should i give the grateful dead a chance?

Do not give the Grateful Dead a chance. I have given the Grateful Dead several chances, and they continue to bore me solid. Friends say "Oh, you're into 60s garage, listen to their first album..." nope, sorry, it's still uninspired hippie stoner jams. Friends say "Oh, you like spacerock, listen to this or that experimental jam album..." nope, sorry, it's still uninspired hippie stoner jam drivel. Friends say "Oh, you have to listen to it on acid to get it." I listened to it on acid. It only stretched the INTERMINABLE boredom to the breaking point where it was a relief to sit and listen to radio static afterwards.

I think that Deadheadism is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. If you have it, you will like them. If you do not have it, then no ammount of "Dude, no, you have to hear this most ultimate jam session that they did on this super-rare collectible live bootleg out-take from 1973..." in the world will ever convince you to find even a modicum of interest.

I know that calling a band "boring" is verboten on this forum. The Dead are not just boring, they are interminable, self indulgent, they noodle, they wibble, they do not drone in a transcendant manner, no they ANNIHILATE any sense of enjoyment of music to the point where I would rather listen to elevator music rather than the Dead. In fact, that is what they are. They are the elevator music of hippie stoner jam psychedelia.

Do not waste your time. Sing along with the hoover instead.

A: God this band are shit.

(Keith Richards tells that gag - which is a bit rich considering that 'Can You Hear Me Knocking' sounds just like the Dead...)

I think they're worth checking out rather than applying some knee jerk reaction. But obviously lots of people don't agree.

Did you even read my fucking post? This is not some knee jerk reaction. This is a carefully thought out aesthetic decision that I have reached after repeated exposure and more consideration that I would give to most bands who repeatedly bombarded me with shit.

Everything about the Grateful Dead is repulsive - the music (yes I *can* judge them on a minute or so), the fans, the mythology.... They're a crystallisation of everything I dislike in music.

The thing is, I love the IDEA of the Dead - the endless noodling jams, those moments of improvisation when they reach the mythical 'zone', the community of fans, all those bootlegs to tick off and collect, the Verlaine-esque sound of Garcia's gtr, the vast quantities of drugs etc etc.

But - their recs just never seem to live up to the rep - before I ever listened to them, I imagined they were like the most mega-cosmic freak out group of all time, but when I finally did spin a few of their albs all I got was wimpy country-lite w/ really terrible singing. They rarely seem to rock out in any meaningful way, their cover versions are just AWFUL (esp. the 'bluesy' Pigpen-led stuff) and Hunter's lyrics are hippy bilge.

Without wishing to sound too alt snooty, Ghost and esp. Acid Mothers Temple do the whole folk-psych rock jam thing w/ so much more passion, imagination and freaky fun.

No, I don't think I recall the Dead ever having extended sax solos in any of their songs.

You obviously never heard Branford Marsalis jam with them, then.

I knew when I saw this thread appear it would be full of the usual "the Dead are the worst band ever" stuff... they seem to be one of a small handful of bands it's ok to heap your worst insults on around here. So I'll do my usual and say yes "American Beauty" and "Workingman's Dead" are full of concise, well-written pop songs, their mid 70's LPs on their own label are amazing ("Blues for Allah" is my pick), and as great a guitarist as Tom Verlaine is, Garcia is better. He's a better vocalist, too. I know that for whatever reason the Dead are a band many people will just never permit themselves to like, so I expect to make no converts.

I think SY owe a lot to the dead in the way that they'd start a song and then they would use that as a basis for a jam and get back to the song.

The singing isn't to everyone's tastes but at a time when ppl are listening to Thom Yorke that isn't such a big problem.

For myself, they don't trouble my interest, and I can't say they will be anytime soon.

You obviously never heard Branford Marsalis jam with them, then.

Nope, and although I'm sure he's, uh, "funkier" than his brother, I can't imagine his jams with the Dead approach the instrumental break of "Can You Hear Me Knocking" (which was, after all, used by many a black "urban" radio station in the 1970s as promo music). Anyway, the point was that the claim that "Can You Hear Me Knocking" sounds like the Dead is way, way off-base.

''I think that Deadheadism is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. If you have it, you will like them. If you do not have it, then no ammount of "Dude, no, you have to hear this most ultimate jam session that they did on this super-rare collectible live bootleg out- take from 1973..." in the world will ever convince you to find even a modicum of interest.''

it's bollocks! any band will have it's fans and haters but to dismiss it as 'chemical imbalance' is bullshit. Plus the 'annihalate' line (see dave q's ans).

Personally, the only song of theirs that I can instantly recognize is "Touch Of Grey". I'm fine with that.

If you're still hell bent on checking out the Dead, I'd start with any of the Dick's Picks live releases from 1972 or earlier. Even then, listening to them are like trying to dig for gold in a mine that's been completely played out. There's a lot of shovelling involved for very little payoff.

How is the Grateful Dead any different?

There must just be a neurotransmitter that makes people like SHIT, that is the explanation.

I think that in addition to the dead's songs coming from the folk tradition of being shared with anyone who wants to sing them, Robert Hunter's lyrics are so damn good that they scanned as great American songbook pieces from the start. One of my favorite stories is of Hunter in the audience while Cumberland Blues was being played, beaming with pride at overhearing someone complain that the dead were making money off of recording & performing traditional Appalachian folk songs.

Hahah amazing. In the best way!

we used to kind of ridicule Weir, I guess that won't be funny anymore

No, it's still cool and a sign of affection, imo.

I bet heaven has a wide range of dorky shorts available

people forget how cool dorky shorts and white socks were in the early 80s

That's a really interesting post, Ned -- yeah, I see what you mean -- encouraging the growth of the spirit of the existing songs "to fill the air" the way they have, was a mission worthy of the effort that could instead have gone into making and promoting new stuff. I remember being a smart-ass new Grateful Dead fan at eleven or twelve years old, thinking that RatDog and Phil & Friends etc were boring / somehow offensive because they played Jerry songs. I held an "I don't wanna hear Bob sing Tennessee Jed!" attitude... but I've changed my mind over the decades, and your post reminds me of that. I think it's awesome that the survivors looked at Jerry's body of work, asked themselves, "So what happens with these?" and then eventually decided, "Well, we keep playing them." That wasn't the necessary decision -- they could've said, "Well no, we can't touch THOSE, they're sacrosanct. We'd get chewed out." I don't think Ratdog introduced Jerry songs into their sets until '97 or '98 iirc

That's a really interesting post, Ned

Thanks kindly, and yeah, that's what I was trying to drive at. I think keeping the songs alive that way along with the rest of their work, in whatever permutations existed, made sure that they could kept being brought back to people, especially those younger (like yourself) at the time of Garcia's death or born after it, as much as just searching for them on the Internet did, and helped, if this makes sense, socialize them further, make them something beyond any one person or creator. It's hardly a new phenomenon, but it's a striking example of it -- thinking about how the Sun Ra Orchestra has, in its particular way, done the same in turn thanks to Marshall Allen all these years -- but even more importantly by not continuing as 'the Grateful Dead,' they unlocked things more widely.

Oh and stepping back:

I love reading discussion of the band by smart people like Ned who don’t necessarily give a hoot about them.

Haha, thanks for the kind words. This is all prompting me to think my weekly Patreon entry will indeed be about them, inasmuch as I never really have formally written about them. (I'll say more about why I think Hunter is the most interesting one of the bunch to me in that piece.)

"what a beautiful, fragile gift it is to exist in this dimension with someone who let me see that the journey is worth taking on with an open heart the whole way through"

I’ve had friends over the years who were total deadheads, even to the extent of following them around. My one real exposure to them was through the John Oswald Grayfolded albums (Gray Fol Ded), “Transitive Axis” and “Mirror Ashes”, from 1995 and 1996, which superimposed multiple extended recordings of “Dark Star” and which really allowed me to see the band's otherworldly quality

Very good way of putting it for sure, it's my particular lodestone as well.

we used to kind of ridicule Weir, I guess that won't be funny anymore

I say it’s perfectly fine and funny to poke fun at the shorts, the pink guitar, the shrieks, etc. It’s all in good fun esp because we love what the guy did with his life.

Never Forget: what the hell is Bob Weir's prolem?

lol'd at this part of jarnow's pfork tribute:

folk obscurities like ...... “Me and My Uncle”

Kreutzmann's memorial:

https://www.facebook.com/BIllKreutzmann/posts/pfbid02pcK4mPsCATqLnrrL6F7kd49bASiPtbV9T3mBs4pA87Lgeih58TZ1NEBbJM9fSu5nl

And Stephen Thomas Erlewine on Weir:

https://sterlewine.substack.com/p/bob-weir-1947-2026-playing-in-the

Homecoming: Celebrating the life of Bobby Weir.

This Saturday, January 17, at 12:45 pm PT, join us at Civic Center Plaza in San Francisco for a free public gathering honoring Bobby, whose music, spirit, and humanity shaped generations. Together, we will pay tribute in the community and collective heartbeat that he created.

A short sacred stop on his homecoming journey, the gathering will center on gratitude, remembrance, and togetherness, along with special tributes to honor Bobby.

There will be a procession traveling three blocks down Market Street between 7th and 9th Streets at approximately 12:30 pm PT.

A hat tip on his way out, if you will…

Location:
Civic Center Plaza *Please enter through Fulton Plaza.
335 McAllister St
San Francisco, CA

This is not a concert, and there will be no live musical performances.

RSVP here: https://bit.ly/CelebratingTheLifeOfBobbyWeirRSVP

Well, I have to thank the discussion on this thread and beyond because I went deep:

https://www.patreon.com/posts/148298211

Thanks, will read---also, I want to check out more of xpost Hunter's post-Garcia songs----see "Collaborations" here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hunter_(lyricist)#:~:text=Robert%20C.%20Christie%20Hunter%20(born&text=Christie%20Hunter%20(born%20Robert%20Burns%3B,work%20with%20the%20Grateful%20Dead.

(Oh and my German cousin-in-law, at least as English-literate as US-born me, says his Rilke translations are excellent.)

Beautiful piece Ned. So many interesting little side trips to explore, flowing into a singular experience, like a dead show itself. You got me to check out the mst3k bit & the 80s twilight zone series theme, both of which I'd never known about, even as a semi-obsessive deadhead about your same age. After a few 90s brushes with the scene from outside the bus, I got deep into the live music archive when I settled into regular cubicle work in the early aughts. Thank you for sharing your unique and unifying perspective in these trying times.

Yer welcome -- the least I could do, glad you appreciated what I brought to the table.

A theme at Bobby's memorial today was that he dreamed of the dead's music enduring and evolving for 300 years.

I enjoyed that too, Ned! A good deep read.

dow, go for the Lauderdale stuff. Hunter and Jim wrote several albums together, in a few different styles -- and it's all good, my favorite being the bluegrass. Carolina Moonrise was my entry point. Headed for the Hills might do it too. I remember a summer when I listened to almost nothing but Black Roses.

Their collaboration started because Jim was working with Ralph Stanley, and gathered the courage to ask Hunter to contribute a few things. They hit it off from there.

A couple of the Hunter+Lauderdale+Stanley ones:

Deep Well of Sadness
Oh Soul!

Thanks, Ned and TheNuNuNu!

Lovely piece!

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/postscript/bob-weirs-feral-radiance

Thanks for that piece Ned, much appreciated to read a thoughtful take from someone standing outside the bus, watching it pass by. And, as noted, very cool diversions you included to those other pieces and side trips. Gave me a lot to think about.

You're most welcome (and dow and TheNuNuNu as well).

can't wait to read these, listening to the one Dead show I always listen to when I'm in the mood for them:Veneta 72/Sunshine Daydream, would recommend for the casuals like myself

question: where does the version of "Mexicali Blues" on "Skeletons In The Closet" come from? is it just the same as the version on Weir's "Ace" solo alb?

(this question spurred by listening to Veneta 72, thanx ums)

yep, it is the same

Ace being basically a defacto Dead album anyway

thx I was very confused for a sec

wondering if it was some lost 7" like the studio Dark Star

Pretty weird in hindsight to include Mexicali in a greatest hits comp

Yeah, it's the one song I reliably skip when listening to the Dead with other people.

Hunter mentioned somewhere that he was in a National Guard unit that entered Watts during the designated Riot or Riots. Wonder if he had a chance to really look at the Watts Towers and if he ever wrote about them.

I don't know if this has been shared here before, but this Mini Wall of Sound project is pretty cool:

https://www.instagram.com/mini_wall_of_sound/

was listening to the Ace episode of the Good Ol' Grateful Deadcast and someone referred to Bob Weir as the "Noam Chomsky of the band", which coming from the guy who sang "Mexicali Blues", is probably not the comparison he'd have wanted at the moment.

So I assume some of you here will appreciate this:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-bVoEIhmk6mOULmXjnrjv1RHmIzwzFuC?usp=drive_link

As described by Mr. Completely/brokensymmetry.art on Bluesky:

Grateful Dead (and friends)
Ace's Studio, Feb-Sept 1975
The Complete Circulating Collection

FLAC or MP3 download
398 audio files, ~26 hours of material & notes PDF

By me, @bourgwick.bsky.social, @jeremyerwin.bsky.social & John H of saveyourface.posthaven.com

And bourgwick aka Jesse Jarnow has added:

we sorted through the utter mess of circulating "blues for allah" tapes, triangulated correct-as-possible dates, re-tracked files with proper titles (including a bunch of songs unique to the sessions & a few unidentified pieces), weeded out many duplicates, & found lots of underloved deliciousness.

i've been digging into the 10-hour highlight reel lol. obviously for sickos, but some revelatory moments, heady jams, insights into the creative process, etc.

this is such a cool thing, not sure I need the whole 26 hours but I'm glad this exists. planning to dig into the highlight reel for sure.

yeah jarnow has put together playlists that let you hear the songs/jams develop in a pretty listener-friendly fashion, very cool

As I think we've mentioned upthread, xgau was good on the early East Coast shows (and passed some inside dope, like Garcia wanted to put Pig and Weir in a "sideband" for keeps. "It never did happen," because they couldn't afford it, didn't have the business model together for a while).
So now he's reposted his vintage Newsday dispatch re the 7/18/72 Joisey City show, replete w link to YouTube post of thee concert (though note what he says about the second set).
https://robertchristgau.substack.com/p/the-big-lookback-the-grateful-dead-865

https://www.powmag.net/p/a-little-deeper-than-usual-joan-didion

cool interview with the early band

yeah they practiced at the Helioport in Sausalito, where the seaplanes are currently parked... the building looks the same

https://gimg.wolfgangs.com/m/large/GAP0009-10-FP/grateful-dead-fine-art-print-1967.jpg

that's a cool photo, thanks for the link!

They say never miss a Sunday show and that was certainly true back on 12/14/80. What a show! Matt Kelly swings by to help even the "Little Red Rooster" hit right.

The first set has killer versions of "Bertha", "Althea", "Loser", "Bird Song" and "Passenger". But man, it's all about the second set that starts with an absolutely raging "Estimated Prophet". If you only have time for part of the show, absolutely dig into this meaty "Estimated > Wheel > Drums > Space > The Other One > Stella Blue" section. Flora Purim and Airto Moreira guest on the "Drums > Space" and really bring something special. Just one of those nights when everything clicked.

nice, bookmarked for later