I'm sorry but Paul Simon is so overrated

I love when Aretha sits down at the piano.

If I were Rick Rubin I'd beg Aretha to record a piano and vocal album.

Can someone please explain to me where the artistry is in One Trick Pony

I have to say, from the original post, Simon at his power-in-the-formula best is on display in "Late in the Evening" - who the fuck else could pull of "smoke myself a J" there? not Leonard Cohen, to be fair!

pull off

can't even fuckin type for shit any more, it sucks

whereas Simon specializes in breezy wasn't-this-always-just-sitting-right-there? melodies, enviably effortless feel

this is kinda what i was driving at i guess

how do i shot artistry

This was Simon's response to that Los Lobos interview:

This Los Lobos thing has come up before, so I wanted to talk to you direct. They said all this stuff to Songtalk magazine in the States, and I’ve replied to it all in an interview that hasn’t run yet, but its all there. There was a bad atmosphere at those sessions (with Los Lobos on Graceland) from the start; I don’t know what it is with them. The whole deal for them working on Graceland was all worked out beforehand between Los Lobos and Lenny Warnoker (Managing Director at Warners USA) and there were no complaints at the time. It was made clear from the outset that we didn’t have a song. There was no song. It was being written from scratch. I was – and still am – a fan of the band. What I really love is the accordion sound. So we started jamming in the rehearsal room and nothing was really coming together, and so I said do you have any ideas we can work on. What I wanted for the Graceland track was like a generic Los Lobos dikka-de-dikka guitar sound. And so we came up with something around a riff. They never once said that this guitar line is one of ours and we don’t want you to have it. So we worked on recording this track for about three days, which is a long time to work on one track. I had to teach David Hildegger how to sing this song! And then David Hildegger came up to me and said “we’re not happy with this track. We wanna do a ballad”. But I couldn’t have that. At that time it was the last track of the whole album – eventually we did one more – and I just said at this stage I don’t care whether the album comes out without Los Lobos on it. I was getting really tired of it – I don’t want to get into a public slanging match over this, but this thing keeps coming up.

“So we finished the recordings. And three months passed, and there was no mention of “joint writing”. The album came out and we heard nothing. Then six months passed and Graceland had become a hit and the first thing I heard about the problem was when my manager got a lawyer’s letter. I was shocked. They sent this thing to my manager, not me. If there was a problem they could have contacted me direct, they’ve got my home number, we talked a lot. If you ask me it was a lawyer’s idea. You know, “the records a hit, and there’s $100,000 in it”. They had nine months from the recordings to talk to me about all this, but I heard nothing. And its still not sorted out because they still keep bringing it up – I heard they’d done this interview for you. I don’t want to get into a public slanging match with them, because I really like their music.”

i always hate it when ppl have to bag on someone who is awesome do defend someone else who is awesome.

as said by others, never really occured to me to compare cohen and simon tbh

i mean simon's strength isnt in the words-qua-words, though he's obviously got a gift for them, its the performance; i mean if you put leonard cohens words written down next to paul simons words written down cohen probably comes across as the stronger poet. but the difference between a song like story of isaac and a song like graceland--to me--is that cohen is, like, singing a poem over some guitar--if i'm being charitable i can say that at least he's making an attempt to create an engagement between the content & sound of the lyrics and the action of the music--but in "graceland" all these things exist together, playing off one another, changing the force and meaning of each component. and yet it comes across as totally seamless, as though it's off the top of simon's head.

i actually think you sort of secretly acknowledge this when you talk about the things that simon is good at. i dont know, i guess i am not really doing a "whole career" thing here, though lets not forget that simon was in his 20s throughout the S&G years and cohen didnt move to NYC till he was in his 30s. also its like "hi leonard could you write about something besides god for, like, once. no, besides sex too."

Simon and Byrne would be the more obvious comparison

i think only insulting thing anyone said about leonard cohen on this thread is when i called him "boring old leonard cohen." which i didnt even mean!

you called him stupid

The way Simon and Los Lobos remember the events is close enough that I still side with Simon if forced to pick one.

i am just surprised that everyone took me so seriously. i guess this is the first ILM thread i have engaged with in a while. sorry guys, leonard cohen rules.

i didn't take you srsly, srsly

David Hildegger

max to me this is just fun is all! I was weirded out when you were like comin politics-thread style, the dialectic fire of music discussion is a blast to me, I want more ppl comin all PAUL SIMON OWNS style that is fun imo and is an opportunity to really explore my thoughts about both more. anyway what I was gonna say:

i actually think you sort of secretly acknowledge this when you talk about the things that simon is good at.

no secret at all! you said initially

also simon is a better lyricist than stupid ol leonard cohen

which you then amended w/ there are very few people who can write words to music (and perform them) better than paul simon can which is true, but Simon's stuff ventures into it-works-best-if-you-hear-it territory - which - I lean both ways tbh, sometimes I think that's where the real deal is, where it's only truly great if it only works in that one moment when the words are at play in the air...because that's the original nature of the art, heard-not-read, for people who listen not people who're reading...and then other times I'm like, no that's bullshit, truly great lyricists work on paper and in-vivo and it doesn't make a damn bit of difference, you can rip it free from its context and it's still tuff as fuck. And while Simon seems to understand song formalism better, there's no question that metrically Cohen runs him ragged - Cohen's actual-poetry gift is just like whoa, his "numbers" in the old sense are just godlike

haha i wrote the bit about writing words to music to make it clear that by "lyricist" i meant something different than "word arranger"

yeah i think max yr right tho,

i see cohen as a poet first, whereas simon is master of american pop songwriting and fundamentally to me a MUSICIAN...cohen is essentially a non-musician who, by way of having such an incredibly amazing sense of aesthetics (and a simple, but really canny way with melody) was able to put himself in situations where his words and the musical setting came together to form something really special..and really singular IMO...

but i mean if you're talking like who is the most talented musically, there's no question...simon can write so much broader in terms of idiom and obv whether it was folk or orchestral pop or ersatz african or 70s FM rock or whatever it was, he knows how to mix with it and is good enough a musician and songwriter and performer to to it.

then other times I'm like, no that's bullshit, truly great lyricists work on paper and in-vivo and it doesn't make a damn bit of difference, you can rip it free from its context and it's still tuff as fuck.

That's the thing: I have no interest in ripping lyrics free from their original context.

David Hildegger

that said, i think simon was at his best when he had a great collaborative partner like art garfunkel or chevy chase

.cohen is essentially a non-musician who, by way of having such an incredibly amazing sense of aesthetics (and a simple, but really canny way with melody) was able to put himself in situations where his words and the musical setting came together to form something really special.

btw this is how I regard Robert Forster and Bowie too.

btw i agree that "50 ways to leave yr lover" is really corny but if you ever wanted a version that just had that mellow-as-hell rainy-day opening and those sick steve gadd drums here it is:

http://soundcloud.com/aordisco/50-ways-to-leave-your-lover-pollyns-re-edit-remix-paul-simon

haha i wrote the bit about writing words to music to make it clear that by "lyricist" i meant something different than "word arranger"

well, but cohen's stuff are lyrics. because poetry is actually just song lyrics written down - which cohen really seems to get, this seems like a big part of what he's doing. it's not just poetry set to music; it takes flight in music; but it survives better on paper than simon's imo. a somewhat meaningless distinction - ghostface is a genius but I'm not about to sit down and read "nutmeg," it has to be heard to be grasped - and cohen also writes poetry; it's quite different from his lyrics. it's just that simon's tradition is this specifically American words-and-melody thing and cohen's is really more medieval-troubadour stuff.

(this btw is where we venture very deeply into my-own-personal-what-I-value stuff - I've always preferred stuff that can be presented either way & still slay, despite my antipathy toward printing lyrics on a sleeve)

i think asking that words be able to be received in two different contexts is kind of placing demands on the art that it doesnt deserve

tbf i dont think he's placing demands, just pointing out that cohen's stuff endures the contextual shift and simon's basically doesn't

bowie is probably a much better comparison than cohen not that i know much about cohen.

i like simon more than bowie though like a lot more

yeah i thought the bowie comparison was p apt

i think asking that words be able to be received in two different contexts is kind of placing demands on the art that it doesnt deserve

yeah I mean I vacillate deeply on this stuff. me on tuesday will tell me on sunday that sunday me was full of shit. aerosmith albums don't have lyric sheets even though it would probably help our cause a lot but I don't care, because I believe strongly that the place to experience the lyrics is in the song: that's where they live. but when we're talking about how good they are, then I feel like it's fair to start putting some heavy demands on them, testing them. "suzanne" is a mellow jam to hear and float along to, you don't have to go all deep w/it -- but look at it on paper -- damn -- still good -- you know? but as I say, I mean, I will be debating w/myself about this issue on the day they lower me into the ground and some asshole plays "me & julio" at the funeral & laffs because I am too dead to shake my fist

Paul Simon is so much a better lyricist than Bowie it's not even funny, even though I'd rather listen to Bowie any day of the week

what I omitted from my original Bowie post is that obviously so much else matters while listening to Bowie: presentation for one.

Bowie is best appreciated when young.

would 'good lyrics' even fit bowie's aesthetic?

no!

just imagining the memorial service, all solemn readings of 'dude looks like a lady'

good lyrics matter for Bowie insofar as they advance the game he's playing on that particular album

Don't know if it's mentioned upthread, but it's BS that Simon "just discovered" any sort of global music pre-Graceland. I mean, the very first song on his very first album was a reggae song recorded in Jamaica with Jimmy Cliff's band. That's pre-Catch a Fire, for sure, and about as early as non-Jamaican reggae gets. And plenty of his other records are peppered with various Latin and nu-Yorican rhythms. He found inspiration where he found it.

yep

i am just surprised that everyone took me so seriously. i guess this is the first ILM thread i have engaged with in a while. sorry guys, leonard cohen rules.

I was really hoping you were being serious!

Also, Simon is def. "exploring" African music on "Graceland." That he links zydeco back to African jive, let alone by way of Los Lobos' Mexico, or implicitly connects the Ladysmith a cappella stuff to the doo wop of his youth shows he's very aware of the ongoing African cultural diaspora and how far its music has reached. There's a quote from the Classic Albums series from guitarist Ray Phiri: "We were influenced by American music. American music was for us … it was like sharing information. So it was a two-way traffic. We used Paul as much as Paul used us.”

there was no mention of “joint writing”.

That's a helluva rationalization. "Hey, Los Lobos didn't tell me they wrote that music, so I just assumed I did!"

Also, that song has probably the worst drum sound of the 80s.

that said, i think simon was at his best when he had a great collaborative partner like art garfunkel or chevy chase

― om nom nom nnamdi asomugha (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, August 7, 2011 3:00 PM (59 minutes ago) Bookmark

lol

Don't forget Steve Martin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_002KDRoKM

lmao that video is incredible

I love Paul Simon and can't imagine wanting to put him down.

It's petty that people squabbled over some old song that was OK.

The only thing that does put me off PS is that he sings quite a lot about god and religiosity. These are not my kind of thing.

But I suppose or imagine that believing in those things makes PS feel happier.

I love 2004.

i like steve martin's punchy hand gesture to accompany "proust"

do you like "the obvious child," pf?

obviously