To what degree will you support musicians who (openly, possibly or jokingly) include racist, sexist, homophobic, or bigoted messages in their music, or who privately hold such beliefs?

Whiney I think you missed the NRO memo:

NRO's The Corner: Rolling Bile, Spit, and Gnash Thread

If I find out someone – even someone I like – has said some ignorant shit, it kind of ruins them for me forever, unless they make some big to-do about recanting (I can't think of any examples of anyone who has made a big fussy apology though).

― Looking Man (Abbbottt), Monday, March 21, 2011 10:11 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

The only big fussy apology I can think of is Adam Horovitz': "I would like to... formally apologize to the entire gay and lesbian community for the shitty and ignorant things we said on our first record. There are no excuses. But time has healed our stupidity.... We have learned and sincerely changed since the '80s.... We hope that you'll accept this long overdue apology."

re: cale that looks like a fairly obvious reading to me too, tho' the narrator =/= cale get-out is clearer with him than most - he writes in character lots, certainly on P 1919. Isn't Half Past France a Nazi Soldier point-of-view song?

"a) attacking disco, or other rhythm based music, for being brainless, tuneless, cynical or whatever has nothing to do with racism and cannot possibly by seen as racism unless said attack explicitely says that "I hate nigger music because I hate niggers" or something like that."

did you ever take a sociology class and learn how institutionalized racism works, because you sound like a 15 year old libertarian kid right now

― maher shalal smash paz (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 10:10 AM (43 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

This is fucking jive crap. Who'se worse, the 15 year old libertarian or the college freshman dorm philosipher majoring in "sociology". Tough call.

xpost I almost feel bad for setting off the whole Cale derail but I'm glad that it's not just me who thinks that narrative POV is open to interpretation. Liberal-baiting + general 70s weirdness irt racial politics means it's not impossible for Cale to have had some sympathy with Powell's fall without actually being a racist (which Cale obv isn't).

I was thinking about this the other day - I listened to Tyler the Creator's "Bastard" for the first time (hadn't heard any Odd Future stuff, wanted to see what the hype is about) and felt really kind of sad and taken aback at all the "faggot" lines in particular. I can chalk up a lot of other untoward lyrics to poetic license and storytelling and bravado and jokes, but using the word "faggot" feels much more serious disappointing to me.

But I love Death Certificate despite it's problems, as well as other older hip-hop stuff as I don't keep up with current music to anywhere near the degree that I know and love stuff from 15 years ago.

I think a lot of it is my expectations that young people from a huge city in 2011 should be past this kind of thing by now. For some reason I could understand it 20 years ago but I feel like the acceptance of homosexuality has changed so dramatically that to unironically use the word faggot now is beyond what I'm willing to tolerate in what I listen to.

"Who'se worse, the 15 year old libertarian or the college freshman dorm philosipher majoring in "sociology"."

The 15 year old libertarian. The college freshman dorm philosopher will eventually grow up.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_0viO-Dm52sM/RwkAgdrtMUI/AAAAAAAADM8/WPcm4ePT9mk/s320/cale_nico_by_billy_name_02blog+left.jpg

John Cale (left) and Nico, sharing a racist joke

lol

Nico on the other hand...

I wanted to say something on this thread but somehow it became all kinds of off-putting.

really wish, to be really real about it, that white people who get all "it's just words! I'm quoting somebody!" etc on this shit would actually read this sentence and meditate on it a while and understand that their choice to deploy this kind of language has the effect of excluding people from discussions & sucks & is dumb. cause you know what would make this discussion more productive? The participation of the very people who are excluded when racist or sexist language is deployed by persons of privilege.

maybe get a tattoo of DJP's post guys idk, tattoos are nice, think about it

"a) attacking disco, or other rhythm based music, for being brainless, tuneless, cynical or whatever has nothing to do with racism and cannot possibly by seen as racism unless said attack explicitely says that "I hate nigger music because I hate niggers" or something like that."

did you ever take a sociology class and learn how institutionalized racism works, because you sound like a 15 year old libertarian kid right now

― maher shalal smash paz (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 10:10 AM (43 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

This is fucking jive crap. Who'se worse, the 15 year old libertarian or the college freshman dorm philosipher majoring in "sociology". Tough call.

― Thraft of Cleveland (Bill Magill), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 10:55 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Lol @ "jive." It doesn't take a dorm philospher to realize that "I don't hate black people, I just hate their most visible avenues of expression; also I'm going to use the n-word to make my point" is total fucking bullshit

I'd like to know whether Rep. John Lewis, who almost died in the Selma to Montgomery marches, and is possibly the greatest living icon of the civil rights movement, likes either rap or disco. I think i may write his office and ask him.

The idea that if somebody doesnt like disco or rap makes them racist is so stupid, it's really not worth discussing.

We've covered all this ground before, vis a vis the original poster, this is good way to annoy a mod and have them lock the thread

If I find out someone – even someone I like – has said some ignorant shit, it kind of ruins them for me forever, unless they make some big to-do about recanting (I can't think of any examples of anyone who has made a big fussy apology though).

― Looking Man (Abbbottt), Monday, March 21, 2011 10:11 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

The only big fussy apology I can think of is Adam Horovitz': "I would like to... formally apologize to the entire gay and lesbian community for the shitty and ignorant things we said on our first record. There are no excuses. But time has healed our stupidity.... We have learned and sincerely changed since the '80s.... We hope that you'll accept this long overdue apology."

― Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Tuesday, March 22, 2011 9:22 AM (54 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i think this was a real awesome thing that horovitz did, and really made me feel good about him. i don't think it's "fussy" to own up to shit you did, at all. and let people know that you've changed.

promised myself I wasn't going to participate in this thread & should be doing laundry but "attacking disco, or other rhythm based music, for being brainless, tuneless, cynical" (your earlier phrasing, Bill) is a little different from "not liking" (your later revision). Like, if you claim to like music but can listen to disco and say it's "brainless, tuneless" congrats you are HIGHLY QUESTIONABLE because musicianship on the level of Chic can be a lot of things - you could attack is at sterile, obsessed by tecnique, buncha looks you could come at it with" - but "brainless, tuneless"? nope, something else going on w/you if that's yr claim, because only somebody who'd never actually heard music and/or knew nothing about it would say that about Chic

"it's just my opinion that that music's tuneless"! congrats on not knowing what "tune" means

I'm not even saying that hating disco/rap is inherently racist, I'm saying it's ignorant to deny that there's many shades of racism beyond explicit "I hate black ppl" shit that may be a cause of a lot of ppl's rap/disco hate. ymmv

We've covered all this ground before, vis a vis the original poster, this is good way to annoy a mod and have them lock the thread

― Tom D (Tom D.), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 15:18 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

um, happy to be corrected otherwise but I can't think of a thread that asks the question (in EXCITING POLL FORM or otherwise) that's being put fwd here

aerosmith just said what I was going to say, only better. Like, there are nontrivial differences between ME NO LIKE and "rhythm based music [is] brainless, tuneless, cynical." See if you can suss out what some of them might be, Bill Magill!

I mean, if you can't see how JUST FOR EXAMPLE, the late-70s anti-disco attitudes that led to, among other things, the disastrous Detroit Tigers' "Disco Demolition Night" was tied up in some nasty anti-gay and anti-black shit, you might be . . . what's the phrase? . . . a fucking retard.

Wait did I miss something, why's everyone piling on Bill Magill? It was Geir who said that?

somebody who'd never actually heard music and/or knew nothing about it

Geir in a nutshell amirite

so glad this has turned into a geir thread now *sigh* I'm outta here

xp The idea that if somebody doesnt like disco or rap makes them racist is so stupid, it's really not worth discussing.

― Thraft of Cleveland (Bill Magill), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 11:16 AM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark

I'm sorry Phil D., you are one of my favorite posters, but the "ME NO LIKE" phrase kinda makes me want to pluck out my eyes.

you're losing them Phil D., better bring out the flapping dickie

http://thumbnails.hulu.com/10/369/35504_384x288_generated__glIPdY439k6p11iRAHReWA.jpg

"attacking disco, or other rhythm based music, for being brainless, tuneless, cynical" (your earlier phrasing, Bill)

I never said this, Aerosmith. Plus I dont feel that way at all. I was quoting another poster.

promised myself I wasn't going to participate in this thread & should be doing laundry but "attacking disco, or other rhythm based music, for being brainless, tuneless, cynical" (your earlier phrasing, Bill) is a little different from "not liking" (your later revision). Like, if you claim to like music but can listen to disco and say it's "brainless, tuneless" congrats you are HIGHLY QUESTIONABLE because musicianship on the level of Chic can be a lot of things - you could attack is at sterile, obsessed by tecnique, buncha looks you could come at it with" - but "brainless, tuneless"? nope, something else going on w/you if that's yr claim, because only somebody who'd never actually heard music and/or knew nothing about it would say that about Chic

not at all a bad point, but the "earlier phrasing" attributed to Bill here was actually said by Geir, and beating him up for calling disco "brainless/tuneless/cynical" when he actually didn't (& instead merely objecting to being called 'racist bcz he doesn't like disco) and then doing a grandstanding dogpile on him is probably not conducive to the kind of reasoned and thoughtful discussion that this thread deserves...I've sb'd Geir for the n-bomb cuz it really wasn't called for: you were absolutely right in an earlier post on some other thread about people round here just jumping at the bit to start using that word, and it's about time it stopped, and no, racism threads are not a good excuse...

xp to Bill -- alright nevermind, and sorry for saying that inferring that you don't like disco...

aerosmith just said what I was going to say, only better. Like, there are nontrivial differences between ME NO LIKE and "rhythm based music is brainless, tuneless, cynical." See if you can suss out what some of them might be, Bill Magill!

― Anti-mist K-Lo (Phil D.), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 11:27 AM (30 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
I mean, if you can't see how JUST FOR EXAMPLE, the late-70s anti-disco attitudes that led to, among other things, the disastrous Detroit Tigers' "Disco Demolition Night" was tied up in some nasty anti-gay and anti-black shit, you might be . . . what's the phrase? . . . a fucking retard.

― Anti-mist K-Lo (Phil D.), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 11:29 AM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

It was the Chicago White Sox, and to reiterate, I never said that. Learn to read.

xp saying that

No problem Drugs.

No, what you said was that calling someone racist because they don't like disco is stupid. When whether people like disco was not the issue at all. (As opposed to categorically dismissing its musicality and craft, and then ignoring the racial implications of that.)

So I'd be real, real careful about dinging people's reading skills here.

No, you clearly cant read, you stupid fuck.

"As opposed to categorically dismissing its musicality and craft, and then ignoring the racial implications of that"

^I never said or implied this dumbass.

Plus learn the difference between the Tigers and the White Sox, you stupid shit.

Wow. Just wow. You are really, really, really stupid. Like, if I had known in advance I was dealing with a special-needs kid I would've backed off of "fucking retard," but now it's out there and we kinda have to deal with it.

Leave the serious discussions to the adults, chief.

We've covered all this ground before, vis a vis the original poster, this is good way to annoy a mod and have them lock the thread

No, what I mean by the original poster is the The Anti Disco Poster (who shall remain nameless), we've talked about him far too much before

Plus learn the difference between the Tigers and the White Sox, you stupid shit.

― Thraft of Cleveland (Bill Magill), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 11:07 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

don't bother, they are basically just there because we need some teams to place 2nd and 3rd in the central, go twins!

Leave the serious discussions to the adults, chief.

― Thraft of Cleveland (Bill Magill), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 11:09 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yo dogg, unless you are a gym teacher you can't call ppl chief

Stop this now.

xposts.

"As opposed to categorically dismissing its musicality and craft, and then ignoring the racial implications of that"

^I never said or implied this dumbass.

No, Bill, someone else said or implied it, and you reduced it to "not liking disco," assuming that nobody would notice the elision, I guess? And now you're getting your back up because . . .? <------------- INSERT ANSWER HERE FOR THE SLOW KIDS

xp Oooh, "chief." Can "pal," "buddy" and/or "sport" be far behind? STAY TUNED.

I'd like to take this opportunity to lobby for the reinstatement of the metal board

Hey Phil D., you happen to live anywhere near NYC? you wanna meet up for a chat?

would you guys fucking kiss already

ffs

You imply that I'm racist (while using "retarded" as an insult), then you should pay.

I blame John Cale for this

I blame Enoch Powell

I blame the internet.