what the title is.)

But I'm really getting all this by way of my morning Mondoweiss again.

And another familiar song, although I'm not sure who I've heard sing this, off hand:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb67niPb3tg

Tonight's performance (and I think this is the last?):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0zS3G3zJH4

The other two contestants' final performances:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3KMxW8mnRY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtXbikRl-Hc

Oh, I know that last song.

Does it turn into a medley? Sounds like it.

Anyhow, I think Mohammed Assaf is pretty much a lock at this point.

It looks like Nancy Ajram totally cracks up about the guy who jumps on stage and starts dancing with Mohammed Assaf.

He is the winner. I'm so happy!

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/06/201362219549114855.html

The judges responses to his original a cappella audition:

Ajram: Enough....enough.....don't tire your self more

Ahlam: Take pity on us man

Ragheb: See Habibi, honestly, I hear a lot of people, and the next day I listen to some more and I forget the former, you are one of these voices that I will remember, because you have the capability of controlling your voice, the high pitch, the low pitch, romantic range...

Ahlam: Did anybody tell you that your voice is like Abd Al Halim's voice?

Hassan: Good job, I am with Ragheb, you are among the voices that we will remember down the road.

Ragheb: You have 4 Yes

Ahlam: Big Big yes

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/06/remember-palestine-mohammed.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3v-F9uofZU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh6Vhrr5nS8

The second to the last one posted (here) is a little more on the stiff side of Arab music for me. This performance is mind-boggling though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYUDFx_TCak

It seriously sounds like someone says "I'm in love with that" at the end of that last video.

Nancy Ajram takes a deep breath before he starts singing.

Just watched the last clip. It's pretty good, you're right.

Good write-up here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ahmed-shihabeldin/mohammed-assaf-my-palestinian-idol_b_3488577.html

Mohammed Assaf performed a cover of what I guess must be Saudi singer Mohammed Abdu's most famous song

One thing I didn't say: his phrasing here is very different than Mohammed Abdou's in any Abdou renderings I've heard. He does seem to personalize it. And that eighth video is a performance of a song by the judged seated to the far right, Ragheb Alama, who said that Assaf made him hear new things in his own song.

I think there's going to be a certain amount of inevitable skepticism and overemphasis on interpreting the enthusiasm for Assaf as derived from his being Palestinian, but I swear, he really is exceptional as a singer. As a singer he has some/all the qualities to be expected in the idealize Arab male singer (especially from an Egyptian/Lebanese -centric model). Not to mention that as a perfomer he has: IT.

I like that Ragheb Alama told him "Your voice is measured by a golden balance," with its echoes of a Greek classical thread running through Arab and western cultures.

Even made CNN:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lbQu7BSp08

The first acknowledgement I've seen from the New York Times is mostly about Hamas, naturally. That's an angle worth covering, but it would be nice to hear more about other parts of the picture:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/26/world/middleeast/arab-idol-winner-returns-to-palestine-to-cheers-and-unease.html?_r=0

Who is this house Arab?

Replacement links for videos that have since become unavailable (because from unofficial sources).

The performance of the Ragheb Alama song (Alama is the judge we see on the far right):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf9T1oCA0Hk

From final or penultimate night performances, I think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj-pyJF6ckU

Despite the fact that this is only its second year on the air, the series finale of Arab Idol received 100 million viewers, according to estimates by broadcaster MBC. . .

http://www.aawsat.net/2013/07/article55308009

He is so good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4BFglb4cqY

Not essential viewing.

Performing in Bethlehem:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRxJlR-rCzk

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/08/netanyahu-complains-to-kerry-of-incitement-and-cites-mohammed-assafs-lyrics.html

First official post- Arab Idol win song. The video is a little corny. The song is just okay to my ears, so far. His performance is great as usual:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlnbYqhLtwI

In Chicago! I just found out he was on tour in North America.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIy4NgNm114#t=145

has assaf gotten any attention outside of the [pro-]palestinian community? i'd assume so if he's doing a north american tour - but maybe he's primarily playing campuses + activist events?

The advance writeup for his DC show that I think just happened this past Sunday

The American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee (ADC) is excited to present our third annual cultural event entitled "Turaath: Celebrating Arab Culture in America." This year's event is organized by ADC's Women's Initiative and will feature the 2013 Arab Idol winners; acclaimed Palestinian vocalist Mohammad Assaf, Syrian songstress Farah Youssef, and Lebanese vocalist Ziad Khoury. ADC is the largest Arab American grassroots organization in the United States. Since its founding in 1980, ADC has been committed to protecting civil rights, promoting mutual understanding, and preserving the Arab American cultural heritage. The ADC Women’s Initiative unites influential Arab American women with ADC’s mission to empower and celebrate the Arab American community.

x-post

I haven't been paying attention actually, which is why I hadn't heard about this. I think it would have to be the broader Arab community though (not that that doesn't overlap significantly with pro-Palestinian), judging by the size of the crowds involved. How many Palestinians are there in the U.S.? Maybe more than I'd think. (They are actually pretty visible here in Albuquerque even, though the numbers are small. More a matter of "more than you'd expect" than absolutely large numbers.)

If the California dates weren't so soon, I might have considered trying to arrange something.

http://electronicintifada.net/content/mohammed-assaf-champion-people-or-powerful/12643

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/11/mohammed-invades-beatles.html

re US tour

http://www.thenational.ae/arts-culture/music/mohammed-assaf-and-ludacris-setting-the-beach-alight

re UAE appearance

http://hotarabicmusic.blogspot.com/2013/11/backstage-with-arab-idol-mohammad-assaf.html

in dc

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/19/arts/music/an-arab-idol-wows-his-fans-in-america.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20131220&_r=0

An interesting profile piece

on tour in US still.

“When I was younger, I used to go to ’NSync concerts, and people would throw their bras on stage,” said Marwa Abed, a 24-year-old Palestinian-American who is a teacher’s aide. “To see this similar popular act with the kaffiyeh, which has so much symbolism in the Palestinian community, for those people to be throwing the kaffiyehs on stage and for him to be wearing them, it felt like there wasn’t a stage and an audience, it felt so fluid.”

Mr. Assaf was recently invited to perform with the Colombian pop singer Shakira at the soccer World Cup next year in Brazil.
....

Mr. Assaf has a clean-cut, retro quality that recalls classic performers of decades past. Part of his appeal lies in a focus on traditional Arabic music, which has lost traction among younger Arabs in favor of Western pop.

The invitation to Arab Idol winner Mohammed Assaf to sing at the opening of the 2014 FIFA World Cup in Brazil this summer has been rescinded.

Flocked by fans and admirers at a press conference in Gaza City on Tuesday, Assaf said he was prevented from performing at the World Cup 2014 opening ceremony by “states and other actors ‘unknown’.” Assaf also said that Shakira, also scheduled to perform at the opening ceremony, will protest FIFA’s decision by refusing to perform as well.

News publication Emirates 24/7 , of Dubai Media Inc., the official media organization of the government of Dubai, is reporting Shakira, is boycotting the ceremony.

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/02/mohammed-banned-performing.html

Unfortunately Mohammed Assaf was not able to perform in Gaza during his recent visit. Although concerts were planned and approved by Hamas’ Ministry of Culture their Ministry of Interior did not approve the plan.

Nice work Hamas!

And thanks for nothing Fifa too.

I have to admit, there are a lot of uncertainties in this whole story. Not seeing a lot of confirmation.

No official statements from Shakira. Granted, she might not want to go so far as to make a public statement about this, but it's all a bit hazy right now. Some interesting comments over on Mondoweiss from Arabic speaking posters, which raise some questions about how definite it had been that Assaf was going to perform (and even suggest Hamas may have had a hand in scuttling the possibility of this performance).

There is this:

"I'm a global citizen but my heart beats for Palestine,'' said [FIFA President] Blatter, adding he would invite Mohammed Assaf, the Palestinian singer who won the 'Arab Idol' reality show, to sing at the World Cup in Brazil next year.

http://www.aljazeera.com/sport/football/2013/07/20137712164414162.html

More recently:

"We are not aware of the Arab Idol. Details concerning the official ceremony are still being defined," a FIFA representative said to PolicyMic in response to his comments.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/82217/palestinian-arab-idol-gets-booted-from-world-cup-and-shakira-s-response-was-perfect

An unnamed FIFA representative vs. the named FIFA president. Curious.

Dear Annie,

FIFA can confirm that, as per the invitation of the FIFA President, Palestinian singer Mohammed Assaf has been invited to perform at the official opening ceremony of the 2014 FIFA Congress on 10 June in Sao Paulo as part of the FIFA World Cup events and that FIFA’s commitment to invite Mr Assaf to perform in Brazil has always been firm.

Kind regards,

Sascha Rhyner

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/02/mohammed-invitation-ceremony.html

So I guess we won't know what's going to happen until it happens, and we may never really know what went on behind the scenes (as with so many more important matters).

Oops, put my first tag in the wrong place.

maybe he'll sing to FIFA about how Safed + Haifa are a part of beautiful Palestine

Maybe he doesn't find colonialism and ethnic cleansing charming when conducted by Jews?

sure, i mean jews have only lived in Safed continuously for thousands of years

but keep on pretending that the palestinian movement has nothing to do w/ completing the arabic ethnic cleansing of jews from the middle east

You seriously believe that? Yeshiva U. taught you well. Isn't that where you went?

Yes, Jews had been living continuously in Palestine before the modern state of Israel was created, but they had been doing so as a minority for some time. Haifa and Safad were ethnically cleansed by Zionist Jews.

Let's be enemies.

First of all, everyone on ilx knows that you're a paranoid, conspiratorial anti-semite who clothes his hatred of Jews into rote anti-Zionist rhetoric, so you're not fooling anyone. But plz, explain more about how the Jews control Finance + the Media. Maybe there's even a group of elders who orchestrate things.

Secondly, Jews have lived historically in "Palestine" and the rest of the Middle East since before the Muslim conquest of the Middle East and North Africa and the Palestinian movement (created through the historical dispossession of Arabic control of the country now known as Israel in the event of the Nakba) represents a particular defeat of Islamic hegemony in the region by a centuries long oppressed minority group. It's a fucking shame for you that the Jews don't lie down like the Kurds, Christians and other ethnic groups that the Islamic invasion has conquered. I'm sure Isaac Luria would be shocked to learn that Safad is not a Jewish city. I don't know if you're just misinformed, or you're actually a fan of radical Islam. I do know that the only reason you, and Mondoweiss types, like Assaf is because of his implicit promotion of complete Arabic subjugation of all people who live in the Middle East, as evidenced by his "Palestinizing" of historically inarguable Jewish cities + homes. His sings so sweetly about how he'd love to dispossess all Jews in every city in Israel. I mean, Arabs basically demolished + murdered the historically Jewish community of Hebron. If you can get rid of all the Jews of Hebron, why not Safad + Tiberias too?

The really sad news for the Palestinian movement is that you can't build longterm peoplehood around the failure of Arabic colonialism in a small territorial area. If they ever do succeed in getting a country in the West Bank, I imagine it'll last a decade at most before the same upheavals that rock every other Arabic colonization in the Middle East occur there as well.

Wouldn't it be appropriate to have a Palestinian sing at the last World Cup before Israel is expelled from FIFA?

<blockquote>The official issue is a long-standing one, the Israeli military’s harsh detentions and arbitrary travel restrictions on Palestinian football players, which have often kept the Palestinian national team from competing with its full roster, or hosting games in the occupied West Bank.

The much higher profile incident which is bringing this to a head however, came earlier this month, when Israeli troops deliberately crippled a pair of Palestinian football players, 19-year-old Jawhar Nasser Jawhar and 17-year-old Adam Halabiya, shooting them both multiple times in both feet to ensure they would never play again.</blockquote>

http://news.antiwar.com/2014/03/31/fifa-threatens-to-expel-israel-over-treatment-of-palestinians/

We should never forget, however, that Israel has a humanitarian side:

http://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2013-11-15/israel-to-return-palestinian-body-parts/

According to an exclusive report on Monday from a website called Inside World Football, FIFA has given Israel until the summer to improve travel and playing conditions for Palestinian soccer players, with the threat of expulsion as a member of soccer’s world governing body hanging ominously overhead.

Yup, sounds legit.

http://i62.tinypic.com/20u5uvk.png

so i think the question is, rude, who are your hasbara masters? which ziofascist organization is paying you to discredit the pro-palestinian ilx movement and spread this propaganda?

On a slightly less serious note-

http://hotarabicmusic.blogspot.com/2014/02/mohammed-assaf-in-trouble-for-israeli.html

I don't know what the lyrics are but I hope they would upset people like Mordy & his Anarchists for the Wall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCOfMdXNSzs#aid=P9KpsnVFhEA

The nightmare of the Zionist project will be brought to an end. Justice will prevail, and the hypocrisy of many Jewish liberals/progressives/leftists will not stop it. (I'm trying to say "Jewish" as often as is appropriate since when I say "Zionist" certain people act like I mean Jewish anyway.)

And to finish I thought I incompletely expressed earlier, on another thread: if it didn't involved Jews, the liberal/progressive side of the political spectrum would long ago have come out in favor of BDS. But with Jews involved, it's different thanks to the following (not necessarily in rank order):

*Gentile guilt.
*Widespread philo-Semitism (particularly among liberals)
*Current Evangelical/Reformed Christian beliefs related to the Jews and Israel
*Jewish statistical overrepresentation (relative to their proportion of the general population) in liberal/left leadership
*Jewish statistical overrepresentation in the media (in the U.S. at the very least)

No other ethnic/religious group has anything like this set of advantages, so I don't think it would be possible for them to get away with the sort of colonialist ethnocracy that is Israel, without being near universally considered a pariah (a la Apartheid South Africa) amongst liberals and leftists.

I'm not sticking around to argue and probably not coming back to this thread today, if anyone is interested.

And I don't think that when you get to the essentials of the situation there is much to argue about. It's time for action.

nobody is going to believe you are anything other than an a deluded antisemite after you posted a list of shitty books by obviously if not declaredly antisemitic authors

people like you only damage by association those sincere opponents of israeli state policy who aren't merely paranoiac jew baiters, racists and wastemen

thread

Surprised that's as bad as it got. Your momma is an anti-semite, nackchivan.

I never got to post Mohammed Assaf's anthem from the latest round of Jewish state slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQo1QNj5AIE

I certainly don't feel like the one who should be on the defensive.

The Assaf album is out today, but it seems surprisingly well-hidden. The usual sites where I have bought Arabic music in the past don't have it, and I couldn't find it on itunes, though it's supposed to be there. I looked kind of quickly however.

I originally expected to get back to this by the end of the week of my last post, but then I kept putting it off, and as time went on, a vacation from ILX seemed like a good idea. I haven't done very well keeping up with music without it. (Lurked on the DJ Q thread a little and posted one video to the salsa thread, but that was about it for exceptions.)

I did hear some samples from the new album it sounds overladen with overproduced romantic tunes, so maybe opposite what I've seen of his live shows (with lots of nationalist debka).

(I'm trying to say "Jewish" as often as is appropriate since when I say "Zionist" certain people act like I mean Jewish anyway.)

Rudy, I'm Jewish and I happen to agree with much of what you say. But you manage to say it in a way that makes me want to disagree with you. That is not an achievement.

I remember that you are Jewish. Your comment is a good way of putting it. Maybe I've been in a phase of overreacting but I'm pretty pissed off at the rules people attempt to around the discussion of Zionism or the discussion of Jewish power more broadly.

This past weekend I read a pamphlet that is going to be discussed in the book club of the Philadelphia chapter of JVP, which says it is oppressive to Jews to claim, for example, that Zionist influences were the driving force for the U.S. invasion of Iraq. I think that claim is, at the very least, plausible. But the leftist Jewish author of this pamphlet, who apparently is sometimes involved in the I-P issue as an activist, was seriously claiming that such speech was an example of the oppression of Jews. Not: "Let's stick to the topic and not get into the side issue of the Iraq war" (which would still bother me, but at least I'd comprehend it), but: this is an example of oppression of Jews.

My attitude is that the gloves are off, discursively anyway. I don't claim it's the best rhetorical strategy. I am probably too emotionally governed to be rhetorically smart in any consistent way. I am trying to provoke at times, but I'm not intentionally saying anything I don't really think.

One reason I am being as blunt as I am may be that I don't have a guilty conscience in relation to Jews. Jews have been a pretty un-exotic, matter of fact presence in my social experiences over decades, and I was not indoctrinated by my family with any sort of prejudices against them. During my formal education in Philadelphia, and to some extent in my work experiences, Jews made up a significant portion of my social circles. Having known so many liberal-to-left Jews (although there certainly were exceptions), I'm disappointed at the extent of Jewish support for Israel, granted Jewish establishment organizations tend to be more extreme than the Jewish majority in the U.S. Still American Jews seem to provide that establishment continued support and legitimation. Maybe I feel a bit duped. I understand some or all of the rationales, but I don't see them as justifying the injustice that was done in overlaying Palestine with a Jewish state.

(Fuck you in advance to anyone who wants to translate that last paragraph as "some of my best friends are Jews.")

I have to say, I really didn't appreciate Mordy saying that he thinks Palestinian solidarity movements are really driven by a desire to see Jews out of the middle east. As if it has nothing to do with the injustice done to the Palestinians. I grew into my current pretty vehement position regarding Israel qua Jewish state over a long period of time, starting from a point of knowing little about the issue and not having chosen a side. (In fact, it was chasing an Israeli Jewish woman, unsuccessfully as it turned out, that made me think: maybe I'd better find out more about this Palestinian-Israeli issue I've always heard about before I get involved with an Israeli. Obviously I didn't have much to worry about.)

Jews aren't so other to me that I feel like a complete outsider addressing Jewish issues. Of course, I understand that ultimately I am an outsider and will certainly be perceived that with with increasing intensity the more critical I am.

it is oppressive to Jews to claim, for example, that Zionist influences were the driving force for the U.S. invasion of Iraq

I'd say that this is reductive (at best) and "oppressive to the truth," rather than just to Jews. That certain Zionist Jews and their allies would have some influence in government, and that among that group were some key players in the foreign policy of the GWB administration, is without doubt. But that truth exists among a host of other truths, and the reasons for our invasion of Iraq cannot be reduced to "Zionist influences." I think you can well understand how attempts to reduce these complexities to the concept of "Zionist influences" is redolent of the idea of a Jewish cabal secretly or not-so-secretly pulling the strings of the world's governments -- one of the most tenacious and pernicious strands of anti-Semitic rhetoric since (at least) the 19th century. Those arguing that "Zionist influence" is the deciding factor in America's awful foreign-policy decisions are not developing that specious argument in a vacuum. That doesn't mean we can't call out the deleterious influence of AIPAC and other mainstream Jewish organizations on foreign policy, or more specifically the way that the range of foreign-policy discourse is presently circumscribed. But the difference between that observation and invoking "Zionist influence" as a reductive explanation for e.g. the Iraq invasion is a crucial one that thinking adults can, I hope, be responsible enough to make.

Jewish establishment organizations tend to be more extreme than the Jewish majority in the U.S. Still American Jews seem to provide that establishment continued support and legitimation.

There's a circular logic implied here. I'm American Jew. So are many of my friends and colleagues. Some, though by no means all, of us object to the politics of many mainstream Jewish organizations. We do not support them with our voices or our dollars. Indeed, I'm pretty vocal in my objections to AIPAC, the ADL, etc. But still I cannot see how we would escape your formulation whereby "American Jews seem to provide that establishment continued support and legitimation." The "seem to" is your weasel phrase here -- "seem to" to whom? and how?

You also have to understand that if you continue to attack Israeli government actions and ascribe those policies simply to "the Jewish state" or to "Jews," you will offend the likes of me, who is Jewish but doesn't identify with Israel, its current government, or the policies of same.

It's true that the rhetoric of the Israeli government and many "establishment" organs of the Jewish community in America, Israel, and elsewhere seek to elide these distinctions. That elision has a political purpose. The irony of course is that anti-Semites would also seek to elide these distinctions. You don't have to fall into that trap.

It is weird, sad, but maybe inevitable that we are having this discussion on a thread about a Palestinian singer who seems only about as political as any representative of the Palestinian people is effectively forced to be by the present situation.

At bottom my response to the Israel-Palestine conflict is summed up by the line from Rules of the Game, "Ce qui est terrible sur cette terre, c'est que tout le monde a ses raisons."

Well, I continue to think that the (second) invasion of Iraq was mainly driven by Zionist interests, and that it wouldn't have happened otherwise. Make of that what you will. This is based partly on Mearsheimer & Walt's The Jewish Lobby, some of Stephen Sniegoski writing (though I haven't gotten around to reading Transparent Cabal--there's that word again!), Jeffrey Blankfort's work, and generally following this issue online for a decade.

This is all peripheral to the point I was making. I'm not interested in getting into the details of the cause of the Iraq war, but there is ample reason for people to think that it was Zionist-driven. Enough so that saying that endorsing this interpretation of the roots of the Iraq invasion is oppressive to Jews or is antisemitic is an absurdity. If you don't agree with that, I can live with it.

[quote]But still I cannot see how we would escape your formulation whereby "American Jews seem to provide that establishment continued support and legitimation." The "seem to" is your weasel phrase here -- "seem to" to whom? and how?[/quote]

The major Jewish organizations in this country continue to support Zionism. There's plenty of documentation for that, go find it. James Petras has pulled together names of organizations, if that's what you need. Or you could try reading Mondoweiss on a regular basis. I probably should have phrased it more carefully than just "American Jews." I understand that not all American Jews support Israel. But the big Jewish organizations, as exemplified by the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish continue to do so, and I don't see these organizations massively losing American Jewish support.

I don't finally care much about whether you think I am off-base,
out of line, etc. or not.

I certainly will not stop sometimes referring to Israel as the Jewish state! What a laugh! Calling it by that name that it gives itself is a reminder of what the source of the problem was: ethnic cleansing and an apartheid (going by the broad definition used in international law, not meaning an exact repeat of Apartheid South African policy) state with an imperative to maintain an overwhelming Jewish demographic.

Post or don't post. Listen or don't listen. There is no way I am going to change what I say and how I say it simply because it causes you offense (but if I've made some statement more sweeping than I meant to make it, I am willing to say so).

http://electronicintifada.net/sites/electronicintifada.net/files/styles/large/public/-1.jpg?itok=ksH0LfSj

you are human faeces and deserve nothing but ill

amateurist, this is the same shit that poster has been posting for years

some cool reading material here

History of Isrel/Palestine

Rudiph is not winning one over with the above...

But back to thread subject:

http://www.albawaba.com/entertainment/king-charts-mohammed-assafs-first-ever-album-claims-1-spot-hours-after-its-release-613

first ever music album "ASSAF" claimed the number one spot on music charts in Saudi Arabia, UAE and Jordan, and ranked in third place in Lebanon, only hours after its release.

The long-awaited album, which was released in the early hours of Wednesday, includes 11 singles, which he created with some of the Arab world's most creative composers and poets, including Ahmad Madi, Ziad Burji, Mohammad Rahim, Melhem Barakat, Nizar Francis, Fares Iskandar, Nasser Al Asaad and Michelle Fadel.

The talented superstar will celebrate the release of his first album on the Arab Idol stage

some cool reading material here

History of Isrel/Palestine

"In this extraordinary book, Alan Hart has succeeded in elucidating for us the immediate and long term dangers involved in the unconditional Western support for Zionism and its oppressive policies against the Palestinians. . . . Motivated by a genuine concern for peace in Israel and Palestine and beyond in the world at large, Alan Hart has written not only a strong indictment of Zionism, but also provided us with a charter for a better future."--Ilan Pappe (One of the Israeli "new historians," now in at least part-time exile.)

amateurist the thread initially took an explicitly political turn when you came onto it and in one of your first posts cast sidelong glances at Mondoweiss--a site which you were apparently unfamiliar with, not a good sign you have any active interest in this issue--like my Calvinist sister and her husband looking with deep suspicion at the uber-pagan poetry books I had my parents by me for Christmas. Not that I probably wouldn't have added some overt sloganeering at some point.

In one of our conversations Ilan said he thought Zionists were more frightened by my book than any other because of its title. His latest book, he said, they could rubbish in their usual way. "Your book," he added, "is a real problem for them because its main title, Zionism, The Real Enemy of the Jews, is the whole truth in seven words."
--Alan Hart (from the first volume of the book mentioned in this quote

Personally, I can't imagine myself choosing that as a title, and perhaps Pappe was being overly generous for a friend by ascribing the book such importance. But I do think it's worth reading and many of its contents might surprise its detractors.

The worst thing I did in that thread was recommend books that didn't fit what the OP has asked for, but I'm not convinced there can be much in the way of an objective or neutral book on the I-P conflict. You can avoid editorializing and make sure to present reasoned, fact based arguments, but what to ignore, emphasize, or de-emphasize will always be a consideration.

amateurist the thread initially took an explicitly political turn when you came onto it and in one of your first posts cast sidelong glances at Mondoweiss--a site which you were apparently unfamiliar with, not a good sign you have any active interest in this issue--like my Calvinist sister and her husband looking with deep suspicion at the uber-pagan poetry books I had my parents by me for Christmas. Not that I probably wouldn't have added some overt sloganeering at some point.

Rudy, I tried to be very civil here, but you make it very difficult. You obviously have a strong sense that your the only one who has the correct understanding of this issue and feel empowered to insult even those who go out of their way to consider your points. In other words, you seem like a real treat.

Btw you may not realize it but you're trapped in a feedback loop... you seem to take glee (you can't deny this, just see your own posts above) in staking out a position where folks are going to criticize you for a discourse of conspiracy that comes dangerously close to anti-Semitism... and you use that criticism as yet more evidence that Jews constitute a monolithic in-group. I don't see this developing in a very healthy way. But I wish you luck.

There is no way I am going to change what I say and how I say it simply because it causes you offense (but if I've made some statement more sweeping than I meant to make it, I am willing to say so).

fwiw nobody was asking you to do anything, much less because it caused them offense. but congrats—you've attained the rhetorical sophistication of a 5th grader at recess. "you can't tell me what to say! i can say whatever i want!"

indeed.

So the Platinum Records debut turned out to be pretty disappointing. I have nothing much to say about it, except I don't like most of it. I agree with a lot here:

http://www.thenational.ae/arts-lifestyle/musicians/track-by-track-review-assaf-by-mohammed-assaf

The World Cup anthem was already a disaster, so I never followed up on it here.

*

Again, amateurist, you come onto this thread, and although you say you mostly agree with me re: this conflict, your priority is to worry about the posters (most of them probably Jewish, or at least claiming to be) on Mondoweiss making comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany. Post-"Protective Shield," you return to complain about me using the phrase "the Jewish state." Where are your priorities?

I repeat: I know not all Jews support Zionism or Israel. However, a good portion of the network of Zionist support is nested within mainstream Jewish organizations. You criticize me using "weasel words." Here is one example (of the sort I see constantly) of why it seems like there is support for Israel from the majority of American Jews:

More than half of U.S. Jews say U.S. support for Israel is about right (54%), although a substantial minority says the U.S. is not supportive enough of the Jewish state (31%)

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/10/01/chapter-5-connection-with-and-attitudes-towards-israel/

So a hefty 85% majority of American Jews think that U.S. support for Israel is about right or not even enough.

I follow this issue pretty closely. I see the success of Zionists of various stripes in muzzling or at least making life difficult for those who oppose Zionism or even offer modest criticisms of Israeli policy. The Steven Salaita case is a recent somewhat high profile example. But you know all this. My refusal to water what I think and how I say it is (admittedly microscopic) part of a much larger struggle against this suppression.

I've already been accused on this thread of being a terrible person for recommending a book recommended by one of the main Israeli New Historians. That's the kind of bullshit that exists around this issue.

In at least some cases, specific claims resemble antisemitic tropes because specific facts resemble antisemitic tropes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5mu79ygShs

I wish Republicans and conservatives would all see that short video.

http://www.irmep.org/
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/11/billionaires-sheldon-adelson
etc.

Forbidding anyone from pointing these things out is a good way to protect Zionist crimes. Is highlighting this sort of information bad for the Palestinian cause? Guess again.

Not impressed with your attempts at sophistication and gravitas, amateurist.

(I do honestly apologize for the long gaps but I don't have the energy to fight most of the time. At the same time I can't resist fighting when I have the energy and there's a reason for it.)

nobody is forbidding you from doing anything. you seem to rely on that trope--that somehow people are preventing, or trying to prevent, you from having your say--to fuel outrage. but all i see here is a dialogue, albeit a frustrating one.

also i'm not sure why you're policing my supposed "priorities" based on my response to you in a single thread. i don't mean to be dismissive of your larger points, but you don't seem like a very nice person and i'm not sure what the good of engaging with you would be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBS6KphjOH8

Very "new sound" tribute to Cairo--so appropriate, but nothing too exciting.

Free Palestine! Free Washington, DC!