Which is the better 1995 DnB classic?
― azaera, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 01:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
BST still sounds great. I bought it a second time, when it was remastered/reissued. Timeless actually sounds anything but (though the title track brings back good memories.)
― henry s, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 02:58 (9 months ago) Permalink
I probably prefer BTS but a substantial amount of Timeless actually is timeless - esp. "Saint Angel", "Angel" and "Kemistry".
― Tim F, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 03:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
Timeless has a few nice tracks, but as a whole it represents some of the worst tendencies that took over jungle/d&b once it started become arty: overtly long noodling tracks, watered down coffee table/jazzy sounds signifying "deepness", etc. Though of course Goldie took all that's wrong with that album to the next level of shittiness with "Mother", but still, BST is better even with the crappy sound.
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 07:37 (9 months ago) Permalink
Give me Parallel Universe or The Self Evident Truth Of An Intuitive Mind over either of them, though.
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 07:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
LOL tuomas u so crazy
it took me 0.000001 seconds to vote for timeless
― the late great, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 08:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
a substantial amount of Timeless actually is timeless
not to mention timeless!!
goldie's remix of universal love is better than the universal love on parallel universe, and it also has that problem a lot of 4hero material does where everything just starts to sound exactly the same, detroit synths, tinkling breaks, female vocalist going ahhhh ahhh ahhhh ahhhhh into the wormhole, etc.
it does have "paranormal in 4 form" and some other dope tracks but for whatever reason those tracks don't grab me the way the songs on timeless do. goldie came up with some serious earworm craziness - i've literally had "inner city life" stuck on my head since the instant i saw the thread title.
― the late great, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 08:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah the beats themselves on Timeless are super super memorable, they're like hooks in a way that just wasn't the case on Parallel Universe (or, if I'm honest, BST).
LOL at thinking Self Evident Truth is useful for anything except soundtracking a mud bath.
― Tim F, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 09:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
It's been years since last listened to Timeless, but I don't remember the beats on it being better than on Parallel Universe... Anway, if you think PU hasn't got awesome drums, you need to relisten to it, some of the beat chopping on that album is still jaw-dropping. It's true that the tracks on PU are kinda samey, but at least they're not lame.
You may laugh, but IMO Self Evident Truth does some of the things Goldie attempted in Timeless (formal experiments, jazzy and ambient moods) with more interesting and less coffeetable-ish results.
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 09:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH
― Une ville musulmane dans la Chine du Nord sous les Mongols (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 5 September 2012 09:58 (9 months ago) Permalink
sorry, that duh was directed at the question and you oddball Timeless voters
― Une ville musulmane dans la Chine du Nord sous les Mongols (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 5 September 2012 09:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
So this is the tracklisting of the single-disc Timeless:
1 Timeless 21:02 1.1 Inner City Life 1.2 Pressure 1.3 Jah 2 Saint Angel 7:17 3 State Of Mind 7:06 4 Sea Of Tears 12:04 5 Angel 4:58 6 Sensual 8:13 7 Kemistry 6:50 8 You & Me 7:02
Now really, does anyone have any issues with any tracks apart from "State of Mind" and "Sea of Tears"?
So that's like, 75% greatness.
I still do prefer BST probably but this TS is in no way clear-cut.
― Tim F, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 10:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
it's not a question of Timeless being no good, it's a question of it not being Black Secret Technology
― Une ville musulmane dans la Chine du Nord sous les Mongols (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 5 September 2012 10:27 (9 months ago) Permalink
Ok yeah, if you swap those two for 'This Is a Bad' and 'Jah the Seventh Seal' off the 2CD version then Timeless would win this - that said, I haven't listened to BST in a while.
― Gavin, Leeds, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 12:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah that's kind of what I was thinking.
I need to listen to both again before offering firm opinions though.
― Tim F, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 12:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
I could see voting for the best hour of Timeless (not even sure "Inner City Life" would make that) but neither 1 or 2 CD versions that were actually released were as good as BST.
― Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 5 September 2012 12:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
Haha yeah that seems right to me too.
― Tim F, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 13:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
BST isn't on Spotify but Timeless and man why the fuck don't I listen to this all the time
― DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Wednesday, 5 September 2012 14:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
I mean, fucking Goldie
massive
― DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Wednesday, 5 September 2012 14:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
this is impossible
― blank, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 19:53 (9 months ago) Permalink
BST by miles tho the CD versions never sounded half as good as the vinyl copy i had of the first issue
― X-101, Thursday, 6 September 2012 08:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
― Une ville musulmane dans la Chine du Nord sous les Mongols (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 6 September 2012 08:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
i mean FFS
that's def the best track on BST and it is as good as the best on timeless but i think there's a fair amount of undistinguished stuff on BST
― the late great, Thursday, 6 September 2012 09:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
there's a crystalline quality to the whole of BST that "Finley's Rainbow" exemplifies for me but i don't find anything undistinguished on it. maybe it's more of a piece than Timeless which you could read as my positive spin on "samey" if you want
― Une ville musulmane dans la Chine du Nord sous les Mongols (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 6 September 2012 09:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
Had BST on this morning for the bus ride to work, apart from it being a more consistent listen than Timeless (there aren't any outright clunkers) I think it wins out for its sense of space - the arranging (if that's the best word for it) has so much depth and detail, just really great sonics. The highlights of Timeless ('Kemistry' and the title suite) are more beautiful than anything on BST though, so there is that.
― Gavin, Leeds, Thursday, 6 September 2012 10:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
Never ever got into Timeless, I always heared Goldie as a producer as a bit flat. Guy Called Gerald has been a great producer for a quarter of a decade now.
Ending track on this album so good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TEbqS3Wmnzg
― Chewshabadoo, Thursday, 6 September 2012 11:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
what are the clunkers on Timeless? i'm guessing most people think of the Not DnB tracks (because all the beat-heavy ones seem roughly equal in quality) as the weak links, which seems dubious.
― nashwan, Thursday, 6 September 2012 11:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
State of Mind, Sea of Tears and You & I are the ones that never really did it for me.
― Gavin, Leeds, Thursday, 6 September 2012 11:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
Adrift isn't that great either.
Spring Heel Jack - There Are Strings deserves to get mentioned in the discussion of best DnB LPs of 95. I've played it more than either BST or Timeless.
― brotherlovesdub, Thursday, 6 September 2012 14:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
As a stand alone cut, I could see how Sea of Tears would underwhelm, maybe sound too watered down in the context of its genre. But I do love how spacious the beatless sections are. And I think it fits well as a deep cut in the album.
― azaera, Thursday, 6 September 2012 21:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
<3 sea of tears and you & i, state of mind is just meh
― the late great, Thursday, 6 September 2012 21:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah I don't even really take issue with "Sea of Tears", but I see how it might put others off.
"You And Me" is straight fire beautiful though.
― Tim F, Thursday, 6 September 2012 21:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
State of Mind, Sea of Tears and You & I are the ones that never really did it for me
You & Me, surely? My second favourite on there (after Kemistry).
― I've been to Suffolk (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Thursday, 6 September 2012 22:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
― Tuomas, Wednesday, September 5, 2012 9:46 AM (5 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
To be fair to this album it goes in a lot harder than I ever remember when it's not actually playing. The ostentatious four minute ambient intro probably doesn't help.
― Tim F, Monday, 10 September 2012 13:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
playing "Life Unfolds His Misery" right now and this is an impossible question to answer
― DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Monday, 10 September 2012 13:29 (9 months ago) Permalink
Gothian Slip there
― syntax evasion (Noodle Vague), Monday, 10 September 2012 15:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
surprised nobody's recorded a black metal track called "Life Unfolds His Misery" tho
― syntax evasion (Noodle Vague), Monday, 10 September 2012 15:37 (9 months ago) Permalink
some dude grunting "CHOKE ON IT" before the drop
― syntax evasion (Noodle Vague), Monday, 10 September 2012 15:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
it took me 0.000001 seconds to vote for timeless― the late great
― the late great
Seconded.
― millmeister, Monday, 10 September 2012 20:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
gave timeless a listen for the first time in a while this afternoon and now feel confident about voting for BST.
― circles, Monday, 10 September 2012 22:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
BST is gonna win on contrarian obscureness quotient and/or finley's rainbow being better than anything else imo
― the late great, Monday, 10 September 2012 23:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
BST doesn't seem particularly obscure at this point though - its rep has grown a lot since / coinciding with the reissue a few years ago.
Like, both albums ended up on FACT's 100 albums of the 90s list, but BST chimes in with that entire sensibility (i.e. the one that considers all uk dance music as an idea to be reverse engineered from Digital Mystikz) better than Timeless does (though that disparity disappears if we're talking pre-Timeless Goldie or the first four years of Metalheadz) - and indeed BST was number 4 on the list...
It's the same dynamic that makes Groove Chronicles more feted today than MJ Cole.
― Tim F, Monday, 10 September 2012 23:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
its rep has grown a lot since / coinciding with the reissue a few years ago.
Did it's rep grow as a result of it not being in print, though? Timeless has been dollar bin fodder for ages; less mystique
― blank, Monday, 10 September 2012 23:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yes, I think that's right too. I think that mystique is like pressure that builds and is released at the time that the album then becomes readily accessible again - like a spring.
― Tim F, Monday, 10 September 2012 23:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.
― System, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 00:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
mystique is like the perfect goldie tune title too. i've never really been able to get past the sludgy sound of BST. Jah the seventh seal is the best thing for me on either record. can't believe someone called goldie's production flat upthread, that track sounds like it's coming from another dimension.
― jed_, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 00:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
"Jah The Seventh Seal" is great but I think I would always have to go with "Angel" or (possibly) "Kemistry" as best - the incongruous mixture of light and dark that Goldie managed on those tunes seems like his greatest contribution IMO.
― Tim F, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 00:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah what as it bjork said about jungle? "exploding with fierce joy" or something. describes a lot of timeless, imo
― blank, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 00:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
Seriously I always try to imagine what it would have been like to hear "Angel" in 1993, what a mindf**k it would have seemed.
― Tim F, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 00:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
ha, my love of jah the 7th is probably a by-product of Kodwo Eshun's description of it more than anything else. i really need to listen to the whole thing again. i remember my mad anticipation of the release though.
― jed_, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 00:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
The only way I can really conceptualize this is that on the one hand Black Secret Technology might be the best album ever, on the other hand Saint Angel is the impossible groove.
― matt damon & the jb's (the anephric project), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 00:37 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah "Saint Angel" is insane isn't it, jungle idealised?
― Tim F, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 00:43 (9 months ago) Permalink
It's hard for me to even describe, but the way the beat sort of runs on, stutters and keeps falling down does my head in.
― matt damon & the jb's (the anephric project), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 00:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
uh-uh--uh!
― Tim F, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 01:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
exactly!
― matt damon & the jb's (the anephric project), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 01:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
i think this specific trick was very influential on ill blu, for one, I always think of it as the faltering gallop.
― Tim F, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 01:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
although it's less streamlined than that on "saint angel"
it WAS a complete mindfuck tim
― the late great, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 01:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
my brain didn't even process jungle as music when i first heard it in 93, it just sounded like someone had strung neon firecrackers all throughout a two bad mice track and was detonating them every ten seconds
― the late great, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 01:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
Regardless of the ambition (double album, extra long tracks, self-delcaring mainstream-bustin' genre flagbearer) I felt the sound design on Timeless was a benchmark for years and still its saving grace, altho no more than FSOL at the same time. It's only the thematic ideas being often so overbearing in new-agey-ness (dolphins maaan) that hamper it (again see FSOL and also BT's 'Ima' which was like a deep house equivalent to this in a few ways), plus this general reaction people often have against prog-like epics compared to something seen as edgier (Timeless is simultaneously aiming at innovation but also a jazz-based musical obedience probably down to the influence and encouragement of 4Hero) and more instant. Possibly some prefer BST because it sounds more 'bedroomy' and more raw yet more 'secretive' - less personal (Gerald, unlike celeb-in-waiting Goldie, not wanting to tell you all about himself, heart on sleeve).
― nashwan, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 12:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
and also BT's 'Ima' which was like a deep house equivalent to this in a few ways
This is so true! Although in my memory (I no longer have my copy) 'Ima' was more proggy than deep? Maybe deep-prog.
― Tim F, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 12:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
― jed_, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 01:36 (12 hours ago) Bookmark
Dillinja's Jah the Seventh Seal is a magnified detail from the Timeless canvas, a slowed-down blow-up of one hyperdimension. Breaks become chains as time turns to metal. Rhythm phaseshifts from needlepoint to industrial in a war between machine lifeforms on the metallic plateaux.
Two drumbreaks are processed until they rattle like chrome snaketails, panning in opposite ways around your head. When they meet they swallow each other and reverse backwards. Simultaneously, machinic groans and wrenching metallic sighs heave and drift across the overlapping orbits of both breaks.
These arhythmic noises compel a kind of bodily seizure, an agonizing muscular crisis, as if the motor coordination needed for walking, let alone dancing, has just crashed from too much sensation. The seething metal fatigue of Jah the Seventh Seal induces outbreaks of literally headwreckin' synapse-warping. Your head becomes this giant muscle, this mindless, agonized organ that doesn't know where to put itself.
― r|t|c, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 13:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
(d/led pdf & ocr, don't worry i'm not insane)
― r|t|c, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 13:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
I would have definitely tagged it as prog, I mean " Deep Skies"
― DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 13:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
Lol at that Kodwo Eshun description... I tried to read More Brilliant Than the Sun at least two times, but each time I just couldn't go on after the first 50 pages or so. It felt like he had some interesting ideas, but they were buried to deep within his post-futurist techno poetry.
― Tuomas, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 13:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
congrats at least on not saying THR RHYTHMATRIX kodwo
does he go on to talk about "the paranormal in four form" or is that a different chapter?
― the late great, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 14:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
post-futurist techno poetry good, intersting ideas bad
― syntax evasion (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 15:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
Timeless just edges it over BST for me, but re: the discussion upthread you can count me in as one of the weirdos that prefers Parallel Universe to both.
― Grimes, Shoots & Leaves (Mr Andy M), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 19:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
weirdo
― the late great, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 19:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
i feel like BST and parallel universe are more "subtle" in the mike skinner sense of the word (ie "boring")
― the late great, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 19:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
whereas goldie's grabs you by the neck and says DRUM AND BASS MOTHERFUKER, HOUR LONG SYMPHONIC SUITE TO FOLLOW!!!!!!!!!
― the late great, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 19:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
BST feels to me that it has aged in a different way from Timeless; like BST has bits where I think "I can see how this appealed so much to me" while Timeless has parts that still just grab and appeal in the same way, even though they don't have that same impact of the strange they did then.
― stet, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 20:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.
― System, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 00:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
I should've kept this poll open longer. Or perhaps it's that I regret having voted with my gut, not having actually listened to Timeless in years. I listened to Timeless so much in the mid-90s, that I kind of exhausted all the sense of wonder it had for me. I came to BST very slowly, a track here, a track there, over the course of many years. Eventually, I consumed it whole and gushed at how raw and enigmatic it seems.
I also recall Burial referring to it as a major influence around the time he was making Untrue (I think). The inspiration seems pretty clear, and adds a poignant layer to the legacy of BST.
Timeless has come to be so heavily associated with going to raves and driving up the coast, and doing all kinds of things in the 90s, that it's harder for me to listen to with fresh ears. And as nashwan touched on, Goldie's future celeb status also placed too many concrete associations in my brain when I listen to it.
― azaera, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 00:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
I initially expected results like this, but after hearing so many spirited defenses of Timeless, expected this to be much closer - and wasn't actually sure which would come out on top.
― azaera, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 00:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
Damn, thought I'd have the chance to sneak in and throw a vote Timeless' way, took way longer than I thought to dig up my ropey CD of BST. FWIW I think Timeless has regained a lot of mystique (or at least I've seen a lot more referencing of it late, inc. an installation playing "Mother" heh) - the whole new age-yness seems to vibe in w/a lot of art school kids/internet art/etc in the uh Lamp zone atm, lot of ~pristine~/dolphins/etc aesthetics going around.
― etc, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 01:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
welp
now this is happening
― the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 01:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
Listened to Timeless on the way to/from class last night. Still a mindfuck.
― blank, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 01:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
Cliche but It really needs to be listened to loud.
― blank, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 02:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
that's because it's mastered by dilinja and optical!
― the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 02:50 (9 months ago) Permalink
― the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 02:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
actually the optical thing is a lie
it was rob playford, not optical
though i feel like optical did some sick engineering work before he made his name for himself
― the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 02:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
the pre-dolphin song breakdown at 2:50 in universal love is the very definition of aquatic jungle
― the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 02:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
what engineering work did optical do pre "To Shape The Future"?
― Tim F, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 03:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
i'm talking out of my ass, probably
― the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 03:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
i think he did some ed rush and grooverider stuff
― the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 03:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
and dom & roland
groove called that track "more devastating than the borg"
optical two years before that track
― the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 03:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
the way the drums go crazay from 1:00 to 2:00 in the boymerang remix is just so fucking next level
― the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 03:18 (9 months ago) Permalink
and the bassline at 2:20 is just ... fucking sick
― the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 03:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
youtubes don't load for me at work - what's the d&r track more devastating than the borg?
― Tim F, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 04:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
For what it's worth, this thread has convinced me I should give Timeless another try. At the time I was so underwhelmed by all its new age cheesiness, especially compared to earlier, awesome Metalheads singles, that I haven't actually listened to it since the 1990s. I think these days I have a much higher tolerance for cheesiness than I had back then.
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 07:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah i don't feel like either record loses at the expense of the other, mostly this thread has just made me wanna dig up more of the 90s stuff i've forgotten, also d'n'b 4ever
― syntax evasion (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 12 September 2012 08:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
FWIW I think Timeless has regained a lot of mystique (or at least I've seen a lot more referencing of it late, inc. an installation playing "Mother" heh) - the whole new age-yness seems to vibe in w/a lot of art school kids/internet art/etc in the uh Lamp zone atm, lot of ~pristine~/dolphins/etc aesthetics going around.
― etc, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 02:14 (7 hours ago) Bookmark
idk if i'd have put it quite on the nose as this (not that you're wrong either mind) but i def agree timeless feels alive and like it still has a relevance compared to bst and indeed p much any of its dnb time capsule contemporaries
obv that is not a value judgement (although i like new things so for me it is)
― r|t|c, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 08:29 (9 months ago) Permalink
also i am the sort of reprobate that will try and air guitar to 'sea of tears' so ymmv
― r|t|c, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 08:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
Tim - boymerang's "still" VIP (optical / Dom & Roland mix!!)
― the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 09:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
single disc of Timeless is practically worthless
At the time I was so underwhelmed by all its new age cheesiness
it doesn't really have that much of this tho does it? Sea Of Tears may be the only main offender but it still has one of the greatest loop-based openings ever. most of the albums darts between intense brutality and jazzy noodling, not whales n' crystals.
― nashwan, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 10:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
Well, by "cheesiness" I was also referring to the jazzy noodling.
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 10:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
"sea of tears" is the shit
― the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 16:11 (9 months ago) Permalink