Bikini Kill - C or D?

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"New Radio"/"Rebel Girl"/"DemiRep" has to be one of the most amazing singles of the last decade. "The CD Version of the 1st 2 Records" is also pretty great. I'm not as crazy about their other stuff, but maybe it needs to grow on me.

I haven't asked this before because I have the feeling that I'm possibly the only person on ILM who really likes them.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 20 September 2002 00:34 (10 years ago) Permalink

You'd be wrong about that (I'm actually not in the 'really likes' camp, but there are a few folks who will happily claim that status here).

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 20 September 2002 00:48 (10 years ago) Permalink

I'll claim that "really likes" tag. Resist All-American is still my fave, but I like the whole catalog.

― Chris Barrus (xibalba), Friday, 20 September 2002 01:29 (10 years ago) Permalink

that's REJECT all american

― ron (ron), Friday, 20 September 2002 01:30 (10 years ago) Permalink

lets s/d also. search 'double dare you' intro: "i got a proposition goes somethin like thiiiis!" also 'i hate danger'/'i like fucking' (!!) great song titles.

― ron (ron), Friday, 20 September 2002 01:35 (10 years ago) Permalink

I think they're pretty good. 'specially Carnival, best song about giving carnies blowjobs ever. Also agree with ron on the brilliance of the 'double dare ya' intro.

― fractal (fractal), Friday, 20 September 2002 01:42 (10 years ago) Permalink

Le Tigre all the way, baby.

― Charlie (Charlie), Friday, 20 September 2002 01:50 (10 years ago) Permalink

"We're Bikini Kill and we want revolution grrl style NOW!"

― JM, Friday, 20 September 2002 02:12 (10 years ago) Permalink

LOVED then, love now. Kathleen Hanna remains among my more absurd crushes. HEY KATE - CALL ME! (1 900 MIX-ALOT)

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 20 September 2002 02:38 (10 years ago) Permalink

Don't know if I count 'cause I'm nü, but I really love Pussy Whipped and the comp of the first two records. I think they got away from what they did best on Reject All-American, somehow too polished.

― wl (wl), Friday, 20 September 2002 02:46 (10 years ago) Permalink

haha, I like BK and Le Tigre and Julie Ruin AND also have an absurd crush on Kathleen Hanna. I'm one of the more hopeless wannabe riot grrrl males around, so it's good to know I'm not alone here.

come to think of it, BK's singles compilation is probably my favorite punk rock of the '90s. I'd certainly rather listen to it now than Nevermind.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 20 September 2002 05:30 (10 years ago) Permalink

i WISH kathleen hanna had a big ass.

however, i'm pretty sure the singer from the gossip lives in my apartment complex, so that's good enough for me.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 20 September 2002 05:39 (10 years ago) Permalink

Classic.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 20 September 2002 05:39 (10 years ago) Permalink

jess, remember you called her an indie tart!

― ron (ron), Friday, 20 September 2002 05:43 (10 years ago) Permalink

how could i forget?!

(i stand by that.)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 20 September 2002 05:46 (10 years ago) Permalink

haha beth, if you google this, i'm in apartment B18.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 20 September 2002 05:47 (10 years ago) Permalink

or 867-5309.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 20 September 2002 05:49 (10 years ago) Permalink

Booty Call!

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 20 September 2002 06:09 (10 years ago) Permalink

it's a really good thing nancy doesn't check ilx anymore, etc.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 20 September 2002 06:10 (10 years ago) Permalink

Classic classic classic. First album changed my life. Reject fell a little flat for me too but it's probably better in retrospect. Pussy Whipped is probably where the first-timer wants to start. We could destroy "Thurston Hearts The Who" and it wouldn't break me up too much.

― teeny (teeny), Friday, 20 September 2002 10:05 (10 years ago) Permalink

''however, i'm pretty sure the singer from the gossip lives in my apartment complex, so that's good enough for me.''

crikey! what's the matter with you, I would've made my move earlier...as far as the q is concerned I haven't heard them.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 20 September 2002 10:14 (10 years ago) Permalink

claaaaassic, i think all of it. okay, there's some non-classic stuff there, but nothing that needs to be destroyed. i love music that makes me wish I was a lesbian. rebel girl is as great as music can be.

regarding Thurston Hearts The Who - I love that thing, actually. the built up noise/rant, breaks down completely with kathleen hanna moaning the lyrics in the background while tobi finishes... whatever the fuck she's reciting, everyone starts screaming, the instruments all jump and the percussion starts to fold in on itself...

it's an absolutely beautiful and meaningless moment.

― Adrian Langston, Friday, 20 September 2002 10:33 (10 years ago) Permalink

OK, lone voice of dissent. Never liked Bikini Kill. Kathleen Hannah, feminist cheerleader, annoys me on a level I can never quite express. (She's nice in person, though, which is surprising.)

Besides, Huggy Bear were WAAAAAYYYYYYYY better.

― kate, Friday, 20 September 2002 11:03 (10 years ago) Permalink

Hello. Mr. Watt. This is Kathleen Hanna returning your phone call. Bout 3:45 on Monday and it's about that fuckin record that you asked me to do something for. And I guess I'm responding to that now cuz I have a few minutes. And I just wanted to tell you...uh, I have a friend who was raped by, fucked by, whatever you wanna fuckin call it by this guy on your record, gonna be on your record. He's a big rockstar. Yeah when he was 27 and she was 13 he was a big rockstar too. And uh, I don't know if the phrase "power imbalance" means anything to you. But uh, I'm just not so sure I wanna be included in your little white rock boy fuckin hall of shame here, you know? I'm just like "do I wanna be sandwiched in between some of these guys that are just doing the whole, like, big white baby with an ego problem thing?" I mean, [sighs] get over it! It's so boring. It's like a lot of these guys should just fuckin quit music and become lifeguards at like Wild Waves or some shit. So they can just like get their fucking, you know, anger management thing going. They can just get their power trips out on the kids, they can just do the whole thing. Maybe they'd be actually saving someone's life: "Hey, don't run by the pool. No cutoffs." You know? That's what I hear when I hear some of this you know music by a lot of these fuckin guys, you know? And I mean, I guess what I'm saying is "I'm just too cool... to be on your fuckin record." You know? It's like I really don't wanna perpetuate or be included in a thing where it's just a bunch of like, I don't know, just like this new. The music coming out by guys right now in the sort of like rock world or alternative rock world or used-to-be-punk world or whatever. It's like the whole, "I'm a straight, white, middle class, male, rockstar guy, but I'm so fuckin oppressed." "I'm a loser baby why don't you kill me." [Sigh] Yawn. Like super fuckin yawn. So yeah, I guess what I'm saying is no, no, no, No. I'm not interested. No. I don't wanna be on your fuckin record. No. But ummm. Mr. Watt. Dude. Babe. Sir. Uh, you need to get me my fuckin Annie soundtrack back like soon cuz you've had it forever and I know you haven't even fuckin listened to it yet. Just like, gimme a call and tell me when that's going to happen. And ummm. I'll talk to you then. Bye.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Friday, 20 September 2002 13:30 (10 years ago) Permalink

OK, lone voice of dissent. Never liked Bikini Kill. Kathleen Hannah, feminist cheerleader, annoys me on a level I can never quite express.

You're not alone -- I'm in total agreeement there.

― Nicole (Nicole), Friday, 20 September 2002 13:35 (10 years ago) Permalink

i like bikini kill. kathleen hanna as a person i find a little annoying. S: the split with huggy bear, i hate danger, pussywhipped. D: reject all american.

― di smith (lucylurex), Saturday, 21 September 2002 04:28 (10 years ago) Permalink

This thread brings up something that I've been noticing fer awhile now- I've never met a female of the species who likes Rrrriot Grrrrl music. I (heart) Bikini Kill, Le Tigre, Sleater Kinney etc., but all my female friends simply *cannot* stand them.

― Daniel_Rf, Saturday, 21 September 2002 12:05 (10 years ago) Permalink

um, apparently you've never been to my town then.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 21 September 2002 14:43 (10 years ago) Permalink

I've never met a female of the species who likes Rrrriot Grrrrl music.

You've obviously never been to the west coast u.s., then...

― donut bitch (donut), Saturday, 21 September 2002 16:45 (10 years ago) Permalink

I've never met a female of the species who likes Rrrriot Grrrrl music

I take it you've never been to a Ladyfest. Any of the 40,000 of them.

I find Riot Grrl - philosophically - far too simplistic for the issues that they claim to address. And my whiny freshly lesbian 20 year old tolerance is pretty low. Musically - it just does not do it for me.

I think that the movement STARTED with some pretty interesting ideas and concepts (Suzy has a collection of inspiring zines and things from a decade ago) but got completely derailed.

Anyway, we've had the Riot Grrl: Classic Or Dud discussion before, I seem to remember.

― kate, Saturday, 21 September 2002 17:45 (10 years ago) Permalink

it's not something that's gone away or can be covered completely in one conversation, i think...

― jess (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 21 September 2002 17:48 (10 years ago) Permalink

Come to think of it, all my female friends who hate Rrriot Grrrl connect it with an obnoxiously extreme feminist viewpoint that seems to irk them, so they probably know girls who dig 'em. Teach me to post with a headache...

― Daniel_Rf, Saturday, 21 September 2002 18:34 (10 years ago) Permalink

haha beth, if you google this, i'm in apartment B18.

The Gossip should change their name to The Thieves. Jess keep a real good eye on your stuff. Don't ever invite them over to listen to records.

― brg30 (brg30), Saturday, 21 September 2002 19:58 (10 years ago) Permalink

That phone message reminds me: Watt and company do a great cover of "All Hands on the Bad One."

"Feels Blind" from the "Revolution Girl Style Now" debut cassette is one of those few songs that truly "changed my life," and seeing them live was one of the few concerts that did the same. I liked Huggy Bear's "Her Jazz" and a few other tunes, but there's just no comparison. BK's music was unique (girl-group meets Iggy surf meets soul), their politics were new, their confrontational stance was classic.

They has sex, controversy, cred, a real "movement," good records/CDs/tapes. I think there's one absolutely classic compilation to be made of all their stuff but riot grrrls apparently don't believe in box sets.

― Pete Scholtes, Saturday, 21 September 2002 20:28 (10 years ago) Permalink

I think the claim that Riot Grrl (or any movement) is too "simple" to deal with the issues it raises is on dodgy foundations, because it would seem to assume that it is in fact possible to deal indepth with a complicated idea in a two minute pop song; I mean, I've never heard "Free Nelson Mandela" but I doubt it starts by arguing that democracy is a better ideology than totalitarianism before bringing in the specifics of Mandela's case and then says Free Nelson Mandela.

this is probably a matter for another thread, though.

I like Bikini Kill, although I like Le Tigre more; I think 'Hot Topic' might not do much to develop the argument that we need to re-evaluate our cultural output from an outlook with less of a masculine bias, but that doesn't make it any less catchy.

― thom west (thom w), Sunday, 22 September 2002 00:38 (10 years ago) Permalink

riot grrrl is not and was never simplistic. the movement is as varied as the women/men who participate. the idea that riot grrrls all think/do the same "simplistic" things is decidedly offensive. and yeah, obv daniel has never been to auckland.

― di smith (lucylurex), Sunday, 22 September 2002 03:02 (10 years ago) Permalink

Huggy Bear are WAAAY better - 'Pansy Twist" has more classic riffs than BK came up with in their whole career. BK are fun, sure but more than a little over-rated i feel - the whole sound was 60's punk (good stuff) with catchy lyrics. The best thing the band did was open a dialgue which still continues, and for this reason are important and deserve respect - but the music is not as powerful as the message itself. If their wasn't a movment for them to have been the flagship of, they would have vanished without trace. All very hypothetical.
I was lucky enought to help organise a big all-ages show in my home town - Hobart, tasmania and BK came and played. they were cool and as has been pointed out, 'Feels Blind' is a great moment. I respect them but i never listen to the records any more. I also know stacks of girls who liked them, who played music and started bands because of BK. This is wonderful and i miss bands that inspire like that.

― threemetalinsects (threemetalinsects), Sunday, 22 September 2002 07:42 (10 years ago) Permalink

riot grrrl is not and was never simplistic.

YES. IT. FUCKING. IS.

For exactly the reasons that that Thom described in his posts above and more.

(overgeneralisation alert!) 90% of the "riot grrls" that I have met have been 20 year old girls freshly politicised by college with little to no experience of real life sexism and real life dilemmas. Their philosophies are as simplistic as their experiences, black and white, clear cut and as dogmatic and inflexible as this post is probably sounding.

Yes, I've met exceptions to this rule. But...

the movement is as varied as the women/men who participate.

Yup. That says it right there. College age, white, suburban, middle-class and freshly politicised. REALLY varied movement, Riot Grrl is.

― kate, Sunday, 22 September 2002 09:41 (10 years ago) Permalink

And yet another reason why Bikini Kill = DUD. You CANNOT have a discussion of their music that does not focus MAINLY on politics.

I can discuss the music of AC/DC without discussing their overwhelming sexism. I can't discuss BK without discussing their feminism. Why?

I don't have anything AGAINST political bands, I mean, more power to them for addressing something non-ephemeral. But when the politics overpowers and becomes more important than the CHOONS, then I think that there's something wrong there.

― kate, Sunday, 22 September 2002 09:43 (10 years ago) Permalink

i knew the next post on here would be from you kate, before i even looked at the thread. and i knew exactly what you were going to say. discussions like this are soooo unproductive.

― di smith (lucylurex), Sunday, 22 September 2002 09:51 (10 years ago) Permalink

Riot grrl FAILED as a political movement.

Riot grrl as a MUSICAL movement is as outdated as Grunge or Crusty or anything else that was floating around concurrently.

*YOUR* answer is so typical of every riot grrl I've ever met. As soon as I make valid critcisms, riot grrls shrug and refuse to discuss the issue rationally, as dogmatic as all born agains.

― kate, Sunday, 22 September 2002 09:56 (10 years ago) Permalink

hey i just don't wanna argue. i realise we are both opinionated people who aren't going to change each others opinions, thats all. yes your criticisms are valid. the point is that you even admitted that you are overgeneralising, so i think its rash to write off the entire movement. i don't see myself as fitting into your categorisation of riot grrrls, and yet finding out about women making rock music was one of the best things to happen to me (and other women i know). for that reason alone, it was not a failure. do you think all punk music is outdated, kate?

― di smith (lucylurex), Sunday, 22 September 2002 10:30 (10 years ago) Permalink

All women making rock != riot grrls.

That is one of the fundamental problems that I have with riot grrl, is their and/or the press's wish to dismiss ALL female rockers as being part of a tiny subculture. That is marginalisation, and that is wrong.

That's as insulting and dismissing as say all black musicians = rap. It's just not true.

Do you consider yourself a Riot Grrl, Di? That's a serious question.

To clarify matters, I am NOT one, yet the moment I start shooting my mouth off about feminism, I get dismissed as one by the mainstream. Yet to "real" Riot Grrls, I bear about as much relation to one as a liberal does to a Marxist. (Maybe that is part of why I dislike the movement... nah. It's just insult to injury.)

do you think all punk music is outdated, kate?

Yes. I think most punk music IS outdated. (Most ROCK in general is outdated, but that doesn't stop me from playing it.) Punk was a reaction to certain socio-economic constraints and cultural mores. To play punk in 1970s UK or late 80s/early 90s US was a revolutionary political and musical statement.

Now it stinks of retrofetishism. Don't play your grandparent's music as a form of rebellion against your parents.

― kate, Sunday, 22 September 2002 10:41 (10 years ago) Permalink

but i didn't say that all women making rock music are riot grrrls. i just meant its a useful way of finding out about (some) women making rock music. i was under the impression that it wasn't riot grrrls who wanted to define all female rock musicians as riot grrrls but that that was a misinterpretation from popular press. which obviously you have been affected by. thats the fault of mainstream media, and i believe thats one of the reasons why the riot grrrls did the whole press blackout thing, cos they kept getting misquoted and misinterpreted etc etc.

yes i do consider myself a riot grrrl, although i often make music that doesn't fit into the olympia-style format. and i also believe punk is important too, though obviously not in its neo fake blink 182 form. if it weren't for punk and riot grrrl i would never have picked up a guitar. everyone has to start somewhere, right? i don't subscribe to the idea that everyone has to be a master at their instrument before they can make interesting original music. but i also don't believe that people should stick to formulas either.

― di smith (lucylurex), Sunday, 22 September 2002 10:58 (10 years ago) Permalink

Courtney Love punching Kathleen Hanna = classic.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Sunday, 22 September 2002 11:06 (10 years ago) Permalink

Fair enough, that the movement was misquoted and misrepresented by the press. ALL feminist movements are misrepresented as bra-burning lesbian witches in the mainstream press. I've just met such a high percentage of freshly lesbian 20 year olds within riot grrl.

and i believe thats one of the reasons why the riot grrrls did the whole press blackout thing

If they'd stuck to the original press blackout thing, fair enough. But these days... having been part of a rugby style pile-on of neo-riot grrls stabbing each other in the back to get access to The Mainstream Press, well, it makes one a bit cynical.

Maybe my problem was that I was too OLD for riot grrl. My first exposure to women in music was NOT riot grrl, I had already been in a band for a couple of years when it exploded. So it seemed simplistic and overstating the obvious, to me.

I think that the original Riot Grrls knew that from its inception, the movement was going to be misunderstood and misinterpreted, but my understanding was that, the British version at least, (which I have slightly more respect for than their American cousins) was BUILT with an expectation that it would explode and end, like situationism, like dada. Hence why I get so irritated when people are still at it 10 years later, like don't you UNDERSTAND the point? The Riot Grrls I have the most respect for are the ones who grew up and took their political and feminist ideals out into the world, instead of just staying in this treehouse club.

if it weren't for punk and riot grrrl i would never have picked up a guitar. everyone has to start somewhere, right?

Fair enough. If it wasn't for the Shop Assistants and Sonic Youth, I'd probably have never picked up a guitar. I don't believe everyone has to be a prodigy to start a band, but I do believe that you should aspire to aquire some technical skills as you go on. (Kathleen Hannah still has to have Amy Ray change her guitar strings for her onstage! sheesh!)

All musical movements stultify and stagnate as they mature, and become reduced to formulae. It's happened to punk, too.

When music as an artform becomes secondary to philosophy or politics, that's where I get off. I dislike that in all artforms, be it punk rock or conceptual art.

― kate, Sunday, 22 September 2002 11:14 (10 years ago) Permalink

CL punching Kathleen Hannah = utter CLASSIC.

One of the many reasons I love the woman.

(Why is it every time I type CL, I want to type CTCL, much like I can't type Blue without automatically typing Blur?)

― kate, Sunday, 22 September 2002 11:15 (10 years ago) Permalink

CANNOT ANSWER ANY MORE!!! MUST GET IN SHOWER AND GO TO REHEARSAL!!!

My god, three posts in a row, I'm turning into Doomie! Help!

― kate, Sunday, 22 September 2002 11:20 (10 years ago) Permalink

it sounds like you have some pretty bad experiences with riot grrrl kate. i have to admit i've been isolated from it as a "movement" as such... there are no riot grrrls where i live (i don't think any of my bandmates/former bandmates would use the label although most have been influenced by it...), this is probably why i do not shirk the definition. though i think if i were from auckland i would see things very differently... riot grrrl up there is from all reports pretty cliquey and hegemonic, and dominated by a band who have been playing the same setlist for years (though i hear that they are finally developing, after 5 years about time too!).

but I do believe that you should aspire to aquire some technical skills as you go on
i wholeheartedly agree with this. thats what i meant regarding people not sticking to formulas.

― di smith (lucylurex), Sunday, 22 September 2002 11:30 (10 years ago) Permalink

women fighting with women = dud. i don't like courtney love at all. (though i admit i like early hole)

― di smith (lucylurex), Sunday, 22 September 2002 11:31 (10 years ago) Permalink

Skipping 45 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

haha "ten" haha

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 23 September 2002 11:11 (10 years ago) Permalink

Ned, you out there?

Yup -- Chels is a good friend of mine, and her thesis rocks. It's called Because and is going to be revised for publication by Routledge, so just keep yer eyes and ears open. :-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 23 September 2002 11:59 (10 years ago) Permalink

FWIW, Bikini Kill live at the Conway Hall (yes, that one julio) at the peak of riot grrl fever was one of the most exciting gigs I've ever seen.

― Jeff W, Monday, 23 September 2002 12:12 (10 years ago) Permalink

''Conway Hall (yes, that one julio) at the peak of riot grrl fever was one of the most exciting gigs I've ever seen.''

ah, amm and bikini kill (separated by a few years but anyway)...that's what i call 'good' music policy.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 23 September 2002 12:34 (10 years ago) Permalink

That comment about Kool Thing and Riot Grrl is exactly what fucks me off about it all. Claiming Kim Gordon for riot grrl is like claiming Margaret Thatcher as a Spice Girl.

Feminist and Riot Grrl are NOT synonymous, though people treat them as if they are. I am a feminist. I am NOT a riot grrl. All dachsunds are dogs, but NOT ALL dogs are dachsunds. Remember basic logic, please.

― kate, Monday, 23 September 2002 13:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

Coming up on the ten year anniversary of Riot Grrrl, what stands up?

I'd say nearly everything: Hit It or Quit It early issues (Sonic Youth interviewed in #3); all those great singles by BK, Bratmobile, Tiger Trap, Heavens to Betsy, Huggy Bear; the hilaroius mainstream press coverage; the old arguments that still piss people off; the Zeitgeist contributions of Slant 6, comic book artist Julie Doucet, Lisa Carver, Beat Happening, live concerts by Babes in Toyland, Susie Bright, and, yes, Kim Kim Kim.

Today HIOQI is still going, Bratmobile is still damn exciting live, Hanna is making the best records of her career, Sleater Kinney is Sleater Kinney. We have Bust and Bitch and Punk Planet, and still have Bright and Carver. Ladyfests are popping up across the country. I went to the one in Chicago last year, shortly before 9/11, and came away believing in idealist urges again. The brand name may be history, but Riot Grrrl as a movement/moment is no more or less dead than punk rock...

― Pete Scholtes, Monday, 23 September 2002 15:33 (10 years ago) Permalink

Actually, I would have loved seeing Maggy in a Spice Girls video a la Hanna in "Bull in the Heather."

― Pete Scholtes, Monday, 23 September 2002 15:37 (10 years ago) Permalink

I went to the Ladyfest in Chicago last year, shortly before 9/11, and came away believing in idealist urges again.

You're fucking kidding me... I came away from a Ladyfest fest tour wanting to listen to nothing but Eminem and AC/DC. A furious feminist (female) friend went to Ladyfest Chicago and was frankly disgusted.

Who is doing what wrong or right?

The Spice Girls did more (good or bad) for feminism than all of riot grrl put together: DISCUSS.

― kate, Monday, 23 September 2002 15:58 (10 years ago) Permalink

Actually I think that the best riot grrl vocal ever was the night queen's aria from The Magic Flute.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 23 September 2002 18:30 (10 years ago) Permalink

Bikini Kill - Dud
Le Tigre - Classic
Le Tigre's over eager, Bikini Kill worshiping, ticket buying fans in Toronto - DUD! [Yes I know, no show is truely sold out]

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Monday, 23 September 2002 18:54 (10 years ago) Permalink

kate, methinks thou is protesting a little too much.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 23 September 2002 19:57 (10 years ago) Permalink

I don't want to gang up, but what did your friend find disgusting about Ladyfest Chicago? The sex toy demonstration? ESG live? Blectom from Blechtom (sp?)?

― Pete Scholtes, Monday, 23 September 2002 20:07 (10 years ago) Permalink

Kate when Jess thinks you're coming down too hard on Ladyfest then you know you're in trouble

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 23 September 2002 20:35 (10 years ago) Permalink

jess is in invoking Shakespearean misogyny.

― bnw (bnw), Monday, 23 September 2002 20:41 (10 years ago) Permalink

anyway, back to Bikini Kill - I CAN never and WILL never be able to get past the abrasive quality of Kathleen Hannah's vocals. I just can't do it. Didn't we have a thread on that topic? I should really go post her on it. Might actually be tempted to like the band if it wasn't for her voice.

Same here. In that sense I think KH is the Eminem of riot grrl.

Actually KH reminds of Eminem in many different ways but that would take up more time to explain than I have right now.

And I loved Heavens to Betsy so please don't pull the old "ooh you horrible post-feminist riot grrl hata!" line on me.

― Nicole (Nicole), Monday, 23 September 2002 21:58 (10 years ago) Permalink

My quick two pennies here... I thought Bikini Kill hit something amazing with "Reject All American", but I've really been bored with everything by Le Tigre, save a couple of songs.

I wish Riot Grrl, or anything that approximates it, would have jumped onto sounds like the early days of The Need or Mocket. But nope. (See God Is My Co-Pilot thread)

― donut bitch (donut), Monday, 23 September 2002 22:07 (10 years ago) Permalink

i'd like to think that i can invoke the entire spectrum of misogyny, from cave times to future forms of degradation not yet invented.

i DO think riot grrl was a positive, but at this point i'm not particularly interested in debating it. living in olympia has certainly skewed my take on riot grrl and "indie politics" in general, i won't deny that. in two weeks (i think), nancy will be dragging me to homo-a-gogo where they are promising a broad range of art and music representing queer views. but i bet i get a. a lot of video art b. screechy hardcore/fumbling indie/possibly something with a drum machine. and you know what: while i will and should find this incredibly tedious, for the masses of 18-22 girls and boys who attend, for whom this may well be their first exposure to a wider perspective on feminism or queer politics, it may well be "life changing." i find approaching things like riot grrl from the jaded and cynical perspective of an older mind.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 23 September 2002 22:38 (10 years ago) Permalink

I really don't think of Le Tigre as riot-grrrl at all, anymore than Public Image Ltd were punk, or the Plastic Ono Band part of the British Invasion.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 23 September 2002 22:55 (10 years ago) Permalink

jess your misogyny is wrecking yr grammar: that final sentence is not one

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 23 September 2002 22:59 (10 years ago) Permalink

pedant.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 23 September 2002 23:03 (10 years ago) Permalink

I have to say for basic rock ramalama fun. Not taking into account the message and all that. Le Tigre are much more better than Bikini Kill.

― fractal (fractal), Tuesday, 24 September 2002 00:47 (10 years ago) Permalink

I really don't think of Le Tigre as riot-grrrl at all, anymore than Public Image Ltd were punk, or the Plastic Ono Band part of the British Invasion.

as someone who doesn't view riot grrrl as being a genre, i disagree. its right to say they aren't riot grrrl punk, but as with s-k the riot grrrl aspect is still there in political concerns and influences.

― di smith (lucylurex), Tuesday, 24 September 2002 00:55 (10 years ago) Permalink

My last message was the worst message ever. I apologise to everyone. If this message is bad. I apologise for this message.

― fractal (fractal), Tuesday, 24 September 2002 00:59 (10 years ago) Permalink

your messages are fine, fractal, no need to apologise. i am interested to know what you like better about le tigre?

― di smith (lucylurex), Tuesday, 24 September 2002 01:05 (10 years ago) Permalink

fractal people have said some very dumb things on this thread, so no worries!!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 24 September 2002 01:10 (10 years ago) Permalink

yeah, but I don't think of punk or the Brit Invasion as being genres either, more like moments in history that came and went. if we define Le Tigre as riot grrrl, we might as well say the Shaggs were too. (not to say they aren't: I think it's appropriate to say "riot grrrl" was around long before anyone had a name for it) but at the same time, there's a certain difference from the early '90s zine-driven movement most of us associate with the name. I also don't think LT are nearly as closely associated with a community as BK were.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 24 September 2002 01:12 (10 years ago) Permalink

thats probbly cos everyone hates their transphobia.

― di smith (lucylurex), Tuesday, 24 September 2002 01:38 (10 years ago) Permalink

yeah...what was the story with that, anyway?

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 24 September 2002 01:39 (10 years ago) Permalink

It was INDIRECT transphobia at best, though. However that festival (Michigan Womyns) sounds kinda hippyish from what I've read, so there's other reasons they shouldn't have played it too.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 24 September 2002 01:45 (10 years ago) Permalink

their womens night are for "women-born women" only. i've just been reading about protests at their NY gigs re: transphobia on another messageboard i post at. apparently there were even counter-protests protesting the protests.

― di smith (lucylurex), Tuesday, 24 September 2002 01:47 (10 years ago) Permalink

its not just about them playing MWMF, andrew.

― di smith (lucylurex), Tuesday, 24 September 2002 01:49 (10 years ago) Permalink

Oh, ok. I should keep up. So they're into "women-born-women"... personally I don't like that. I hate gender exclusionism REALLY BADLY though.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 24 September 2002 01:58 (10 years ago) Permalink

hey Di do you have any links on this? I didn't mean to kill the thread, btw.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 24 September 2002 02:42 (10 years ago) Permalink

Re: di smith. I'm just basing this on hearing 'Cd Version of The First Two Records','Pussy Whipped'and the first Le Tigre record.

All I can say is I find Le Tigre more fun. If I'm being perfectly honest the only Bikini Kill songs I enjoyed were 'Carnival', Rebel Girl' and 'Feels Blind. Whereas I enjoy all of the first Le Tigre album.

I'm trying not to get into the riot grrl, feminist argument here, because 'Bikini Kill classic or dud?' in my opinion should only be about did they sound good? Same as early Public Enemy sounded great regardless of the message.

― fractal (fractal), Tuesday, 24 September 2002 03:12 (10 years ago) Permalink

the "c**lies" (they're called THE COOLIES) are great btw.

― unknown or illegal user (doorag), Tuesday, 24 September 2002 09:53 (10 years ago) Permalink

if we define Le Tigre as riot grrrl, we might as well say the Shaggs were too. (not to say they aren't: I think it's appropriate to say "riot grrrl" was around long before anyone had a name for it) but at the same time, there's a certain difference from the early '90s zine-driven movement most of us associate with the name. I also don't think LT are nearly as closely associated with a community as BK were.

i disagree with this statement as well. its is clear that the movement has changed as movements do, just like feminism has changed since the 70s. that doesn't mean that its not the same movement - or if it does mean its a different movement, then its one that is inextricably linked to the original one. as for community being a defining feature of riot grrrl, where does that leave someone like me who doesn't belong to a riot grrrl community, and doesn't strictly make punk rock?

okay i've found out the real deal on this: its not about them having women-born women only nights at all (urr please excuse this misinformation), its actually that le tigre have refused to sign any petitions against the MWMF policy, and won't state where they stand on the matter. even so, i don't think that counts as indirect transphobia.

― di smith (lucylurex), Tuesday, 24 September 2002 21:27 (10 years ago) Permalink

i don't think that counts as indirect transphobia.
meaning its closer to being direct than indirect. also, sorry i'm not going to put any links to the messageboard here.

― di smith (lucylurex), Tuesday, 24 September 2002 21:31 (10 years ago) Permalink

>That phone message reminds me: Watt and company do a great cover of "All Hands on the Bad One."<

Watt also did a crummy cover of "Rebel Girl".

― Adrian Langston, Saturday, 28 September 2002 06:18 (10 years ago) Permalink

Both Spice Girls and Bikini Kill rock my world. In strangely diverse ways.

But I've only ever been kissed by a Spice Girl (unless you count Billy). (And I do.)

― Jerry (Jerry), Saturday, 28 September 2002 16:05 (10 years ago) Permalink

8 years pass...

"Rebel Girl" is great!

― vacebook (crüt), Friday, 11 February 2011 00:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

she's got the hottest trike in town

― sleeve, Friday, 11 February 2011 00:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

It's pretty much the best ever imo.

― ENBB, Friday, 11 February 2011 00:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

That song reliably gives me goosebumps when she starts screaming...

― dlp9001, Friday, 11 February 2011 01:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

No mention of "Anti-Pleasure Dissertation" on this thread. That's one of my favourite songs ever.

― clemenza, Friday, 11 February 2011 01:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

That song reliably gives me goosebumps when she starts screaming...

WHEN WE KISS I TASTE THE REVOLUTION

― sleeve, Friday, 11 February 2011 02:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

1 year passes...

Listening to Reject All American for the first time in ages and ages. Holds up really damn well IMO. Yeah, it's a little more polished but it's also a little more varied...I appreciate the moody ballads for what they're trying to do, there's some serious feeling there, and then the shiny, borderline pop-punk songs just sound amazing coming out of the speaker. "Jet Ski" is pretty much my favorite BK song possibly... certainly my favorite Kathleen Hanna performance. So much force, so much gut.

― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 10 October 2012 22:36 (7 months ago) Permalink

favorite band of 90s

― a hauntingly unemployed american (difficult listening hour), Wednesday, 10 October 2012 23:43 (7 months ago) Permalink

the singles >>>>>>>>> reject = pussywhipped > the c.d. version etc

― a hauntingly unemployed american (difficult listening hour), Wednesday, 10 October 2012 23:44 (7 months ago) Permalink

favorite line prob "it's a predictable point of view / this group dynamic caters to / i think you know when it caters to you / and if you do know don't act like you don't cuz it's really annoying and if you don't know well let's just say you're a lot lot STUPIDER THAN I THOUGHT"

― a hauntingly unemployed american (difficult listening hour), Wednesday, 10 October 2012 23:46 (7 months ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

Big Washington Post interview article (coinciding with re-release of debut ep):

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/bikini-kill-was-a-girl-punk-group-ahead-of-its-time/2012/11/18/3fdc61bc-31d8-11e2-bfd5-e202b6d7b501_story.html

plus extra interview material that didn't get included:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/arts-post/post/bikini-kill-in-dc-memories-from-kathleen-hanna-kathi-wilcox-ian-mackaye-jenny-toomey-and-ian-svenonius/2012/11/18/9e32c736-31d0-11e2-9cfa-e41bac906cc9_blog.html

― curmudgeon, Monday, 19 November 2012 19:08 (6 months ago) Permalink

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