this fredo santana song is all over the fucking place, er, I mean, he's truly a master of hemiola in the Elvin Jones tradition
― tuostprophets (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 7:53 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
the entire thing had nothing to do w/ the micro level of being slightly off beat which is a longtime affect of his flow and was about a particular answer but yr Intentionally Misinterpret An Argument tactic is dumb
― rap steve gadd (D-40), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:20 (ten years ago) link
the notion that an artist needs to be consciously aware that the rhythmic technique he's using has a precedent and a name in music theory is beside the point / has nothing to do w/ whether or not he's consciously using it
― rap steve gadd (D-40), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:21 (ten years ago) link
can't you guys just admit that you kept giving david shit about this because "hemiola" is an absurdly ridiculous phrase
― le goon (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:21 (ten years ago) link
just like, the sound of it
and i doubt people said that to jazz musicians using it either whats your point?― rap steve gadd (D-40), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:18 AM (53 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalinkmy pt was that he's using an atypical rhythmic trick there, which is undeniably true― rap steve gadd (D-40), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:18 AM (9 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― rap steve gadd (D-40), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:18 AM (53 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
my pt was that he's using an atypical rhythmic trick there, which is undeniably true
― rap steve gadd (D-40), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:18 AM (9 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
the undeniable chops and evident years and years of careful practice and woodshedding inherant in Chief Keef and Fredo Santana definitely lead me to believe that they are using "tricks" from the jazz arsenal instead of just being shitty rappers who can't stay on a beat
― tuostprophets (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:22 (ten years ago) link
what i'm getting out of this is that none of you know what hemiola means
xp
― festival culture (Jordan), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:23 (ten years ago) link
and i doubt people said that to jazz musicians using it either whats your point?
well now my point is "you don't read what other people write" considering that here you are parroting back at me something that I JUST WROTE
xp: hold on there, Jordan
― SHAUN (DJP), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:23 (ten years ago) link
chief keef was recording for five years and wasn't using tricks from 'the jazz arsenal' but rather tricks from popular music that are unusual for a rapper to use in a flow, the only reason we associate hemiola w/ jazz is 70+ years of theoretical writing (which, incidentally, was written after the fact, not something that jazz musicians were consciously like "now i shall employ hemiola") which came in its wake.
and the off-beat affect of keef's flow isn't what we're talking abt here at all but keep changing the subject
― rap steve gadd (D-40), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:25 (ten years ago) link
you guys can't be serious
― le goon (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:25 (ten years ago) link
there is nothing funnier than a hopeless double-down but I am afraid one day we're going to accidentally Ottify deej
― SHAUN (DJP), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:28 (ten years ago) link
He moola
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:29 (ten years ago) link
the jazz musicians you're talking about had chops, is the thing
― combination hair (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:29 (ten years ago) link
you don't gotta have theory but you do gotta have chops
― combination hair (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:30 (ten years ago) link
just for the record i'm pretty sure it's used specifically to refer to repeated dotted quarter note / 3 against 2 rhythms, and Rev's track that i'm talking about in the revive is actually doing that. but please keep arguing about whether keef is intentionally (slightly) off beat or not.
― festival culture (Jordan), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:30 (ten years ago) link
guys
― le goon (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:30 (ten years ago) link
― SHAUN (DJP), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 9:23 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i am very much reading what you wrote. jazz musicians today do use the word 'hemiola' but again, 70+ years of theoretical writing. jazz musicians today are also going to jazz programs at universities.
in the evolution of jazz historically, the hemiola was a device that was used, even if the artist didnt know it had a particular name. certainly a few of the artists w/ classical training & after the arrival of bebop would have been aware of what the real name of it was.
w/ the keef example with big lean, he was kicking a flow i wasn't familiar with that seemed to arrive at a different time on the beat than usual. i wasnt' sure if there was a musicological term to describe what he was doing (although I certainly would expect that he wouldn't know if there was)
people who wanted to believe that i have some completely overanalyzed, overintellectualized relationship w/ this music and that i don't 'get' it's purpose want to believe that I'm making some argument about him being a technical wizard genius which isn't what i'm doing ... all i said was that he took a novel rhythmic approach
― rap steve gadd (D-40), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:35 (ten years ago) link
ppl are giving you shit but no one is seriously thinking you're saying that. it's just, we're suggesting instead of him having a "novel rhythmic approach" maybe he's just sloppy and not very good as a rapper?
― My Chief Keef Keef (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:44 (ten years ago) link
right and i'm talking about a particular example where he is clearly making a conscious effort to do something different so your opinion of his usual flow is kind of irrelevant
― rap steve gadd (D-40), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:47 (ten years ago) link
he is not "clearly making a conscious effort to do something different" - that's clear to you. To others, who know at least as much about music as you do, it just sounds like he's rapping badly.
― combination hair (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:48 (ten years ago) link
however if you wanna go Death of the Author and say the hemiola's there for the careful reader well n'est pas hors-texte & whatnot
― combination hair (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:49 (ten years ago) link
haha, oh right, that's the track we're talking about it. not do to this again but i still maintain that the engineer misaligned the vocal track.
― festival culture (Jordan), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:56 (ten years ago) link
Which track is it again?
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:57 (ten years ago) link
this seems clear to me, too - as I said back when the hemiola first reared its head, it sounds like Keef can't hear the beat. that means either a) he actually couldn't, or b) he could, but the vocal track in (most likely) Pro Tools got dragged a little ways one way or the other in mix
― combination hair (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 16:00 (ten years ago) link
as a side note, big lean def sounds like a big sean fan which is funny bc his name is one letter off
― rap steve gadd (D-40), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 16:01 (ten years ago) link
Big Yawn
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 3 December 2013 16:02 (ten years ago) link
Yes, I know this, which is why I keep cracking up that deej chose "hemiola" as an example and seems determined to go down in flames defending the choice rather than saying "maybe that was a bad example"
― SHAUN (DJP), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 16:02 (ten years ago) link
mind-bending
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4jAa5Za-nQ
― festival culture (Jordan), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 16:02 (ten years ago) link
retracted
― festival culture (Jordan), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 16:03 (ten years ago) link
― SHAUN (DJP), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:02 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
it was obv a bad example bc people just like saying the word over & over—it was merely an example of a macro rhythmic trick as opposed to a micro ('he's so off beat!') one
― rap steve gadd (D-40), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 16:05 (ten years ago) link
Can we change the name of this thread to something that has hemiola in it please?
― longneck, Tuesday, 3 December 2013 16:09 (ten years ago) link
― combination hair (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:00 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
im willing to believe the latter is also a possibility. it doesn't sound like he can't hear the beat at all though...he's still rapping to a beat of some kind
― rap steve gadd (D-40), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 16:10 (ten years ago) link
that's why i think it's misaligned, because the rhythm in his track is internally consistent but consistently off from the beat.
― festival culture (Jordan), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 16:19 (ten years ago) link
xp that's what I think is the case - he heard it when he tracked it. sorry if this is almost doubtless overexplaining shit you already know but when you track in Pro Tools (and I assume in any other digital protocol but PT is the standard, p much everybody uses it) whatever you're playing ends up on a track like here:
http://cdn.uberreview.com/wp-content/uploads/pt.jpg
you can click and drag on anything in there and move it right or left, and producing in pro tools is basically untold hours of clicking and dragging - moving beats over, words over, deleting regions you don't like and pasting in parts you do, etc. I have no idea how producers can stand it, it's numbing to watch. but I recently had a track dragged about an inch and a half to the right accidentally, because everybody was tired, and we didn't know it had happened and when we listened to playback, it sounded like nobody could hear anybody else.
― combination hair (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 16:21 (ten years ago) link
I have no idea how producers can stand it, it's numbing to watch
i would hate to do it for music that's supposed to sound live and seamless and untouched by the cold digital hands, but it's fun when it's the creative method you're using to make the music happen (ie rap beats or electronic music).
― festival culture (Jordan), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 16:31 (ten years ago) link
step up in Deej's town you know everything ishe-mi-olahe-mi-olahe-mi-ola
― My Chief Keef Keef (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 16:36 (ten years ago) link
the 'engineer messed up' theory makes no sense to me because there's songs all over Keef's major label album where the vocals wobble in the vicinity of the beat in the exact same way, it seems consistent with performances throughout his career
― deez the season (some dude), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 16:39 (ten years ago) link
he's still rapping to a beat of some kind
― rap steve gadd (D-40), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 11:10 AM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post
The beat of his own drummer, man
― tuostprophets (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 16:40 (ten years ago) link
y'all are hemiolaphiliacs
― Strangers look on with a discernible, barely contained ‘wow’. (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 16:45 (ten years ago) link
i swear i'll still be reading this conversation in 5 years' time
― lex pretend, Tuesday, 3 December 2013 16:45 (ten years ago) link
he should do a track with that dude from das racist, heemsiola
― festival culture (Jordan), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 16:47 (ten years ago) link
― deez the season (some dude), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:39 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
are you trolling or
― rap steve gadd (D-40), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 16:51 (ten years ago) link
nah -- that verse sounds like a lot of his verses to me. the fact that you seem to advocate that the verse is either deliberately rhythmically complex OR the result of an engineering accident as if those 2 theories are in any way compatible seems more like trolling to me.
― deez the season (some dude), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 17:10 (ten years ago) link
you seem to be the only one who doesn't hear a difference between that particular song and his others. is the difference between his flow being slightly off the beat and the actual placement of his words w/in each measure not a concept you're grasping or
― rap steve gadd (D-40), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 17:16 (ten years ago) link
ok, so if i'm wrong and that verse is unique and glaring -- which theory do you support? is it him doing rhythmic backflips or a lousy engineer? it can't be both.
― deez the season (some dude), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 17:21 (ten years ago) link
he is soooo nice lol i herd his gang killed lil jojo rotf
― Phoebe (color definition point of "beyond "color, eg a transient that), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 17:27 (ten years ago) link
most sweetest post-oj da juice can't-have-my-cocaine weed music
― Phoebe (color definition point of "beyond "color, eg a transient that), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 17:28 (ten years ago) link
chicago is a seriously mixed crows
― Phoebe (color definition point of "beyond "color, eg a transient that), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 17:29 (ten years ago) link
we went over that when it was first discussed, sd
― rap steve gadd (D-40), Tuesday, 3 December 2013 17:30 (ten years ago) link
im not blaming the engineer, i think its intentional (think dont know). but i disagree, his entrances are all coming in on the same early count -- it sounds like his verse (or the waveform) is shifted to the left.
although i kind of like this too lol:
KENNY GK 2 days agoKeef killed this. the beat is just fucked up smhReply ·
― D-40, Monday, December 31, 2012 2:34 PM (11 months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
hemiyolo
― flopson, Tuesday, 3 December 2013 17:38 (ten years ago) link