Pigfuck

destroy: the "lifestyle."

(it might also help to explain pigfuck, although perhaps not.)

Happy Flowers might be another example (if I'm remembering them right.)

I'm not sure Killdozer are *THE* "pigfuck" band, though. I'd sooner cite Pussy Galore.

As a recovering Hardcore kid, I was really into the idea of it at the time, but I don't know if it was really a "movement" to speak of but lots of the long-haired ex-HC/proto-grunge bands of the day kinda fit with the general idea of abrasive psychedelia: butthole surfers flaming lips jesus lizard bitch magnet scratch acid... neubaten t-shirts and leather pants, big hair. americans who talked about the birthday party a lot. all that but i'm getting pretty blurry on the chronology here.

happy flowers and killdozer were a bit too jokey and middle americaan straight ahead rock to be pigfuck. pigfuck was like banging on metal and doing junk.

tom, i dunno if you remember that little rant i put up about lester bangs on nylpm a few months back, but that pretty well sums up my feelings: it's anti-pc slumming by a bunch of intellectual runts who are trying to hide their middle class roots and accountants degrees. you know, band names like "rapeman" (tee hee!), ambivalance towards racism/homophobia, where the wild things are-esque "we'll eat you up we love you so" embrace of popular culture at least until the point where it actually bleeds into their world wherein they experience that cringe you were talking about. i think mark was right about nirvana, etc. killing off pigfuck proper, at least in terms of a "movement." but obviously its embers still survive as you've no doubt noticed by the number of "fuckin bitches and rawk" weblogs, etc.

*i.e. 2 zines - I feel like an archaeologist...

"Tuff Gnarl." (Thank you, google.)

Azerrad had a recurring theme in the book around the UK press being consistently turned on by a sort of caricatured persona of American savage or vulgarian. He also related it to Mudhoney, but that's where the "pigfuck" thing came in. Dunno if he was referencing you though, mark.

These won't be here forever:

The Puppy
Hi There

You'll be quoting, "He called Lois a cunt and said he didn't like the meat" whether you like it or not.

"Pigfuck." I'm glad that term fell out of the lexicon.

I have never heard of "pigfuck" but the name makes me laugh. I've been listening to killdozer quite a bit these last few days though, them and mudhoney, and I agree with j darn1elle's opinions on killdozer, and i think they're great! the lyrics are funny, as mentioned, but also quite clever, and with this real pungent turn of phrase. Also, not noted above is that they often used unusual time sigs, very effectively I thought, like, they'd play this grinding riff in something like 15/4, and it really does yer head in, b/c the one doesn't land where you expect it to. they're one of those bands I don't listen to that often, but when i do, i really enjoy them.

IIRC, one of Chuck Eddy's main arguments about the album in the Swellsvilles I sent Tom was that if Killdozer weren't so full of shit, so stupidly knee-jerk and contra the mainstream, they'd sound like Def Leppard. Knowing that Butch Vig produced LBB, this now kinda makes sense to me.

will try and get hold of some killdozer.

back in the 80s, pop critics threw it at any kind of nasty, american post-punk/hc noise. i mean fucking husker du, die kreuzen and naked raygun? those were basically just hc bands

Except I'm pretty sure nobody in the '80s threw it at Naked Raygun or Husker Du -- the latter of whom sounded really watered down by the time the term was invented. Die Kreuzen, conceivably, but then again they came from Wisconsin and were on Touch & Go, just like Killdozer (and they really weren't a hardcore band by the time "pigfuck" got coined; Husker Du, by then, hadn't been a hardcore band for several years.)

best all-time answer to the big question:

"What kind of music do you like?"

"Pigfuck."

I like Big Black & all, but their motorik buzz really doesn't sound much like the rest of these groops, so I agree w/ contenderizer's question re. their Pigfuck orthodoxy. Also - no long hair & homeless appearance. And thanks for bringing up Steel Pole Bath Tub. Great stuff, that! Let us not forget Ed Hall.

I didn't know it at the time, but Atlanta had a pretty sweet pigfuck scene. I'm not sure how the bands I was going to see would've reacted to a "pigfuck!" chant during shows, but that seems to be what they unwittingly were. The best know was probably Dirt, which grew out of the Opal Foxx Quartet [if I remember correctly] & later had members in Mt. Shasta, among others. There was also Magic Bone, Bad Egg Salad, Freak Magnet, Go-Devils, Pineal Ventana & a few others that flew by without releasing any vinyl or CDs. Pineal Ventana, an offshoot of King/Kill 33, may be particularly appropriate, as their stage show was known to include bestiality vids, flour and urine. Ya needed to be there.

I agree w/ contenderizer's question re. their Pigfuck orthodoxy

But Big Black, along with Sonic Youth (and maybe Das Damen, oddly enough), were the first bands to actually be called pigfuck. So it's not like the genre was orthodox to begin with. (Incidentally, in the essay where Christgau invented the term, he said pigfuckers considered Husker Du "Julio Iglesias in disguise." I'm not sure where the idea came from that anybody actually considered Husker Du a pigfuck band.)

I like the Pineal Ventana CDs I've heard; still have Axes To Ice from 2000 on my shelf. Had no idea before about their live show, though.

Das Damen???

I always thought totally UNGLAM - Killdozer,Big Black, Bastards, even Didjits.

I have got this wholly wrong. I have PF in a semi rural / anti urban setting. Anti indie but with a total insider knowledge. Patronising farmers and mechanics from your fucking artschool

Ironic Gas Station/ Car modding/ Farming Insurance t shirts et al

What's this important genre I am seeking? Not pigfuck?

Das Damen was a stretch, I think -- though Xgau's point was probably just that they had a lot of the same fans as pigfuck bands, which was probably true. And I think, as the genre name got slightly popularized among rock critics (doubt anybody else cared) for a couple years in the late '80s, bands like Scratch Acid (Texas college town), Butthole Surfers (Texas college town), Killdozer (Wisconsin collge town), and Big Black (Illinois big city even if the singer moved there from Montana) are the kind of bands it would have referred to, along with lots of bands from the Lower East Side (Sonic Youth, Swans, Pussy Galore, White Zombie, Live Skull, Big Stick, Rat At Rat R.) So, no, not really rural, either. Like most genre names, though, pigfuck's meaning probably changed and evolved over time. (When was it revived? Just a few years ago, right? Basically, around the time this thread was first started? Seems like over a decade went by when nobody used it at all.)

pigfuck is a feeling

I don't remember anyone using it in the first place, it was called post-hardcore in the UK if it was called anything. Or "Arsequake" (no-one apart from a couple of MM journos ever actually used that one though tbh).

xpost

The mention of Lubricated Goat brought a couple of other bands to mind that may or may not rise to pigfuck level. I speak of King Snake Roost & Feedtime, who's 'Shovel' LP was one of my faves of the '80s. Perhaps one could even stretch the pigfuck [a phrase I'd never have guessed I would type] definition to fit Thug.

(e_3) speaks with great wisdom. It really IS a feeling. (e_3) is Pigfuck Buddha.

speaking of georgia bands, one unsung pigfuck mover & shaker was laura carter of the bar-b-q killers and jack*o*nuts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVV9P-MWNZA

there's even a pig in this video!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjQRmRF8a2w

o thanks improvspirit... here's a zenlike post I made on that other thread

Big Stick - big wigs will never be pigfuck
Feedtime - borderline, too much rock, not enough scuzz
Phantom Tollbooth - too indie
Amor Fati - see above
Head of David - yes yes yes
Young Gods - respected but not accepted
Einsturzende Neubauten - kissing cousin
Prong - too many riffs, not enough scuzz, if ted parsons wasn't their drummer they wouldn't even be on this list
The Accused - hardcore
The Scientists - early stuff no, but once kim salmon decided he was going to out cave nick cave circa human jukebox, yes
Couch Flambeau - you can't be pigfuck with a french word in your band name
Rancid Vat - harcore
Antiseen - hardcore

and y'all forgot blacksnakes, king snake roost, of cabbages & kings, dig dat hole

Or "Arsequake" (no-one apart from a couple of MM journos ever actually used that one though tbh).

And it's possible no one apart from a couple Village Voice journos ever actually used "pigfuck". (I'd be curious if anybody knows any instances of it showing up in other publications in the late '80s. Though maybe a couple bands may've complained about being called that, in interviews.)

"When was it revived? Just a few years ago, right? Basically, around the time this thread was first started? Seems like over a decade went by when nobody used it at all.)"

i started noticing all the revival bands around 2005/6 (and there was a decibel review in 2006 that brought up the old stuff in a review of new stuff)

the nu-pigfuck

I like the distinction somebody made on the other best pigfuck thread about how euro-noise groups like einsturzende couldn't be considered pigfuck because they didn't want to be american (which is why b party is considered pigfuck)

other second tier players that haven't been mentioned maybe

the honeymoon killers (pg side project)
drunktank
blue (they were from philly, awesome + totally unsung, I think ian digs them too)
the bastards

Touch&Go's 1986 comp God's Favorite Dog is like the pigfuck Old Testament: Butthole Surfers, Big Black, Scratch Acid, Killdozer, Happy Flowers & Hose (lol Hose).

we ended up calling all this stuff 'grunge' before Grunge came along. didn't hear 'pigfuck' until the Spin Alt Record Guide or somewhere in the 90s

i thought pigfuck was perfect way back when cuz killdozer always reminded me of the hicks in deliverance. that whole jordan, minnesota/crazy dan/nick cave sothern gothic thing. even killdozer's song about flannery o'connor! faux redneck stuff.

I just did a Google Books search for the word in Spin, and I don't know how conclusive these results are, but the earliest issue showing up with it in it are both from 1996, a Girls Against Boys review by Eric Weisbard: "...signing to Chicago's Touch and Go (bastion of artcore guitars and post-Big Black 'pigfuck impurism)...," and a Jeff Salamon review of Frank Blank that ends with the word, though I'm not sure that one even has anything to do with the genre at all.

http://books.google.com/books?id=JheoECFjDqMC&pg=PA106&dq=pigfuck&rview=1&cd=15#v=onepage&q=pigfuck&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=td2yO_T3DPEC&pg=PA89&dq=pigfuck&rview=1&cd=26#v=onepage&q=pigfuck&f=false

pigfuck is like poetry, I know it when I see it.

and I'd argue that big black were pigfuck because they possessed the ugly american spirit. although they were sonically influenced by precision tech-mech stuff like gang of four and killing joke, their lyrical content, image, and general stance was verrry pigfuckian. midwestern, hog killer to the world attitude. fascinated with the dark side of macho, with blood + seediness, a tabloid journalist eye. and if you don't think albini appreciated boogie then you never heard rapeman's cover of zz top's "just got paid".

grunge, sludge, yeah all those terms were in play too

and as usual scott otm

xxxp

xp And yeah, the word gets a mention in Spin Alternative Guide too, from 1995, Ivan Kreilkamp writing about Big Black: "Racer X...was one of the records that inspired Robert Christgau to coin a new genre term, 'pigfuck,' to describe the luridly transgressive stance of a group of like-minded independent guitar bands including Big Black, early Sonic Youth, the Butthole Surfers, and Pussy Galore."

Early use of the word grunge to describe what we are basically calling pigfuck :

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_t6Gs_TbZqnY/Rj3QITuD4oI/AAAAAAAAALk/_A3IptEQRc8/s320/gods+of+grunge+cover.jpg

"Grunge" had been in use to describe loud dirty rock all the way back to the '70s, though.

That Google book search is showing "pigfuck" once in The Wire in 2001, too, referring to the Butthole Surfers. But after those couple '95/'96 usages, it pretty much disappears in all the publications that are being searched (not just Spin but CMJ, etc.) until 2005 or so.

you can call them noiserock, but everyone who doesn't have it still needs to pick up that awesome grong grong reissue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D2nzNrFNv4

Wow! I was considering mentioning Art Phag! I have that hand-painted record they did & it STILL smells like paint...

Thanks for the BBQ Killers mention! They were amazing. Laura was an excellent, WAY over-the-top frontperson.

I have PF in a semi rural / anti urban setting. Anti indie but with a total insider knowledge. Patronising farmers and mechanics from your fucking artschool

― Fer Jessie the Drunk Dutch Mountain Ark (Mobbed Up Ping Pong Psychos)

i thought pigfuck was perfect way back when cuz killdozer always reminded me of the hicks in deliverance. that whole jordan, minnesota/crazy dan/nick cave sothern gothic thing. even killdozer's song about flannery o'connor! faux redneck stuff.

― scott seward

big black were pigfuck because they possessed the ugly american spirit. although they were sonically influenced by precision tech-mech stuff like gang of four and killing joke, their lyrical content, image, and general stance was verrry pigfuckian. midwestern, hog killer to the world attitude. fascinated with the dark side of macho, with blood + seediness, a tabloid journalist eye.

― (e_3) (Edward III)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVKW3pjcI_g

Where is the love for Bastard Kestrel?

UK pigfuck was a whole different ballgame, if it even existed. Head Of David seemed to take most of their lyrical inspiration from the US (second hand refractions of Big Black et al really), who else was there? Silverfish?

Fifty Tons Of Black Terror (if they weren't too late in the game)?

Or maybe some of the bands mentioned on this thread?:

Bogshed - kings of swing: discuss

Yeah Silverfish for sure. Also maybe some of the other Wiija/lurch stuff eg Terminal Cheesecake, Headcleaner...

The Janitors, Meat Whiplash, Slaughter Joe? (Not sure about those last two, who at least have pigfuckish names, but the Janitors were definitely doing the yokels getting murdered the backwoods schtick.)

Headbutt, Pitchfork Skyscraper, Sun Carriage...these bands always used to support far superior American bands in London in the early 90s.

i was fond of the first couple silverfish things. still feel like i need to dig deeper into australia's 80's noiserock stuff. been listening to grong grong and x and feedtime so much this year.

this is kinda interesting, even if it isn't all pigfuck/noiserock stuff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhfYab0VvcA

"OzObscurist — September 01, 2009 — 80s Australia had a very active scuzzy guitar proto-grunge-thing, but due to cultural cringe and general apathy, has mostly been given away, and in need of restoration. Many who were there consider grunge (both the word's application to music and the sound itself) an Australian invention. This has currency for several reasons. Legendary Oz bands like Box of Fish and Beasts of Bourbon used "grunge" as early as 83, and Mark Arm-founder of Mudhoney and oft credited as the first to (self-)describe music as grunge-, acknowledged bands like "King Snake Roost, The Scientists, Salamander Jim, and Beasts of Bourbon" as using it first, or atleast loosely part of a scene in which the word was used. These Oz groups, among others, are also touted as major influences by the Seattle grungers, and were supported by labels like AmRep and Sub Pop in the face of the wider Oz music industry's neglect."

Also Jacob's Mouse iirc? xp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q65koj0fnA

^ Scott, do you know these guys?

still like chuck's "sasquatch rock" better than "grunge".

don't know fungus brains. will listen!

oh and that oz youtube thing is this:

1. Grong Grong - "Poor Herb"
2. The Poofters - "Wipe Out Yoor Whole Family"
3. Bushpig - "Rorting About"
4. No More Bandicoots - "Baby Botswana"

Fungus Brains were an offshoot of Dugald Mackenzie's Sick Things so part of the same Melbourne thing as Venom P Stinger.

So what was the relationship between those Oz bands and all the post-Birdman quasi-Detroit ones (Celibate Rifles, Lime Spiders, Died Pretty, New Christs, etc.)? Were they two different scenes? I definitely associated the Scientists with those bands at the time, and probably Feedtime too, but I was in Michigan. (Also, the Scientists went through so many changes in their sound, from post-Birthday Party psychobilly to way lighter powerpop, it was hard to figure out where they belonged.)

And again, people like Lester Bangs used "grunge" pretty often in Creem in the '70s (I used it in a Voice review of the Ramones' Too Tough To Die in '84, and I wasn't being original.) So it's not that weird that a bunch of bands would claim it in '83. (Though yeah, when I first heard Skin Yard/Melvins/Green River/U-Men etc. in '86 or so, I was calling that Seattle stuff Bigfoot Rock.)

Well, come to think of it, I guess it would make sense that Australia would have both a post-Radio Birdman scene and a post-Birthday Party scene. Though I'm betting they crossed paths a lot. (Unless, say, one was limited to Sydney and the other to Melbourne, or something.)

Trying to think who the points of connection would be, but it beats me. There's definitely a difference in stuff like the Celibate Rifles (non-pigfuck) and the Cosmic Psychos (uber-pigfuck) though.

grong grong were heavily influenced by the birthday party and the australian x. and american bands like flipper. i think there really were different camps. though probably everyone liked, you know, the stooges and stuff. mc5.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wE5i4chtos

^ actually maybe they're not scuzzy enough but has there been a more pigfuck video? (nsfw btw)

I'm glad someone fondly remembers Silverfish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhxiewNTAEI

blue (they were from philly, awesome + totally unsung, I think ian digs them too)

― (e_3) (Edward III)

awesome band! picked up a copy of their solid state lp a while back. singer's got a weird, nasally voice, reminiscent of reverb motherfuckers guy (and steel pole bath tub guy), but nerdier and sometimes quite annoying. paint peeling guitar noise redeems everything, though. woozy druggy and not consistently harsh/fucked-up enough to really square w pigfuck in my book, but def worth a listen. features an epic, super psychedelic cover of brian wilson's "baby let your hair grow long".

also u-men

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWxS48yOwfI&feature=related

bad vid, but they're not well documented

yeah, love blue. I've got two of the demo tapes they released in the early 90s. I should dig 'em out and upload, here's a track from one for the curious.

http://www.mediafire.com/?122dygmyqg0

fungus brains getting reissued on load records is what I heard

That is a fine act of human kindness