Metallica - C or D?

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What's the verdict on these guys? Did they fuck it all up when they cut their hair? Was it Cliff Burton's death that finished them off? Were they rescued from mediocrity by Bob Rock? Do they just plain suck? Do they just plain rock?

― Andrew, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

I don't find Kill 'em All good at all, really. Ride The Lightning, Master of Puppets, and '...And Justice For All' are all brilliant in my eyes. Self-titled was okay, but you could see that they were definately getting older and less hardcore. (and thus less interesting, IMO)

Load and Reload are shit. Someone gave Kirk a wah-wah pedal and suddenly his soloing became a huge pile of wank.

S&M was cool, I thought, but didn't really add anything.

For the early: Classic. For the new: Dud.

― Andrew, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

sir, as with einstein's theories one's relative position is a vital part of any equation. if you're cruising the strip ready to pick up some chick for a gang rape session or working up the courage to fart in a confession box then the black album is required listening.

other than that they just plain suck.

― jarv, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

I think the "Can you judge a band by their fans?" question really applies here, and I'd like to hope the answer is 'no'.

― Andrew, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

S&D

― mark s, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

Well, they do suck now for sure. However, four brilliant albums is a lot more than most bands.

― Andrew, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

destroy it all..

― jk, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

I have to say that they were good, but "...and justice for all" has the worst production ever.

― jel --, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

Did they fuck it all up when they cut their hair?

First the attitude changed, then they matched their hair to it.

Was it Cliff Burton's death that finished them off?

Naah, you can blame Lars pretty firmly. It's his show, he writes most songs and manages the band. While Cliff was an amiable bloke, I seriously doubt that he would've been able to stop the Hetfield/Ulrich train. Remember that Jason Newsted used to play in a speed/thrash band too, it's not as if they had recruited Bill Wyman or anything...
Were they rescued from mediocrity by Bob Rock?

Bob Rock did re-engineer them into a focused (yet very bland) mainstream rock band instead of an increasingly directionless metal band. The first three albums are extremely well-written and of consistently high quality, but "And Justice For All" was really excessive, in the sense that they came up with a collection of brilliant slow/midtempo riffs but didn't have the songwriting skills to do more with them than haphazardly patching them together into ten minute monsters. It was pretty obvious that *something* had to be done (which was pretty much the consensus when it came out, I remember).

Do they just plain suck? Do they just plain rock?

While never the most innovative of metal bands, in their "relevant" years (1982-1988, roughly) they were interesting for their developed melodic themes and perfectionism. While some of their contemporaries were busy exploring and stretching the boundaries of metal ( and music as a whole), Metallica went for sophistication within the boundaries. And yes, they've always written songs with catchy riffs and hooks, which somehow makes some sense of their odd career twist in the 1990. After losing their ambition/hunger/youth, it apparently became very tempting for them to just write two riffs, catchy rock tunes in pre-existing templates than to work hard on melodic themes and complex riffs and structures. Also, I think a lot of this had to do with the excessive touring in the late 80s/early 90s, which nearly always changes bands into writing more "crowd pleaser", catchy and simple songs.

― Siegbran Hetteson, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

obviously, everything from "kill em all" (which isn't really a good example of a metallica album, more interesting to me for re-synthesizing motorhead, diamond head, priest, maiden, etc) to "and justice for all" is classic to some degree. and then somehow they went from writing tunes about how fucked america was on AJFA to writing tunes about how...one shouldn't...tread? on us? or something? anyway, they've managed to temper their suck with blandness to the degree that their music functions adequately as a background to conversation...

― your null fame, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

They've become the bloated, self-important embodiment of all they initially sought to undermine -- preening rock star peacocks, but RIDE THE LIGHTNING and MASTER OF PUPPETS (let alone THE 5.98 EP: GARAGE DAYS RE-REVISTED) go a long, long way in forgiving their more recent crimes. I don't begrudge their gradual embrace of a more mainstream sound -- they have to stay interested themselves, after all -- but S&M was as pompous and meaningless a stunt as could have been conceived.

― Alex in NYC, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

Their creative trajectory is a palindrome of Pantera's!

― dave q, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

I tried for the longest time to convince myself that I liked Metallica, but I never did outside of the songs "One" and "Master Of Puppets".

― Dan Perry, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

I agree with most everything Siegbran said and would also add that the Binge and Purge live albums are a good testament to their incredibly fierce live shows. I saw them 3 times in the 80's and they were always amazing. I think they vastly under-utilized Jason Newstead's talents which I'm guessing is the main reason he left. I'm curious as to where they go now, but don't hold out a whole lot of hope.

― Mark M, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

One of the reasons Newstead left was because of Lars' stupid "no side projects" policy, AFAIK.

― Andrew, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

Not completely unrelated: for a good laugh, find the Eurodance remake of The Unforgiven:

RPS The Unforgiven 2002 (OMB Remix)

― Siegbran Hetteson, Tuesday, 9 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

I actually like "The Unforgiven" quite a bit. "Until It Sleeps" is good too. "Nothing Else Matters" is kinda OK. "Enter Sandman", however, is truly one of the worst songs of all time. From start to finish, everything is wrong with it. (Has there ever been a lamer chorus? A more irritating solo? A cheesier riff?) The local classic rock station seems to love it to death as well. From what I've heard of their earlier stuff, Kill 'Em All didn't do very much at all for me. Even the thrashy tracks I've heard that I like from their other albums like "Battery" or "Blackened" or "Fight Fire With Fire" are somehow less impressive than they should be. Yeah, they're tight and fast and aggressive and, I guess, heavy. So what? With nothing else to appeal to me, that gets boring really quickly. And you can always make something faster or more aggressive or heavier. Which in fact lots of bands who interest me more have done in the past 20 years since. Something about these tracks is - blank. Destruction or early Voivod any day. I'll give Master Of Puppets a good listen at some point though.

― sundar subramanian, Tuesday, 9 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

"past 20 years."

― sundar subramanian, Tuesday, 9 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

Metallica was indeed not very good at the fast songs (not in the league of the rabid Germans, or the 80s Slayer/Sepultura anyway), it was always the slower, more epic and melodic tracks that worked best for them.

― Siegbran Hetteson, Tuesday, 9 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

I remember a bit from "Cliff 'Em All" where Cliff defended Metallica's slowness - he said Metallica had detractors that were like "dude you gotta play harder, faster" and Cliff kind of leers and he's like "no we don't, that's what makes us different." He was very confident when he said it, like they had a secret no one else knew. I think Cliff had the best sense of melody and pacing and structure in the band (Orion, Anaesthesia, etc.) - the balance between riffage and song went out the window after MoP.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 9 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

He was very confident when he said it, like they had a secret no one else knew.

Probably the not-so-well-kept secret that Lars already had problems keeping a steady tempo with the then-current songs, let alone if they bumped up the metronome to Slayer-tempi.

This is why on the official live albums the drumming is OK (hooray for overdubbing!), but on the (numerous) bootlegs, Lars is all over the place.

Come to think of it, this might have played a part in their conversion to slow/midtempo songs in the last twelve years...

― Siegbran Hetteson, Wednesday, 10 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

any band that threatens to sue their fans (the ones downloading from napster) is a dud. they haven't excelled beyond mediocrity since master of puppets anyhow. dud.

― dyson, Wednesday, 10 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

They single handedly ruined metal.

Based on conversations over the years, obviously 99% of the metal community disagrees with me here but its my view that they led to a) a massive humour bypass in metal, and b) they turned the riff from an overamped melodic chorus into dull thuderous chugging.

Without these 2 elements there isn't much left but an exercise in testosterone.

― Winkelmann, Wednesday, 10 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

they turned the riff from an overamped melodic chorus into dull thuderous chugging.

Black Sabbath was responsible for that (ie, percussionist palm muted riffing) fifteen years earlier...

― Siegbran Hetteson, Wednesday, 10 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

to be totally honest, it's my veiw that everything other than "master of puppets" sucks the cock of the devil.

i much prefer sabbath or voivod.

― mike bott, Thursday, 11 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

Basically here's how it is man. Metallica are the biggest mass-wank red-neck cocksuck outfit there is. I used to like these boys when I had acne cos I thought they were purists and had some integrity and dedication to what they believed in. Then I heard some early bootlegs of the band in their 'glam' phase and started to wonder. I mean James singing 'Jump In The Fire' like his balls are caught in a vice makes you think, right.

By this time, I was well out of that crap and listening to bands who actually were into music rather than the dollar and beer and titties but when Metallica bought out that album where they collaborated with the New York Philharmonic, I really sat up. What the fuck was that about?

This was a band who used to go on and on about true metal. I had been at their concerts and sung along with the "metal up your ass" chant 15 million times, arms aloft.

Looking back at their career, you can see every decision is motivated by the dollar, worse, you can almost envisage the record execs telling the band that 'Justice' is their prog album, where they can rip the songs out for +8 minutes, OK... For fucks sake, they got Bob Rock, Bon Jovi's producer in for the Black Album. What does that tell you about their motivations???

They bought out a box set 'Live Shit Binge and Purge', a couple of pisspoor live CD's and a sticker, and it cost a year's salary. Metallica are in it for the money kids. They were always in it for the money. The mass male wanking sessions that their gigs are, is about money. Money money money money money. They are a joke.

Maybe that's a little harsh, in the light of the early stuff. Kill Em All is an OK garage rock album, Lightening has some interesting shit on it and Puppets is all thrash. But however much I might like Justice (not that much) the buck stops there. Virtually everything post Cliff Burton stinks. They lost their soul when their hippy bass player lost his life. Or rather, they sold their souls.

Metallica are bullshit. And funniest of all, when you see James in interviews now, you can sense he knows it too - look out for that little smirk.

― Ozzy, Friday, 26 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

Metallica lost the plot after the death of Cliff Burton. Hetfield may be the main writer for the band, but he lost inspiration after Cliffs death and he knows it. Kirk Hammett is a good guitarist, but not a writer (not like Mustaine was), and Lars 'talk a glass eye to sleep' Ulrich is a total bullshit artist, and is to Metallica what McCartney was to the Beatles - nothing but noise. (a fact pointed out by Lennon). James Hetfield needs to find a writing partner who has something tangible to bring to the band, who challenges him rather than exploits him, (like Ulrich)and brings out the real talent he has.

Otherwise, it's back to writing self indulgent rubbish like the black album, and boring crap like AJFA

― ancient_warlord, Monday, 23 September 2002 00:05 (10 years ago) Permalink

3 years pass...

metallica's frist 4 albums were classic thrash metal works, i think there is not doubt about that. you simply need to look at how many records they've sold and the amount of bands these days that list metallica as a crucial influence to their sound. For the people who say that metallica lost their soul when cliff died, because they went "mainstream" or "softer". Cliff burton had an appreciation for all types of music, he loved bach, black sabbath and lynyard skynyard. If he was alive, he would have been exploring his creative abilities with metallica unconstrained by genre. he would have been an integral part of the load - reload era.
i think people who have a respesct for cliff and early metallica should share their respect and ability to explore their musicality.

* heres my opinion on the napster issue.

There is no doubt in my mind that metallica work extremely hard and long to create and complete a song. anyone who has seen 'some kind of monter' will agree. therefore, when napster began stealing metallica's music and making it freely available, they were stealing what rightfully should have been metallica's hard earned money. the fact that metallica are loaded shouldn't change the fact that they had every right to sue. if you steal from a poor man it's a crime, and if you steal from a rich man its a crime.

cheers from ruuben

― ruuben arksted, Friday, 19 May 2006 00:10 (7 years ago) Permalink

kill em all - 2 fast songs are great (motorbreath/ ? ) the rest average.

ride the lightning / master of puppets both have 4 or so amazing tunes - pretty much all the fast ones & a ballad a piece . the midtempo sludgefests and instrumentals suck

and justice - wthe production makes the whole thing pretty unlistenable...'one' is a good tune but MTV has killed it for me

the black album was great at the time but sounds kinds bloated to me now - but the song writing is good

don't bother with anything after that.

all the cover versions off garage days ep's suck excepting the awesome misfits mini medley

― grapple (grapple), Friday, 19 May 2006 00:44 (7 years ago) Permalink

the production on "And Justice" was incredible, perfect, wouldn't have it any other way.

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Friday, 19 May 2006 04:34 (7 years ago) Permalink

I'M MADLY IN ANGER WITH YOU

― Z, Friday, 19 May 2006 06:36 (7 years ago) Permalink

Siegbran pretty much OTM on this thread

― late to the bloom to the er (latebloomer), Friday, 19 May 2006 15:32 (7 years ago) Permalink

4 years pass...

ay ayyyyy ayyyyyyy ayyyyy

― markers, Sunday, 26 December 2010 23:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

from 2007, apparently

― markers, Sunday, 26 December 2010 23:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

Been watching a lot of stuff from the Mexico City DVD on YouTube, awesome stuff. Their records may have gone downhill, but they can still knock em out live. James' showmanship is ridiculously slick these days.

― A brownish area with points (chap), Monday, 27 December 2010 14:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

This is particularly good:

― A brownish area with points (chap), Monday, 27 December 2010 14:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

I saw them in 1999 and they actually played a pretty good set. Played "Blackened" for the first time in 10 years, did a Master/Sanitarium medley....much better than the time I saw them in 1997.

think the best time to see them live (not knowing first hand) must have been between 1988-1990, the early bootlegs had the songs sped up so much they lost much of their articulation (though the RTL material survived the speeding up the best). Jaymz said this was due to Lars' nerves typically.

It's kind of interesting listening to Metallica bootlegs between 1991 and 1993 because you can hear his voice deteriorating in quality, and it corresponds largely to when he stopped seeing the vocal coach. and you can hear the yodeling start around 1993-1994, which was probably around the time or shortly after having nodes removed.

Metallica are also one of the sloppiest live bands I've ever heard but it doesn't ruin anything about the experience really.

― Bitch, it cold outside!!! BURR (San Te), Monday, 27 December 2010 21:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

1 year passes...

Los Angeles, CA - March 7, 2012 - Metallica announced today they have tapped award-winning director Nimród Antal to direct the upcoming Metallica 3D feature film project. Charlotte Huggins (JOURNEY TO THE CENTER OF THE EARTH, JOURNEY 2: THE MYSTERIOUS ISLAND) will produce.

The film will be a marriage of narrative and concert and will star the five members of Metallica: James Hetfield, Lars Ulrich, Kirk Hammett, Robert Trujillo, and the fans. It will begin shooting this August and will be released in the summer of 2013.

"I've been a fan of Nimróds since his first Hungarian film, Kontroll, showed up at Cannes in 2004 and blew everybody away, said Metallica's Lars Ulrich. "I've watched with excitement his career in Hollywood blossom over the last few years. Within five minutes of meeting him I was addicted to his enthusiasm, his take on the creative process and his "thinking outside of the box" personality. Let's get on with it!!!"

"Metallica has always been a huge part of my life, and it's an incredible opportunity when we get to work with our heroes," said Antal. "We are going to harness the powerful and almighty energy of Metallica's live shows, inject a narrative into it, and shoot it in 3D to elevate the entire experience."

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 8 March 2012 03:31 (1 year ago) Permalink

the world needs this

― markers, Thursday, 8 March 2012 03:34 (1 year ago) Permalink

will star the five members of Metallica: James Hetfield, Lars Ulrich, Kirk Hammett, Robert Trujillo, and the fans.

haha, another subtle fuck you to Newstead?

― stan this sick bunt (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 8 March 2012 03:37 (1 year ago) Permalink

probably not

― keythhtyek, Thursday, 8 March 2012 04:20 (1 year ago) Permalink

I know, but I honestly wouldn't put it past these guys.

― stan this sick bunt (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 8 March 2012 04:25 (1 year ago) Permalink

great, mutton chops in 3D

― Bo Jackson Overdrive, Thursday, 8 March 2012 04:27 (1 year ago) Permalink

watch Lars miss the beat UP CLOSE

― Bo Jackson Overdrive, Thursday, 8 March 2012 04:27 (1 year ago) Permalink

pinch me

― meticulously showcased in a stunning fart presentation (contenderizer), Thursday, 8 March 2012 04:37 (1 year ago) Permalink

will star the three members of Metallica: James Hetfield, Lars Ulrich and those other guys.

― pplains, Thursday, 8 March 2012 04:39 (1 year ago) Permalink

6 months pass...

cool:

http://cilekagaci.com/2011/11/30/metallica-on-stage/

― charlie h, Monday, 1 October 2012 13:08 (7 months ago) Permalink

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