attention shitty indiepop singer-songwriters: learn to play/write for one instrument before you start playing/writing for twenty

is this about arcade fire?

at least they made it a point to make sure kip didn't feel left out.

bros before making interesting music.

er kit, rather.

I've had this conversation with friends a lot of times. It's kind of the musical equivalent of mediocre food with exotic ingredients.

the melodica appeared courtesy of stephen and the glockenspiel appeared courtesy of li'l joey whirlwind.

There are few things I find as embarrassing/painful as really badly played banjo

Yeah. I notice the banjo playing on most sufjan albums is ridiculously bad. He strums it exactly like it's an acoustic guitar.

I like Beirut. :(

curtis frere stephens

Bad playing and writing is bad. But different textures are good.

The premise of this thread is on some NASA levels of correctness.

monster bobby? the pseudo-outrage!

this is otm but it's kinda depressing - I do hate it when people bring in their friend who found a clarinet at the Goodwill and enjoys playing it instead of, y'know, hiring somebody who actually knows how to play the damned thing - the prevalence of this sort of thing always makes me nervous when I want to add textures to my own stuff, because I wonder whether people adding instruments played by marginally-competent friends hasn't poisoned the well for, say, actual horn charts, or cool mallet instruments like the glock

I wonder whether people adding instruments played by marginally-competent friends hasn't poisoned the well for, say, actual horn charts, or cool mallet instruments like the glock

Never!

(marimba is where it's at though)

fuck yeah, the marimba, ninja assassin of mallet instruments

i'll bet one day's session work for an ace marimba player wouldn't set you back that much.

cool mallet instruments like the glock

Is J0hn going gangsta on us?

this was something i was gonna bring up on that sasha thread. yeah, maybe more indie bands will bring the funk when they get a handle on keeping a beat with their tambourine.

there's always a place for well played horns

Olivia Tremor Control live show to thread.

But different textures are good.

Not these textures. I'm a fucking tone color whore but this shit just sounds terribly boring and mediocre and not inventive at all. I don't think these people are using these for texture experimentation so much as for a) the novelty of using so many "weird crazy" instruments to put in their liner notes so people with know they're hip and with the fact that instruments other than guitar/bass/drums exist and b) trying to sounds like some Wilsonesque indiepop maestro only sounding more like a drunk Stephin Merritt slapping his dick on a glockenspiel.

Also it's hard to make yr textures well-orchestrated when all yr wind instruments are playing in unison (with occasional random & unrelated melodica farts)

just use a fucking non-soft synth for christ's sake if you want different textures, or are you just hoping your poorly mic-ed, mixed-dry-as-fuck acoustic instruments will sound more "organic" than something that has some semblance of acoustic space?

out for now, back this evening (maybe)

Also it's hard to make yr textures well-orchestrated when all yr wind instruments are playing in unison

This is OTMFM though I have a real problem with unison in general - like it in Gregorian chant, am pretty suspicious of it elsewhere, but Curtis srsly what band are you calling out here? nb I'm just curious, as I've said before I don't listen to much high-profile indie stuff so I probably won't have heard whoever it is

i like the way Head of Femur does this.

It's mostly b). Somebody needs to Sarah Connor the Beach Boys already.

xxp

yet i liked that last grizzly bear album. so, um, it can be done. the wilson thing. the van dyke parks thing. but so rarely. and you need to have some restraint. some taste. to make it work. i think. anyway, i liked that album.

There's a saying about artists(painters)-- that they're good if there's paint left on their palette when they finish. Meaning, y'know, that they didn't think they had to use it...

everyone wants to make pet sounds and hardly anyone can even make i get around or fun fun fun.

I understand the criticism of inserting amateurish playing of these instruments, but I also think that people with a limited skill can still produce interesting music if they just think about how they're inserting it. Also, what's the problem with unison? If you have it in a live setting, with two of the same instruments particularly, it seems kind of useless, but it can still add mass to a certain part.

Session dudes rule over all

I wonder whether people adding instruments played by marginally-competent friends hasn't poisoned the well for, say, actual horn charts, or cool mallet instruments like the glock

The glockenspiel saturation is probably a result of it being one of the cheapest pitched percussion instruments available. You can get a 2 octave beginners glockenspiel for 20 bucks on eBay.

Also it's hard to make yr textures well-orchestrated when all yr wind instruments are playing in unison

True, and this is why Polyphonic Spree are liars.

Also OTM about glockenspiels being popular because they're cheap, but they can really cut through a mix, too.

guys can i just say

a drunk Stephin Merritt slapping his dick on a glockenspiel.

http://img36.picoodle.com/img/img36/6/10/20/f_dhalismm_86401ba.png

but I also think that people with a limited skill can still produce interesting music if they just think about how they're inserting it.

this is of course very true. There isn't any prerequisite to making interesting music - not even interesting ideas; it can happen by chance. But when you get a group of dudes who aren't about their business trying to sound like they actually are session musicians, then it's not likely to go well.

Personal anecdote. Couple albums back, I had a song I really liked. It was supposed to open the album. My producer let me record it, but when it came time to add overdubs, he made his position clear: this isn't up to snuff, because you're trying to play a walk-up country sort of song, and you don't have the chops for that. Nothing personal, but the guys whose chops you're trying to cop are dudes who never need more than one take to nail anything. I was pissed; I liked my song. But he was dead right, and we killed the song. You shouldn't try to play country music unless you can really play; good playing is an indispensible part of the field, and only cornius maximus wants to hear savant-country.

slightly off topic, but are the serial complainers here re: indie all college dudes? i don't listen to the stuff for the most part, occassionally hear something that's decent, but it seems like a genre that would be very easy to avoid/ignore, unless you were in college/high school. even with arcade fire, i've barely heard anything, just enough to know it's not my thing, and they're like the most successful indie act out there.

I'm just jealous of people with lots of friends who are all into the same kind of music and want to make it together. I really like people who don't see too much of a separation between enjoying music and playing it. Those kind of people are fun to have house shows with.

Also OTM about glockenspiels being popular because they're cheap, but they can really cut through a mix, too.

That's true, and that makes it a dangerous thing to employ without consideration, because it's so distinct and unavoidable that it can ruin an otherwise good song. The same people that are getting it because its inexpensive are maybe the people whose music charm is based around the singers voice and their guitar, and they're so stoked to have this new addition that they unfortunately mar their work.

But when you get a group of dudes who aren't about their business trying to sound like they actually are session musicians, then it's not likely to go well.

That brings up an awful point, a lot of these bands incorporating these amateur cuts are a group. As a group, they decide to marginalize the instruments they play well and possibly the strength of the composition to accommodate one more instrument. Also do you think you'll ever get that track out in some form?

and we killed the song.
-- J0hn D., Saturday, October 20, 2007 9:32 PM (42 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

so you "killed the song" as in scrapped it in the studio? i.e., recorded to some degree, but never released? or is it stuck on an album but you wish it'd been done differently?

killed = recorded but did not mix. tape probably still exists somewhere but will never be heard by anybody, most likely, I mean who knows if at some point some dude is writing a history of obscure singer-songwriters and runs across it but I doubt it.

TS: Stokowski recording of Ives' 4th symphony vs. Tilson Thomas recording of Ives' 4th symphony.

TS: Stokowski recording of Ives' 4th symphony vs. Tilson Thomas recording of Ives' 4th symphony.

The distinction being discussed in this thread can be picked up by people who aren't learned. I'd be interested in stuff like that, but it's a different topic I think. Is one of those an amateur symphony that got together after getting wasted at a show or something?

J0hn, out of curiosity...was the song going to open We Shall All Be Healed?

stephen, no, it wasn't

sorry to derail thread, I thought the initial story was on-topic kinda

it was on topic; derailing was more my fault, sorry

killed = recorded but did not mix. tape probably still exists somewhere but will never be heard by anybody,

IMO this is wasteful and stupid. if you really like the song - give it to someone with the 'chops'. it is a shame, if not criminal, to hide good songs away (i am talking generally here, not specifically about any of john's songs)

sore point with me. i know too many fantastic songwriters with this sort of attitude and it shits me

Trashthumb: No. Stokowski's orchestra played the premiere of the difficult and at times completely chaotic symphony, parts of which are as if Ives just threw together whatever tunes were running through his head and hoped something interesting would result. The work is palpably difficult for Stokowski's orchestra to play; one of the most exciting things about that recording is how the whole thing is barely sticking together. It's kind of a mess, but it's an exciting mess. Tilson Thomas conducted it several decades later, and by then orchestra players had improved to the point where the pieces comes off as effortless. Instead of it being about the energy of the struggling orchestra, the piece instead becomes about the odd sense of counterpoint that Ives had, how perhaps he wasn't just throwing things together (which is maybe what it sounds like on the Stokowski recording) but how there is something else going on there.

Which, you're right, is a little different from what the thread is talking about, I guess. But it's a continuum; from the perspective of the Tilson Thomas orchestra, the Stokowski orchestra DOESN'T know what it's doing, or at best is putting on a brave face when faced with material that is way beyond their skill set.

And they're both fine recordings and I enjoy them both, in different ways. If I could only take one of them to that desert island, I'm pretty sure it would be the Stokowski recording, but I'm glad to have both.

Whoa Casuistry. That's really awesome. Do you know of anything else where this has occurred? The thing about the advancement of technique I was aware of, how techniques only Paganini could play at one time are now standard, but I didn't know there were recorded examples of the progress of innate technical skill. Rad!

trying to sounds like some Wilsonesque indiepop maestro only sounding more like a drunk Stephin Merritt slapping his dick on a glockenspiel.

aka, jim o'rourke's entire recorded output.

RONG

everyone wants to make pet sounds and hardly anyone can even make i get around or fun fun fun.

except "don't worry baby" and "i get around" were the peak; pet sounds was the longer version with less to say.

now, if everyone wanted to make "don't worry baby," they'd have their sights set considerably higher.

ROOOONG

Curtis is 100% OTM throughout this thread.

srsly what band are you calling out here?

keythkeyth got it:

monster bobby? the pseudo-outrage!

-- keythkeyth, Saturday, 20 October 2007 22:55 (Yesterday) Link

the only reason this is really a problem for me is b/c I have to wade through stuff like this all the time as a music director for college radio station (and yet despite my best efforts the other music directors keep programming Rilo Kiley dammit)

I'm an open-minded guy, but this Sufjan cover of really bugs me, not technically bad orchestration but just too much, especially compared to Dylan's original:
http://www.myspace.com/imnottheresoundtrack

Christ, when I was covering local bands, this drove me mad— It's like, there're eight people up on stage and not a single goddamned one of them wants to take the lead. It's like having 15 rhythm guitarists and only one part for all of them.

everyone wants to make pet sounds and hardly anyone can even make i get around or fun fun fun.

^^^^
this is going up above my desk.

Sufjan USA

"I Get Around" and "Fun Fun Fun" are way better than anything off Pet Sounds

I say this as a huge Pet Sounds fan

Ok, I might give you "I Get Around." That song is a fucking masterpiece.

It's about Tetley's teabags isn't it?

yeah I was maybe a bit hasty w/Fun Fun Fun.

well maybe I wasn't. But if every indie rocker took their cues from "Fun Fun Fun" they'd all start sounding like the Groovie Ghoulies or some shit

this all reminds me of the dream i had two nights ago where i played bass during an animal collective show and a guy recording a bootleg was standing in front of me and had this horrified look on his face.

...

Everything on this thread is bullshit.

including me

problem is, everyone wants to make pet sounds and hardly anyone can even make i get around or fun fun fun.

While we are on the subject, I'm also annoyed at indie bands who switch instruments all the fucking time but don't really play one as well as the other.

OTM. Although there is a dude in town who plays drums for a few bands, and well, I don't mind another person in the band playing shitty drums when the drummer is also an awesome theremin player!

i'm a bass specialist. no other intruments for me, one true love.

doesn't fit the thread title (these guys know how to play their main instrument), but it still has always annoyed me:

* Bob Mould – guitar, bass, piano, vocals, percussion
* Greg Norton – bass
* Grant Hart – drums, vocals, vibraphone, slide whistle, percussion

So glad we know who played slide whistle on "The Baby Song".

i feel we've lost consideration to those who put this stuff on the sleeve because they can't think of anything else to fill up the space

"While we are on the subject, I'm also annoyed at indie bands who switch instruments all the fucking time but don't really play one as well as the other."

I had a neighbor, while I was too young to ask him the questions I should have (like "What's the name of your band?") whose schtick was that his band would switch instruments mid-song without missing a beat. Like, all of 'em. They were (of course) big in Japan, and I know they did at least a couple Huey Lewis covers.

All ended when Steve, my neighbor, fell off a cliff and paralyzed his left arm (he was left handed, which made it worse).

hubris

This thread totally encapsulates everything I love about this board.

That, and it's so OTM it hurts.

hubris
oversteening pride

BAN: The accordion

Well, maybe from these guys, but not in general.

I think, and jaymc can confirm this, that Dave in Poi Dog lied about being able to play the accordion when he started so he could get the gig.

NOw I am imagining a practice space messageboard with dozens of "Accordion Player Wanted" ads pinned to it.

http://www.stevegoldbergmusic.com/

They could at least have given Greg Norton one of these weird credits like "Yoko: Wind" to beef up his instruments line.

* Greg Norton – bass, 'stache

The latter which was apparently a big influence on Steve G.

Love the Schoolhouse Rock cartoon characters.

just to be a devil's advocate here, couldn't the lack of virtuosity be viewed as a positive thing by proponents of a DIY approach to music? "indie" as a distant offspring of punk and all that.

on the other hand...

It's kind of the musical equivalent of mediocre food with exotic ingredients.

... can't be argued with. is it that different from some of the icky mid-90s electronica that sampled music from various cultures and turned it into bland 4/4 muzak for office workers?

i don't really give a shit about the lack of virtuosity; i like sloppiness as much or more than yr average bear. it's just that 99% of the time this shtick comes off as "how do we make this boring-ass song 'interesting'? wait wait i got it - GLOCKENSPIEL!" no, it does not make that boring-ass song interesting. it just makes it another bad song with a glockenspiel.

punk has energy, plodding glockenspiels do not

Less glock, more rock.

These guys need to be glockblocked.

it's just that 99% of the time this shtick comes off as "how do we make this boring-ass song 'interesting'? wait wait i got it - GLOCKENSPIEL!" no, it does not make that boring-ass song interesting. it just makes it another bad song with a glockenspiel.

totally otm.

i felt this way the entire time i was watching beirut, except replace glockenspiel with 2 ukuleles (playing the same thing, ech)

So glad we know who played slide whistle on "The Baby Song"

ha I don't know much about the internal politics of Husker Du but I do know that in LOTS of bands credits can be a real dicey issue, gotta get everything right or there'll be complaints & resentments, etc so, like, real possibility that a credit like "slide whistle" is as likely to come from "Grant is going to throw a rod if we don't credit him with everything he played" as it is from "we must alert people as to who played the slide whistle"

Crediting Grant with the slide whistle, while accurate, was meant to just be the tiniest bit amusing I am pretty sure. I once asked him if he composed many of his songs on the slide whistle and he just laughed. There is no way he would have had some sort of hissy fit if they hadn't credited him, it was punk rock. I can see how some people might get a bit pissy if they aren't properly credited on an album but I imagine them to mainly be minor contributors.

Although I do hate that "ARP, bass, concertina, didgeridoo, euphonium, fiddle, guiro, hurdy-gurdy, joik, kalimba, lute, Mellotrons, Pro Tools programming all performed by Her Space Holiday" or what have you, I think the culpability for this trend falls squarely in the lap of Neutral Milk Hotel fans. You reap what you sow, suckers. Cue the bowed saw.

I'm so guilty of this. It's all Thomann's fault, with their cheap no-name instruments. There's 3 of us in my house, and as well as guitars/basses/keyboards (i.e. stuff we're actually competent on), we have bongos, banjo, viola, cornet, flute, and a saxophone.

I'm all for attribution, though. I'm glad I live in a world where I know that Neils Galloway played the french horn solo on The Past And Pending, even if I don't know who Neils Galloway is.

sounding more like a drunk Stephin Merritt slapping his dick on a glockenspiel
sounding more like a drunk Stephin Merritt slapping his dick on a glockenspiel
sounding more like a drunk Stephin Merritt slapping his dick on a glockenspiel
sounding more like a drunk Stephin Merritt slapping his dick on a glockenspiel
sounding more like a drunk Stephin Merritt slapping his dick on a glockenspiel
sounding more like a drunk Stephin Merritt slapping his dick on a glockenspiel
sounding more like a drunk Stephin Merritt slapping his dick on a glockenspiel
sounding more like a drunk Stephin Merritt slapping his dick on a glockenspiel

Just think about the kids who've been inspired to take up the slide whistle because of that credit.