Taking Sides: Delia Derbyshire or Paddy Kingsland? (Radiophonic)

Taking Sides: The bloke who did the horses hooves with coconuts on Listen With Mother or the guy who did the wobble board on Watch?

tanya: The bloke who did the horses hooves with coconuts on Listen With Mother or the guy who did the wobble board on Watch

you know, that doesn't sound that bad.

I don't really know the difference between Paddy Kingsland & Delia Derbyshire. I recently acquired the two Doctor Who at the BBC Radiophonic Workshop discs, and was particularly struck by the wibbly music made by some mad old hippy for "The Sea Devils". Nice.

- Not sure about wisdom of rating soundtracks outside their visual/radio context. I got a Dr Who tape ages ago with loads of Sea Devils stuff, thought it was odd but basically no good as listening. Then saw the show on some repeat or other and was struck by how brilliantly the sounds worked - completely unlike any other TV soundtrack work.

- Separating out the work of individual voices within the BBC R.W. both makes the qn difficult to answer to anyone who isn't an expert and also downplays the idea of the RW as a collective workplace. Everywhere I've worked where stuff has to be done to order or to a deadline has had large elements of collaboration - people bouncing ideas off one another etc. Now for all I know Delia and Paddy didnt work in the RW at the same time but others did and while the attribution of individual authorship allows these people recognition it also downplays the total achievement of the unit. I think, anyway.

I also see his point about the Workshop being a collaborative effort, though virtually all the RW tracks I have are credited to one particular person, and certainly they always allowed the creative individual quite a free rein within the particular task they'd been given.

But I suppose what I was getting at with this thread was more what people prefer in electronic music more generally (not just the RW); a better title would have been

"Taking Sides: 60s minimalism or 70s quasi-prog and programme music?"

Because that's what I meant. Delia (significant - hardly anyone calls her "Derbyshire" and, apart from Tom, hardly anyone calls Kingsland "Paddy") is a very Romantic figure (all those years working for British Gas, etc.) and she was at her best left to her own devices on things like "The Delian Mode"; with a signature piece like "Door To Door" you can hear her frustration with what she has to do. Whereas Kingsland, despite the mediocre library music he did for KPM etc., was at his best writing to order - uncontrolled, he was capable of pointless Wakemanesque indulgence. I can't imagine anyone revering or worshipping him as people do with Delia; rather he'd be *admired*, and by people who don't let mediocre later periods of work interfere with their admiration. Also, I'd *imagine* (all speculative, though, this) fans of John Cage etc. might find Kingsland's stuff a bit brash and jaunty for their taste, whereas fans of relatively mainstream 70s prog might find Delia's stuff aloof and unapproachable.

Possibly a better comparison would be "Delia Derbyshire vs. John Baker", because they're more the same era of the Workshop (64-71), and then it's really Art-Pop vs. Pop-Art rather than, as this question is (among other things), pre-synth vs. first-generation analog synths.

Does this type of music work away from the TV series? Well some of it does and some of it don't. Some of the more perversely avant-garde scores just sound alienating and unfriendly when separated from their respective scenes, whereas the more melodic Dudley Simpson pieces are quite listenable on their own.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7512072.stm

"Forget about this: It's for interest only"

"Delia Derbyshire was working in the BBC's Radiophonic Workshop in 1963 when she was given a set of written instructions for a theme tune for a new science fiction series.

She turned those guidelines into the swirling, shimmering Doctor Who title music - although it is the memo's author, Ron Grainer, who is credited as the composer."

I've never heard sheet music called written instructions or a memo before.

TBF Grainer did want her to be credited as writer or co-writer once he heard what she'd done, but BBC rules prohibited it

ha ha!:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44841000/jpg/_44841608_radiophonic_reel2reel.jpg
David Butler used an old reel-to-reel tape recorder to digitise the collection

How ingenious! When you think of all the other methods he could have used, this was certainly a remarkable choice.

Also the page now says "score" and "score" not "written instructions" or "memo," ha again.

anyone know anything about these "lost" derbyshire tapes ? that bbc clip sounds amazing. haha derbyshire making a proto-techno track and saying “Forget about this, it’s for interest only”.

http://www.noiseaddicts.com/?p=21

60's techno

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7512490.stm

"Sun, Mar 07: A meeting of minds! Jarvis chatted to Sonic Boom about making music with electronic pioneeress Delia Derbyshire, the woman behind the Doctor Who theme. They also delved into all things ambient and experimental, as well as MGMT's new album."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/6music/shows/jarviscocker/

bah, interview isn't in the listen again version.

but he did mention a new short film: www.thedelianmode.com (shown in london on the 5th march, arse)

Well then:

http://www.analogsuicide.com/latest/2010/4/6/delia-derbyshires-archive-of-papers-stunning.html

ASDJKL AWEROIUAOEI AOWERHWERLKSDFJLKSDJFLKSDJ SLDFKJSDKLJFSLKDJFLKDSJLKDFJLS SDLFKJSDLFKJSDLKFJSDLKJDSF

::SPUTTERS WITH PURE UNFETTERED JOY::

OMG, the stuff that's in here.

brb purchasing THE DELIAN MODE DVD (!!!)

https://itunes.apple.com/nz/app/ivcs3/id665703927

+

http://www.thesynthi.de/data/Delia_dopesheets.pdf

bully!!!

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/154/789/535/publish-delia-derbyshires-music-from-the-bbc-sound-archive/

A petition to get the BBC to release her music..

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x18aeey_the-delian-mode-kara-blake-2009_music

Delia's "Inventions for Radio - The Dreams" has recently been issued on lp from Psychic Sounds. If you like Delia's work or odd vintage electronic music in general, don't hesitate.

Tonight BBC4 21:00
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000w6tr

"Delia Derbyshire: The Myths and the Legendary Tapes

Docudrama portrait of Delia Derbyshire, the electronic sound pioneer behind the Doctor Who theme tune, that explores the idea that this extraordinary composer herself lived outside of time and space."

I watched this. It was really quite good. Started as a documentary, became a loose drama. Used recordings of DD and readings of things she'd said, as well as interviews with others, and fictional script.

Caroline Catz was quite good as DD so I was trebly impressed when I saw that she had also written and directed the film -- crikey, that's a staggering lot of creative responsibility!

The one thing I didn't much like was a droning current sound artist person driving around and talking about her imagined bond with DD.

Otherwise I would recommend anyone to watch. It was more exploratory about sound and ideas of sound than the vast majority of TV.

I love that 'Arena' has never updated the title sequence since its inception in 1975, wonder how much Eno has made over the years.

Annoyed that I missed this. Caroline Catz likes a lot of very interesting music btw.

I'm annoyed too. Iplayer tonight it shall be. Caroline Catz is a big Zamrock fan amongst other things.

The one thing I didn't much like was a droning current sound artist person driving around and talking about her imagined bond with DD.

Please tell me you don't mean Cosey there as she's a lot more than just a "current sound artist person".

She's had like a fifty year career as an artist across all kinds of media, and she was in fucking Throbbing Gristle!

There is also a shorter documentary by a different production team called 'The Delian Mode' which might cover the same ground.

Its available on YouTube, if my algorithm is correct.

It was interesting, if a little ponderous, but DD's bright, beautiful voice shines through all the imagery.

I kinda feel that we need a moratorium on certain aspects of sound art and field recording, walking around a city with a Zoom recorder tapping manhole covers so you can plug the samples into Kontakt or Khyma doesn't make you interesting as a sound artist, ambient/drone music is rife with field recordings of woodlands or rivers and they all sound exactly the same.

was Rund-Tutt singing the swooping oo-ee-oo bit of the doctor who theme based on anything factual? it felt like they were trying to (re)lessen delia's contribution there.

Koogs: I agree, that was a pretty big contribution, fictional or not.

I kinda feel that we need a moratorium on certain aspects of sound art and field recording, walking around a city with a Zoom recorder tapping manhole covers so you can plug the samples into Kontakt or Khyma doesn't make you interesting as a sound artist, ambient/drone music is rife with field recordings of woodlands or rivers and they all sound exactly the same.

CFT's output is much more interesting and diverse than that, though. It's hardly her fault if that's the way the film chooses to present her.

Enjoyed it. hadn't taken in that Catz directed as well as starred.

Really intrigued by Derbyshire now knowing the combination of maths and music and wondering if thsi was something that would have manifest in some other way if her education had been different. Glad we have some recorded legacy for the way things turned out anyway. Though I really should dig out my copies of whatever I do have.

Is Arena doing much these days or was this an isolated one off?

Also knew that Derbyshire and Vorhaus had worked together but wasn't aware they were an item. That first White noise is really good, seems to overlap in sound quite a bit with the United States of America lp . To the extent that I would regularly mistake the start of a track by one band for being the other when it turned up on my walkman for ages.

I kinda feel that we need a moratorium on certain aspects of sound art and field recording, walking around a city with a Zoom recorder tapping manhole covers so you can plug the samples into Kontakt or Khyma doesn't make you interesting as a sound artist, ambient/drone music is rife with field recordings of woodlands or rivers and they all sound exactly the same.

very much influenced by covid safe filming rules, where you are not going to get shots of people recording busy train stations, crowds, public gatherings.

but the recording of nature/city installations is very much a well worn sound designer trope.

it does fit in with the manipulation aspects of DDs work, where a slowed down spring against a wine bottle would make a backing pad for a composition.